Wolfdog.org forum

Wolfdog.org forum (http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/index.php)
-   CzW in need (http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=85)
-   -   Pollux needs a new home (Florida - USA) (http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=18480)

draggar 29-05-2011 18:05

Pollux needs a new home (Florida - USA)
 
My wife and I have come to the very difficult decision that we need to re-home Pollux. :cry: While we love having him here, my wife needs to make room for Kiri's replacement as a service dog (Kiri is going to be 5 later this year and it takes about 2 years to train a service dog) plus we are expecting a GSD litter in about 7 weeks plus a possible vlcak litter this winter. Unfortunately we won't have the time or energy for him. :cry:

He is intact and we have his FCI papers and he is UKC registered (I think he is - we did show him in a UKC show cluster this weekend).

If you know someone who would like to adopt him please shoot me or my wife (Luna's Mom) a PM.

tupacs2legs 30-05-2011 00:09

:evil: :evil:

poor Pollux :(

why have so many puppies? why not concentrate on the dogs u already have?

draggar 30-05-2011 00:50

We're looking for a very good home for him, we're not just going to hand him off to anyone. This is also part of the reason why he's here - him being with us for the time we had him was beneficial to him.

As for the litters - the GSD litter is to see if we can get a puppy to replace Kiri as Sara's backup service dog (or the primary, that depends a lot on Luna, too, who is doing well with her SD training). We're also hoping to get 1-2 more puppies out of that litter for my wife's service dog organization.

The vlcak liter is not etched in stone yet, its just a possibility. We still have a lot of time to see how Luna develops and we want to work with our breeder to find the best possible mate for her if one is available.

Pollux washed out of the SD training due to his unpredictability. Most of the time he did great in his training but unfortunately most of the time can't cut it when someone is relying on him for mobility.

We are hoping to find someone local (south Florida) so he's still around for the occasional playdate with Luna and some competition in the show ring (he's stunning now - I'm sure the next UKC cluster he'll beat Luna).

Rona 30-05-2011 07:45

Have you already contacted Pollux's breeder? Most reliable breeders get involved in the re-homing of 'their' pups. Crying Wolf is a big kennel exporting pups to many destinations, so Edit probably has good contacts in various parts of the world. I'd start by contacting her and seeking her advice. :|

yukidomari 30-05-2011 07:57

Isn't your friend Ms. Mullaly (sp?) Pollux's co owner? Won't she take him back? What is Pollux 'unpredictable' about?

Vaiva 30-05-2011 11:03

Poor Polux... Sorry, but I don't understand this kind of possition. Well, sometimes dogs grow up different when we expect them to, but is it really a reason to get rid of him?... Dogs should be family members, especially if they are as social as CzW are...

tupacs2legs 30-05-2011 12:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vaiva (Bericht 381085)
Poor Polux... Sorry, but I don't understand this kind of possition. Well, sometimes dogs grow up different when we expect them to, but is it really a reason to get rid of him?... Dogs should be family members, especially if they are as social as CzW are...

this obviously is not the case here :(

Pollux is of 'no use' puppies are more important :evil:

i guess it is best he finds a new home where he will be loved for what he is and be part of a family!!

if only i lived closer :(

hanninadina 30-05-2011 13:28

This makes me really angry!!!! All this bully sh.t what Luna´s Mum wrote here and she was the one who encouraged the first owner of Pollux to take him, so that Luna is not alone any more. Poor Pollux now getting to third owner - and I bet that will not be the last. Why people do not believe what is written here over and over that csw are not easy dogs and not to compare with ordinary dog breed? It is a pure wolfdog!

I hope breeders like Edit will learn out of this and do not send the pups that far.

Edit does not take pups back ... - as you wrote Rona, she is a big breeder - breeding for money.

For Luna´s Mum and the first owner of Pollux - wasn´t she a dog trainer ... hahahaha - there are only one word a....es

Christian

Rona 30-05-2011 14:02

Guys, it's the worse possible moment to start another war and scoring points! There is a dog that needs help and that's what matters. Dogs change owners for various reasons, misfortunes happen and none of us can be 100% sure he/she will be always able to keep their dog(s).

Dogs disappear mysteriously, are adopted at different age, sold abroad for lump sums, etc. etc. Only because people do it quietly they go away with it and nobody criticizes them...

