Czech Mutara-Gate
 

hi when is the new crossings taking place? what effect will this have on the breed with the F.C.I., with new wolf blood introduced it will put an end to the czech in the u.k, & most likely in some other european countries, we have fought hard for long time to turn the views on people from the words ( wolf hybred ) to (wolf dog) it states clearly in u.k kennel club rules & asks ( have any crossings taken place from breed register closed ) i fought hard to get this added, now it seems it has all been in vain, the gene pool for the czechs is surely big enough without new crossings, problems arise in all breeds from inbreeding & the constant use of the same stud dogs, new crossings will no dought improve things in the short term , if the animals used are o.k ???? but if breeders dont work together to help each other then it will soon be back to square one & a waste of time, lots of breeds have developed from four inital crossings & are doing well i have bred dogs for 30yrs & problems can be bred out but people must work together & i think in the complete interest of the czech a health data base should be set up dogs that are bred from & produce problems should be made knowen to other breeders, we are all breeders, have i bred dogs that have produced faults ? of coarse i have, & so has everyone else !! we should NEVER CONDEMN A BREEDER or certain lines when faults appear, like epilepsy, pra, ect we as breeders should try & help to solve the problem, not cast aside others who have been unlucky, for untill the day comes that we DNA test every dog before we breed then every time we breed we take a chance that all will be o.k, best regards paul winder

Re: new crossings
 

When? :) We put the votting pools to collect our users' opinion because such crossing already took place in Czech Republic. You can find info about it in the database - there are three dogs with the kennel name "Mutara". But it's hard to describe them with "crossings" because "compromitation" is a better word for it... :oops:

Why? As you can read in the breed standard the Czechoslovakian Wolfdog is "crossing of a German Shepherd Dog with a Carpathian wolf". It is written very clear, or? ;) Now guess what the Czech breeding committee has done... They registered in the register to the breed book of the Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs three dogs which are offsprings of a white Tundra Wolf and a mix (the owner of this mix wrote in a magazine that it has the blood of a Alaskan Malamute, but the people from the Czech breeding committee sometimes say it is a GSD(-mix?), sometimes they say in it a CzW without papers :shock: ). When you will take a look on the photos of this (wolf)dogs you will see that this crossings have nothing common with our breed.... Simply said: they are untypical. And you will understand why the Slovakian Club (which is guarantee of this breed by FCI) and the German Club already send to Czech Club official protests. And also many breeders and owners in CZ Club don't agree with this "experiment". :|

But don't worry: none of the self-respecting breeders will ever use this dogs or ever breed with such crossings. So you don't need to be affraid that this dogs will ever capture the Europe. Maybe there will be some people in CZ which will decide to use these dogs but I don't think it will expand. Who would buy such crosses if there are so many nice, typical CzWs in this country...? But I promise you: to be sure we will collect info about such dogs and publish it here. So if one of the breeders will try to sell such puppies we will warn people that they are not buying a CzW but a crossing which is a wolfdog which we are common in the US and that have nothing to do with the breed called "Czechoslovakian Wolfdog".. :evil:

Wolf hibrid CAC!!
 

For those of you that didn't know, in the dog show held this weekend in Prague, "Speciální výstavy ÈSV", a canadian wolf hibrid participated to the competition and won the open class.
WHY THE F***K DO THEY ALLOW A CANADIAN WOLF HYBRID PARTICIPATE??
WHAT IS THE MEANING??
DO THEY WANT TO "IMPROVE" THE BREED WITH THESE WOLVES??
DISGUSTING
(Netiquette: I'm shouting loud!)


My whippet Alvin lives with 2 wolfdogs and was bred up together with many wolfdogs. He think's he's a wolfdog to.
Next time I go with him and I want to be judged.
He's below the standard but very brave!!
MASSIMO :bigcry2 :flop :bigcry2 :nono

The whole special dog show was a huge comedy (article soon). The only good thing there was that BOB get nice male Last Navarre. The rest was a case of connections, politics and incompetence.

I already filled an official protest to the hands of president of the Czech CzW Club about this dog show and judging the mix Ave Lupo Mutara and giving the CAC title to individual that is not CzW (I show dogs for a long time but it is the first time when I wrote an protest).

Re: Wolf hibrid CAC!!
 

This is the most crazy thing I did ever hear in dogshow world... :shock:

What are the FCI rules about these very strange things??

When it is allowed in the country of origine that hybrids can participate in dogshows like real CsW's (and even can win!), it can also have a lot of consequences for new governement rules about CsW's in other country's......... :( :ehmmm

Mijke

Re: Wolf hibrid CAC!!
 

