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-   -   Breeding mixes - the other side of the spectrum. (http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=20093)

draggar 29-06-2011 16:27

Breeding mixes - the other side of the spectrum.
 
It's clear that the vlcak community doesn't appreciate fake pedigrees, mixes, etc.. trying to make their way into the breed registries but oddly it's the opposite (to some point) int he GSD world.

There is some wolf in many GSD lines (you can be pretty certain that if a GSD is working DDR or working Czech line, there's wolf in there). The kennels that were part of the ini9tial vlcak program were GSD kennels and it is highly suspected that some of the dogs that didn't stay in the vlcak program were put back into the GSD kennels and even later, some wolf was added into the lines.

But - you don't see the outcry over this, in fact, the opposite to some degree. Some people actually want that for non-military work (schutzhund, ring, etc.). Some seek out these kennels or their lines just for that.

yukidomari 29-06-2011 17:59

Please provide your sources. Thanks.

draggar 29-06-2011 21:31

You're not going to get any because you're talking about a reime that was very secretive - even vlcaks were top secret.

But - do you really think cash strapped countries like Czechoslovakia would take the non-vlcaky dogs out of all gene pools? The kennels and lines used then are still in existance.

yukidomari 29-06-2011 22:50

So.. this is just your simple assumption, then?

From my point of view, it doesn't make sense.

Plus, that's also accusing CZ kennels of inaccurate pedigrees..

Why doesn't it make sense? Well as far as I know, the CsV project was not to create a new breed, it was an attempt to make a better German Shepherd Dog. If they could have succeeded in incorporating the progeny of the outcrosses into their GSDs, the experiment would have been considered successful. It wasn't.

There is NO reason as I can see for zPs to lie and say that the experiment was a failure, and then to falsify pedigrees so as to incorporate the progeny into their GSDs anyway. It would have made more sense to simply say that the goal of their project was a success and that their GSDs are now an improved product of their project.

Besides, based on zero evidence anyway, all is purely conjecture..

Mikael 30-06-2011 01:21

Quote:

Ester z Ax Daru, Brooke's Mom, was imported directly from the Czech Republic, and is the daughter of Xero z Pohranicni straze, son of Grim z Pohranicni Straze, who participated in the World Championships (WUSV) numerous times, and took 7th place in 1997. He also was the 1997 Czech National Champion.
>>> http://www.ruffgsd.com/

http://forumbilder.se/images/2702011120652e29f.jpg
check german shepherd dog lines from Kennel Straze

>>> http://www.wolfdog.org/eng/dbase/o1149.html

>>> http://www.jinopo.cz/bloodlines.php?lg=en

;-) Best regards / Mikael

PS, I like this kind of GSD´s ;0))), DS.

yukidomari 30-06-2011 01:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikael (Bericht 391524)
>>> http://www.ruffgsd.com/


check german shepherd dog lines from Kennel Straze

;-) Best regards / Mikael

PS, I like this GSD ;0))), DS.

:confused2

Something about Grim zPs and Xero? I don't see the significance? PD is down right now too.

Vaiva 30-06-2011 09:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by draggar (Bericht 391411)
But - do you really think cash strapped countries like Czechoslovakia would take the non-vlcaky dogs out of all gene pools? The kennels and lines used then are still in existance.

Everything is seen so well from USA, isn't it? ;-)
Well, there is one thing that is not money - it is decency :lol: A non "cash strapped country" like UK still breeds liver or blue colored GSD, while in these "poor" countries people have clubs that forbid breeding GSD with no IPO training :lol: No matter about the money.

Back to topic - GSD are not wolfish dogs, they have no character similarities to CsV, so even if there is a wolf, it does not make real influence to the breed. What is this discussion about really?

Hanka 30-06-2011 10:29

Hi Draggar, I read your text a few times and I don´t understand. Dou you mean in this family of GSD is czech. wolfdog? Why?

Silvester 01-07-2011 10:28

Originally posted by yukidomari:

"Well, California is officially bankrupt" ..:twisted:

Correct - also caused by the "help" of a political dilletant who is more well-known now as being the "Sperminator"....:evil_lol:shake

So far to that - (yes,it´s very off topic...but I couldn´t resist that little joke.:lol: )

Originally posted by yukidomari:
"And the cities, at least Krakow, aren't a commercial wasteland like Los Angeles is. It actually has art, city planning, and history.. :lol:.. oh, and it's beautiful."

Yes, Yuki- I agree to you ! Krakow - just like the inner old city of Warszawa also - was reconstructed and rebuilded after war in a really exemplarily way ... It´s simply beautiful, just like you tell !

(And I think I´m able to talk about that because I´m Dipl.-Ing. for architecture by profession.;-))

I only know one city in Germany which can be compared - this is Dresden.

Best regards, Uli alias Silvester

draggar 01-07-2011 16:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by yukidomari (Bericht 391448)
So.. this is just your simple assumption, then?

From my point of view, it doesn't make sense.

Plus, that's also accusing CZ kennels of inaccurate pedigrees..

Why doesn't it make sense? Well as far as I know, the CsV project was not to create a new breed, it was an attempt to make a better German Shepherd Dog. If they could have succeeded in incorporating the progeny of the outcrosses into their GSDs, the experiment would have been considered successful. It wasn't.

So they crossed Carpathian wolves with GSDs to make a "better gsd"?

Sounds like your statement supports my claim. :)


Quote:

Originally Posted by Vaiva (Bericht 391602)
Everything is seen so well from USA, isn't it? ;-)
Well, there is one thing that is not money - it is decency :lol: A non "cash strapped country" like UK still breeds liver or blue colored GSD, while in these "poor" countries people have clubs that forbid breeding GSD with no IPO training :lol: No matter about the money.