Neither did I like Lunasmom's and her friend's approach to selecting and importing the pup, but at least I can see open and responsible attempts to socialize, train and re-home Pollux. It's still much more fair than what many others do with "unwanted" dogs.:(

draggar 30-05-2011 17:06

Please note: Anything I say here is not intended in any way to be a negative comment or insult towards Crying Wolf Kennels. She bred a wonderful dog with Pollux.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rona (Bericht 381049)
Have you already contacted Pollux's breeder? Most reliable breeders get involved in the re-homing of 'their' pups. Crying Wolf is a big kennel exporting pups to many destinations, so Edit probably has good contacts in various parts of the world. I'd start by contacting her and seeking her advice. :|

Yes, I just emailed back and fourth with her this morning. She knows some people who may take him but we want to see if we can keep him local.

Quote:

Originally Posted by yukidomari (Bericht 381051)
Isn't your friend Ms. Mullaly (sp?) Pollux's co owner? Won't she take him back? What is Pollux 'unpredictable' about?

His "unpredictable" behavior is mainly when I'm walking him. If he's on a leash he doesn't like strangers or even people he's met before (like my neighbors). He'll avoid, avoid, and avoid. But at the dog park he walks up to strangers and kisses them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tupacs2legs (Bericht 381110)
this obviously is not the case here :(

Pollux is of 'no use' puppies are more important :evil:

i guess it is best he finds a new home where he will be loved for what he is and be part of a family!!

if only i lived closer :(

I'm glad you've read what I posted I'm also glad you're able to put it as if we're just dumping him of at a shelter.

Pollux being with us was never intended to be a permanent solution. When he came to us full time he was put into a better situation than he was in (don't worry, he wasn't abused). We also spent many months working him, socializing him, training him, taking him to schutzhund, and even starting him out in the service dog training program. To say he is of "no use" is a serious slap in the face and insulting.

Also, the puppies are just one of the reasons. As I mentioned, HIM BEING HERE WAS NEVER INTENDED TO BE A PERMANENT SOLUTION. The puppies are also being bred for a SERVICE DOG program. Sorry we feel that helping people (especially veterans) by breeding in some service dogs for a service dog program. One puppy from our previous litter is in an autism service dog program and doing extremely well.

We took him in when we knew we didn't have the room or time for him but we made room and time for him.

Or would you prefer if we re-homed one of my wife's service dogs? I'm sure she doesn't need to go out as often as she does to places like work, errands, etc..

As for the new home, my wife is excellent at finding the best homes possible for our dogs. We did malinois rescue for many years and found them all homes that fit them perfectly. Our past liters of puppies all went to great homes. She makes sure that not only is the home is right for the dog but the dog is also right for the home.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hanninadina (Bericht 381117)
This makes me really angry!!!! All this bully sh.t what Luna´s Mum wrote here and she was the one who encouraged the first owner of Pollux to take him, so that Luna is not alone any more. Poor Pollux now getting to third owner - and I bet that will not be the last. Why people do not believe what is written here over and over that csw are not easy dogs and not to compare with ordinary dog breed? It is a pure wolfdog!

I hope breeders like Edit will learn out of this and do not send the pups that far.

Edit does not take pups back ... - as you wrote Rona, she is a big breeder - breeding for money.

For Luna´s Mum and the first owner of Pollux - wasn´t she a dog trainer ... hahahaha - there are only one word a....es

Christian

My wife didn't tell her to jump in and grab the first one she sees (no offence to Crying Wolf / Edit - it just happened that way.). My wife told her to RESEARCH and find what she wants and then work with that kennel, even if it meant waiting a while. The owner wanted a Luna but didn't want to wait. Pollux was never a Luna and never will be. If he had gone to a good pet home or low level working him he would have been great but he went to an owner who had far more expectations for him that he didn't live up to.

Pollux is wonderful. We love him and gave him more than he had before. We even tried him in the service dog training program and if he worked out then this thread would not even exist but you can't have a service dog that gets skittish especially when someone is relying on him for mobility and physical stability.

I find it odd here how we tried to do the right thing to take in a dog we had no room and little time for because he wasn't in the best situation and even what we could give him was an improvement over what he had before yet I"m the one getting trashed. We didn't import him, we didn't initially adopt him. We told his owner to research first yet we're the ones cleaning up the mess.