The solution is really easy - if they will breed with this dogs and register them as Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs you just have to speak with your Dutch Kennel Club to forbid import of CzW from Czech Republic. Sure it will also hit innocent Czech breeders but it is the only way to solve this problem if the Czech owners and breeders will be not able to solve it by themselve.... :|

Now i have to say something.

For me DNA test is best solution to take out all problems with purebreed and with "mum & dad"
I strongly recommend every breeder take DNA from their dogs, (puppies) only to make it sure, it is really purebreed. And what i mean, to make it sure for future new puppyowners, not only for breeders self.
DNA test is necessary ex. to breed GSD in Germany.

Some part of puppybuyers will be breeders in future and for them is very important to know what is behind their breedingdogs.

Of course, way to take DNA test is different in every country, even i heard that in Europe some kennelclubs ask blood/hair sample from BREEDER, if owner suspect purebreed of it's dog. And that is no sense. It must take by vet, or kennelclub itself.

For me, is not so big matter is somebody have mixed dog, even if there is mixed dogs in pedigree of mine dogs, but important is to know, WHAT THERE REALLY IS. And of course, important is that mixed/pure wolves is so far that i can register/show/breed my dogs. (if i looked breeding/showdog)
Of course if i looked pet, it can be Wolf X Dog

I wonder was this show UNDER F.C.I ?
and what will F.C.I. say, as they heard what happened?

If it was unofficial show, i guess, it doesn't matter so much, but with official shows under F.C.I must be careful, we can't start to make any problems with them.

By the way, this mixed dog looked very "doggy" in pictures, for me, example "Viki Passo Del Lupo" looks more wolf, than this one, which have pure wolf as it's mother.

Hereditary and Genetic is still big mystery..


-Suski-

Susi,
what you say makes sense but I do not understand what is the sense of using CANADIAN WOLVES??
Even if they used carpatian wolves it would be strange but CANADIAN wolves I really do not understand why.
It lookes to me that they are deviating a lot from the original purpose of the breed.
You replenish the blood in a race if there is a reason.
Is it for Displasia? Do CZW have too much Displasia?
It all sounds strange to me.
First bonitation made to these hybrids.
Then winning in dog show.
Someone is up to something strange, after 4 or 5 generations they would be CZW but completely from a different line.
I could decide to take a siberian wolf, mate her with my Oliver.
Continue mating with wolfdogs and after 5 generations have a pedigree.
Would you be happy to have siberian wolf in one of the dogs I would be giving (others would be selling!!)??
I don't think so.

Surely Margo knows if this show is under FCI. I think it is because the winner had CAC.

Massimo

Ah, I just forgot the craziest thing of all.
The father ARMIN is NOT a wolfdog!!!!
He's a german shepard mix.
Isn't it crazy!!

http://lupinavlk.tripod.com/

What do the clubs of other countries think about this??
The slovaks, owners of the race standard?

Massimo

You know - some people in CZ are living in Matrix. They had a bad dream - now they say the Czechoslovakian Wolfdog is very ill breed with a lot of problems. They say it is not possible to find a Wolfdog without HD so they have to fight against it or the breed will die. It is really hard case of megalomanie.. ;) And also far away from the reality. If you look on the statistics you will know that the only problem is in thei mind. ;)

What they want to improve? No idea. When you look there is nothing what can be made better using Mutaras. And lot of things will be worser. Much worser. But the founders of this idea don't care fo it. They just want to have a lot of fun...
Thy say they want to improve HD results but I know that at last one of the Mutaras is not HD-free so this are just lies.

Good idea. Many from us have at home not only Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs but also mixes and other breeds. Maybe we should make also fun and apply them for the next Club Show in Czech Republic. I await we will get "Excellent 1" and CAC of course. Maybe I even will stop with showing CzW and go to the club shows only with mixes - I think by some judges I will have bigger chances with a mix than with a purebreed CzW... ;)

In the form they made it? It is forbidden. But the breeding committee already broke a lot of FCI rules and also the rules of the Czech Kennel Club and even the Czech Wolfdog Club. But you know how Mafia is working... ;) If a member of Czech Club writes a prostest friends of the breeding committee from second group in the board of the club say: "there are no reasons for a prostest".