Back to topic - GSD are not wolfish dogs, they have no character similarities to CsV, so even if there is a wolf, it does not make real influence to the breed. What is this discussion about really?

Well, as far as I know Czechoslovakia wasn't a rich country at that time, they were under Soviet occupation so most of the money went to the Soviets. So they had ot make the most of what they had. Offspring from the project who didn't make it in the vlcak project could have stayed in the GSD project, sold to other people, and bred.

I look at it the same way why we look at the Belgian shepherd and why they're so versatile. Belgium was never a rich country so unlike more well off countries (like the UK (well, techncially England) for many years who could afford one dog for guard work, one for hunting, one for herding, one for companion, the Belgian shepherd became a dog that was good in many aspects.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanka (Bericht 391615)
Hi Draggar, I read your text a few times and I don´t understand. Dou you mean in this family of GSD is czech. wolfdog? Why?

It is highly suspected in some DDR nd Czech line German shepherds that there is wolf in there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rona (Bericht 392186)
Let's agree there are lots of beautiful cities all round Europe + in the UK, naturally ;):lol:

So true. My wife and I are trying to plan a trip to Europe sometime in the next few years. Belgium to meet up with Kiri's breeder, then the Sieger tour with Fred Lanting, then over to Czech Republic and Slovakia to meet up with vlcak people. I've always wanted to see Prague. It looks like one of the very few cities in the world that has truly kept it's history and culture (but I hear it's the new Amsterdam, though?).

yukidomari 01-07-2011 17:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by draggar (Bericht 392241)
So they crossed Carpathian wolves with GSDs to make a "better gsd"?

Sounds like your statement supports my claim.

Sure, as I understand, that was the initial goal of the outcross project. Which also as I understand was considered a failure. .... It didn't make a better GSD. And I think persons who understand the nature of a wolf today, would know why, in regards to the wanted temperament of a GSD.

Course.. I've no proof to the contrary, just like you've no proof to the affirmative, besides some unnamed persons who 'strongly suspect' so.. ;)

Vaiva 02-07-2011 11:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by draggar (Bericht 392241)
Well, as far as I know Czechoslovakia wasn't a rich country at that time, they were under Soviet occupation so most of the money went to the Soviets. So they had ot make the most of what they had. Offspring from the project who didn't make it in the vlcak project could have stayed in the GSD project, sold to other people, and bred.

Yes, living in Lithuania under soviet occupation, Czechoslovakia looked like a nice dream :roll: But still it doesn't mean people there had no decency. Offsprings from the project, who weren't "suitable" were simply killed (at least most of them).

Does your disrespect for a breed come from thinking that there are similar mixes also in today's GSD? Or it is because you think that people, who created the breed, were liars and cheaters, so thay also allowed GSD-wolf mixes to become pedigree dogs?

draggar 03-07-2011 16:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vaiva (Bericht 392559)
Does your disrespect for a breed come from thinking that there are similar mixes also in today's GSD? Or it is because you think that people, who created the breed, were liars and cheaters, so thay also allowed GSD-wolf mixes to become pedigree dogs?

Yes, I have so much disrespect for the breed that ti"m trying to form a UKC club for them, I made a website just for the vlcak breed, we have one of our own and have been fostering another on and off for over a year now (and over 6 months non-stop now). I've also educated a lot of people about the breed and always refer to them as "vlcaks" and not "wolfdogs" because of the negative connotations and legal aspects of "wolf dogs" here in the USA.

I'm also trying to get ethical breeding standards set here in the USA for the breed (including several health certifications, DNA for parent to puppy testing, and so on) as well as taking a lot of time and money out of my own pocket to help develop resources (including an American based vlcak database / registry).

I'm also working with others so that a vlcak rescue "in the ready" so if it's needed we can get it into action quickly.

Yes, I have so much disrespect for the breed that I let Luna sleep on our bed and cuddle with either Pollux or Luna (or both) while watching TV. I've also taken a lot of time to help stabilize Pollux's temperament issues as well as taking every Saturday afternoon to take Pollux just so he can take some sleeve bites in schutzhund (which he loves to do).

Seriously, does that sound like someone who disrespects the breed? :roll:

Vaiva 04-07-2011 13:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by draggar (Bericht 392831)
Seriously, does that sound like someone who disrespects the breed? :roll:

Well, this side sounds nice, but we also know a part about Pollux the movie star and his breeding, no matter about the character...

Vaiva 06-07-2011 15:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfin (Bericht 393430)
i think like a sarlos :)))
yes I agree - not place for this and .... hystory is hystory, live is live :)

But Saarlos was not ment for military service, so that is why it is the way it is. But if it would be a breed still made for military purposes?

wolfin 06-07-2011 15:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vaiva (Bericht 393433)
But Saarlos was not ment for military service, so that is why it is the way it is. But if it would be a breed still made for military purposes?

i think used malinua :)

GalomyOak 06-07-2011 16:11

I guess a more modern approach would be Sulimov's dogs?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulimov_Dog

And they are successful, I think?

Morian 06-07-2011 16:18

we tried to discuss it here

GalomyOak 06-07-2011 16:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morian (Bericht 393437)
we tried to discuss it here

Is it the same thing though? I thought the dogs in that discussion were wolf/GSD crosses used for military work? The dogs I have seen in the news stories here are husky/jackal mixes, used only for sniffing bombs.

* Nevermind, it is still early here. I didn't read the 2nd page. I must wake up. :P

Morian 06-07-2011 16:40

jackal/laika i think. sulimov dog is so called shalaika. i heard that they are in use in airports (explosive detection), but... there is no extraordinary result still


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