It is very good solution and we can think about it in the future but now it is almost impossible to go in this direction - here it is pretty hard to make the DNA tests.
But in the case of the mixes it is easy because we know all kennels which will breed mixes, we will know which stud dogs were used for them and also who buyed the puppy. When we will know about it we will warn the people and also puppy buyers not to buy puppies from this breeders and not to cover whith the males which we used for 'Mutaras'. Now it is easy: there are two females - one by J.Jedlicka (kennel 'Seda eminence') and second by Nada Sebkova (kennel 'Mutara'). We already know which dogs will be used - after it we will publish the names here so the CzW-breeders will know which dogs they should not use.
I think it is important to warn people because it will be horrible to pay a lot of money and just get not a wolfish purebreed CzW but a Husky looking mix.

I'm also curious. It is also on the way because garant of this breed by FCI is Slovakian Wolfdog Club and they are strong against this mixes.

It was official show with CACs recognized by the Czech Kennel Club. It is really interestings that in CZ it was so easy to register mixes because the breeding committee broke even the Czech Breeding rules... Is there nobody to control it if the people are not cheating?

You right. There was a man which said he had a Collie-Akita mix and it looked exactly like the Mutaras. This dogs have thin, long legs, head similar to Akita Inu Mix (long ears by side, wrong mask). Character similar like by Husky - not possible to say trainable.

No, it is not the craziest thing. Just hear this:
the people from breeding committee say it is not a German Shepherd Mix but "old line Czechoslovakian Wolfdog". You know why? Because the owner from Armin buyed him in a village near Libejovice. Libejovice was one of the army kennels which bred CzW. So they say it is POSSIBLE that one of the dogs excaped from this kennel and was the father of Armin... :stupid

But the owner of Armin wrote in an article in Czech dogs magazine that looking on his body he thinks Armin is Malamute Mix or something like this....

Sense? There is no sence. Ah....you also forgot to write "using WHITE CANADIAN WOLVES"

Because they have no idea there is difference between CANADIAN and CAPRATIAN (EUROPEAN) wolves. We aske for it and their answer was: what's the difference. Both are wolves. :banghead

There is no reason. We have enough different blood. Just take a look on your country - you don't even need to use blood from abroad because there are so many wolfdogs in IT from different lines (maybe not good visible but this dogs are there) to breed healty dogs for a long time. The same is in other countries - the cooperation between breeders goes good and there is no problem if there is not engough variablity in one country because it is very easy to find good stud dog abroad and use him.

No. The stats look good. But I saw the stats made fo the Czech Club members and it was really a huge manipulation... :|
There is other thing in CZ - they have problems with too heavy dogs (with suspension skin, open lips, wrong movement). But is is not problem by the dogs or breeders but by the selection - some of the club judges prefer only type of dogs which is contradictory to the breed standard (sometimes I think they never saw breed standard) because they say such dogs look more masculine. :?

There is more. This mixed have already "breeding list" - so soon they will be used for breeding. Or maybe they are already covered.... :evil:

I don't think they will be ever similar to CzW. So it is possible in some years you will import a puppy from CZ which is shy and agressive against other dogs. And after 2-3 years the puppy will became ....white. Why? Lupina (mother of this litter) had wolfish colour when she was young. But Canadian Wolves differst a lot from European Wolves. They have for example special gen which is responsible for changing the colour. So sometimes black canadian wolves became white after 5-6 years. I'm surious if members of this Czech Breeding Committee will be responsible for it and if they will pay compensation to owners of all this incorrect dogs.

We already though about it. We decided we will cover our bitches with Malinois to have better working abilities by our dogs. Our friends want to coved their bitch with Collie - to get better coat. But Husky is also good - you will get by the puppies nice small ears, short tail, and nice head.... :mrgreen:

Why after 5 generations? They were judges in the open class so it means according the Czech Breeding Committee they are already recognized as right Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs.....[/url]

Hmm. I wonder same thing. Why use canadian wolves?
Was it easier to get than Karpathian?
Was it more nice than Karpathian wolf?

During these years many breed had go to "show type"
and for many people canadian/european wolf is more nice than Karpathian wolf.
For me, Karpathian wolf is one of the most important "mark" in our breed.
and makes difference ex. with Saarloos.

Dysplasia. It is very big problem, but i think, (like also many vets here) that is not only hereditary problem, but
also how you feed your bitch as it's pregnant, how you feed/keep your puppies, and how new puppyowners will feed/keep puppies.

I think, as bigger kennel, more problems. Too less time for individuals. Momentally we have 10 dogs, and 2 people to take care of it.
It is very expensive to feed young, growing dogs with good, balanced dryfood (In Finland meat is extremely expensive)
It's also very demanding to get your young dogs grow up healthy. No matter about breed (with large breeds, of course)
Most hardest thing is to find GOOD loving homes for puppies, with people who really want to listen to you with your feeding instruction, and what you can do, if new puppyowners will feed puppy on their "own way" (often couse it's cheaper) if they are too hurry to go on with puppy (ex. compulsion excercise). I have noticed also very big difference between dog livin in a house with garden, and dog livin in apartment. Difference can see how puppy is built, how puppy is moving, and often also in it's healthyness by HD and OD. (i am also breeder of Spinoni Italiano) Think about. Young heavy built dog get all excercise leashed. Walked stairs many times daily, almost all weight will accumulate to elbows and hips. Think about wolves. Free excercise on their own tempo.
I had have Spinoni (from litter of 8 puppy) mother was HD D, father was HD B, all sisters was HD C / D ,
my male was HD A, and his offsprings mostly HD A too.
I guess, HD is not biggest problem in our breed. As i solved out diseases of Saarloos,
I felt down of my chair. Such a healthy breed..? There was lot more than i ever imagine, and many other serious problem than HD.

I wonder, have CsV;s with HD D or E some problems to live with it? Or is the problem just F.C.I. index,
where best result is A? It is often so, that if you have possibility to be a winner, you must be a winner, no matter how.
Of course i wanted all my dogs to be HD A, but if i have dog with HD D without any problems, what is the difference between these dogs, except index result of F.C.I.?
Ok, that's all by now about HD. I guess, vets know much more, these were only my thoughts about this.

For me, best answers we all could get from owners and breeders of these dogs directly?

What you think about crossings of CsV and SWH? Do you have any idea how many of these are registered as purebreed?
Two totally different breed, and i can say, it is quite easy to notice mixed dog. If you are really interested in your dogs/breed
you just can see, which is not pure breed, and which is. (mostly)

Dna Test cost here about 60€/puppy, if you take test from all your puppies at same time, (if you test only 1 dog, it's more expensive)
but here it is easy. Vet take samples after had check chip or tattoo, and send samples to lab. Results will come to you by post, and also marks for every puppy's pedigree
that they really are from parents in pedigree stays.
I hope it will be easier in every country soon.

I wanted to say so much, but nobody wanted to read a book "lord of the rings" so
no more to say just now.

-Suski

still have to say something... :cheesy:

What is biggest problem at least? Character, Shyness, healthyness or exterior ?
I guess, one of the biggest problem in this case is hurry. Nowdays people want to get everything fast, and to waite 4 generations with dogs takes years. I really afraid F.C.I in this case, cause for me CsV is very special and important breed, and i really don't want to destroy it (out of F.C.I.)
We had seen how different countries can treat our breed (England, Sweden) so if F.C.I decide throw us out, what we do then? We have lot of dogs without nothing. Just pets. And all fine work of Mr. Hartl is throw away.

I must say, with CsV is more "open and honest" than with SWH. It is good to talk abot problems, and let everybody know what is going on, but i really wanted to hear opinion of Jindra, for example. :roll:

-Suski

Something really interesting is happening here!. Lots of prejudices and attitudes about purebreed vz. so called mongrels. What is positive in this special situation is that the crossing (which has so far nothing to do with a CWD as none of the parents are CWD) is not a "cover-up", but honestly exposed as a mix. This is a much happier situation than otherwise ! ??

I think it is nice to be able to see comparing "breeds" at the bonitations and shows. This should be done more often with other breeds too. We can learn so much about this. BUT THE DOGS CANNOT BE REGISTRED !!. At leas not until they have produces several generations of dogs typical in comformation and function as the "breed".

I must add that I think Suski must be a wise lady!. This HD-hysteria is truly not always a genetic probleme. And it is important to stress this fact. Even after many generations of x-ray examinations of HD, the probleme hasnt ameliorated in most breeds. Some minor HD (according to x-rays) may have serious symptoms, while some major HD can go on without reduced function. Nutrition is more important than most vets will admit. Dried commercial food is never good enough for such a large carnivoure. Also exercise is important. And do not forget (health problemes in general) that we do not know the long-term effects of all the vaccinations we inject into the veins of our best friends.

I agree with Suski that the openmindedness in the Checkoslovakian milieu is appealing to me too. I am a Saarloos-dogowner and find the secluded milieu a little hard to deal with.

fenris

Oh, no. Their data has been hidden. They appeared in the show katalog as normal CzWs - no word they are not CzWs...
You can see in the show results which appeared on Wolfdog.org the word (MIX) only because we want to show it to the people. But take a look on the official Club page and see the results:
http://www.cswolfdog.cz/art/clanek.asp?id=416
There is no word Mutara is an MIX...

And there is more - during the dog show when there was the time for the open class (with Mutara mix) the board said to the audience: "Now we make a 10 min. break so go to the bar and drink some coffee". So most of the people left the place. After few minuts (without saing anything through the microphones) they started to judge the open class and Ave Lupo. They done' good' work because only 1/3 the people were present. The others had no idea the judging is going on - so they didn't knew the Mix were judged there...

The whole story was top secret. Very tragic is, that about it was not inform the comitee of czech Club and not all members of breeding commision.
I get the informations about this "experiment" on spring 2003. I was just disgusted not only about this case, but about the situation generally (judging on shows, preference for one kennel, injuring the dogs, which owners have a other opinion, then some people from Club comitee etc.). So that I wrote oficially protest against this things. It was first time, when was information about hybrids published (see http://www.ceskoslovenskyvlcak.cz/art/clanek.asp?id=276).
All 13 points of my protest were rejected. Incl. e.g. point 1., where was explain, that Mc Namar z Molu Es have a uranoschyzis-cleft palate, whats normally disqualified heavy fault. Dog get on youth presentation P3 (very good). The argumentation from Monika Soukupova (breeding consultant and same time breeder of this dog) was, that she read somewhere, that uranoschyzis must be not a genetical fault and by Mc Namar is the cleft relatively small !!!!
On the end of point of view of Club comitee is the sentence :
"... Výbor KCHÈSV shledal stí¾nost jako celek urá¾livou, v mnoha bodech l¾ivou a roze¹tvávající Klub. Výbor KCHÈSV vyzývá Pavla Hanu¹ku aby zvá¾il svoje èlenství v klubu a omluvu Monice Soukupové...".
"... Comitee of czech Club found, that the protest is whole defamatory, in many points sham and set Club against. Comitee of CZ Club invocates Pavel Hanuska to consider own membership in Club and apology to Monika Soukupova...".
As you see, the reactions of people, which are active in "Mutara experiment" is from begin very agressive and hysteric. Its very sorry, that this people have yet a majority in CZ Club comitee.
CZ Club recieved two oficially protest against the hybrids from german and slovakian Club. To german Club send answer in the sense, that "... Mutara is experiment, which have nothing to do with CsW and results of this experiment will be publish first after his end...". More funny was situation around slovakian protest. Because slovakian Club is garant the race and it was not so easy to answer only so, like to Germany. Monika Soukupova present on club meeting folowing point of view :
" ... we get protest from Mrs. Kollarova. I calling to my friend to slovakia and he said me, that dont know about this protest. So that its not protest from Club but from privat person ...". And only two facts, which make the situation clear - protest was written on oficially paper of slovakian club - Mrs. Kollarova is president of slovakian Club !!!
You see, that whole "Mutara experiment" is illegal and deceitful case. You all can help us. Activate in your clubs of CsW discussion about it and send the oficially protest against this "experiment".

Thanks for an extensive explanation Pavel and Margo . This puts the case in an altogether different light. The case is not "really interesting" anymore - I rather say a tragedy.

I must admit that it is an interesting breeding experience (wolf x shepherd-mix), but should not be falsified as CzW. You are talking about corruption!

fenris.

let me tell you that there is so much in the world that people are doing and i gues there is no way to know about it, and even if you know i am not sure that there is what to do.
i heard of this only because the person who is doing it did not know of my involvment with the bread.
there is a vet in israel that ownes a puppy of ambra and cezer. he has a very good dog. also he claims he ownes a the next generation a mix of one of ambra and cezer with a real wolf from the israel golan hights. i can tell you this wolf is differnt from the carpatian. this man was telling all exited about how he wants to continue breeding this dog with more csw. also he wants to breed he's csw with one of her brothers (same blood) because he has one of the better csw here and because for now there is no new blood lines in israel to breed. (i'm working on that part)
so i don't know what we can do about a person like this? i already let the israel f.c.i know about this, i don't think there is anything they can do.
on another subject- i used to work with a south african breed called boerboel, they are not known by the f.c.i but from what i anderstand it is by choice. they do not want the f.c.i to get a hold of there breed so there will not be deffections in the breed. so maybe it will be better to keep csw only by the origenal club.
ray

I already did send a letter about this subject to the dutch club :D

And I did explain on the ducth forum what is going on.
I hope there shall come a lot of reply's :mrgreen:

But when individual persons wants to complain about these crazy and illegal experiment (and bringing out hybrids on an official FCI show), where can they find more info to whom they can send a letters??

I think a lot of people should want to help, but they don't know how...

Greetings,
Mijke