Just because we're cleaning up the mess doesn't mean we made it.

tupacs2legs 30-05-2011 22:53

[quote=draggar;381184]

Quote:

I find it odd here how we tried to do the right thing to take in a dog we had no room and little time for because he wasn't in the best situation and even what we could give him was an improvement over what he had before yet I"m the one getting trashed. We didn't import him, we didn't initially adopt him. We told his owner to research first yet we're the ones cleaning up the mess.

Just because we're cleaning up the mess doesn't mean we made it.[/QUOTE
]

while i do not agree with a few things,i guess this paragraph makes my post irelevant,and for that. i am sorry :(

i am aslo sorry that Pollux will be onto his third home :(

hope he finds a forever home soon and is happy.


eta... 'home' and 'part of a family' does not imply shelter to me :?

yukidomari 31-05-2011 07:53

Good job taking in an unwanted dog! Hope nobody else sells your friend any other puppy of any breed, since they all have the possibility to fail expectations. Shame on her for not taking care of her responsibilities and leaving you to clean up the mess, and hope that any breeder who cares about their dogs won't sell anymore to a person who's known of the breed for a week or so! Sad all around... If I were you I wouldn't care if the person was local or not for my own benefit in show or choice of playmate... Just that he has a happy forever home ASAP so he can start adjusting!

31-05-2011 15:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by yukidomari (Bericht 381051)
What is Pollux 'unpredictable' about?

I know Draggar's already talked about this, but I just want to point out that while it's very sad that something as "small" as a dog being skittish or reserved on a leash can be a problem, with something as important as actual work for a dog, it's enough to wash a dog out of a program entirely. Of course you only hear stories of fantastic dogs helping the blind, disabled, etc, that have perfect temperaments and all that, but what you DON'T typically see are the number of dogs that wash out of those programs at various stages. Once it's known that a dog won't be able to be used as a reliable service dog, larger organizations have rescue systems in place with waiting lists a mile long to adopt the dogs that don't make it. This case is similar, only it's just one family doing the work, so they don't have a network already in place with homes lined up around the corner. It takes a really strong character in a dog to be able to work all day long and take everything in stride, and while I'm sure Pollux will make a fantastic pet, he obviously would be miserable if he were asked to work all day.

I'm sorry you guys are having to rehome Pollux, and I wish there were a way I could help! If situations were different here, and I lived closer, I would snatch him up in a heartbeat, but unfortunately, it's just impossible for us to take on another dog right now. :( Good luck finding him a good home!

Tazer 03-06-2011 00:39

Hope Pollux finds a new home soon. *Sighs* if only I lived closer.

Tazer 03-06-2011 01:27

Ref service dogs

It depends on what exactly the dog is being trained to do and how much the dog is relied on.

For example Nyle my own service dog was originaly matched to someone else. On the initial meeting however, it was decided that he wasn't suitable for that person the main reason being hiw querks.

For a man with set ideas as to what his dog should/shouldn't do, a dog with a strong left hand preference, a dislike of right turns, a temperament which is on the nervous side and the odd psycho motor seizure, wasn't going to work.

So they offered him to me instead, clearly explaining what his issues were, though the seizures were something that appeared after I got him. Whilst he's not my first dog, he's my first service dog, obviously they thought I could handle him.

He has improved given time and encouragement but no, he isn't always the easiest dog to work with. However, I knew this when I took him on.

Perhaps Pollux could still be a service dog, just to someone who is 'less disabled' and or can/is prepared to work with/tolerate the querks for want of a better word.

draggar 03-06-2011 11:56

Pollux could make a good emotional support dog (in a nutshell they just need to be a loving and good dog - he's got the loving part down! :D ).

Vaiva 03-06-2011 14:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vicky (Bericht 381520)
I know Draggar's already talked about this, but I just want to point out that while it's very sad that something as "small" as a dog being skittish or reserved on a leash can be a problem, with something as important as actual work for a dog, it's enough to wash a dog out of a program entirely. Of course you only hear stories of fantastic dogs helping the blind, disabled, etc, that have perfect temperaments and all that, but what you DON'T typically see are the number of dogs that wash out of those programs at various stages. Once it's known that a dog won't be able to be used as a reliable service dog, larger organizations have rescue systems in place with waiting lists a mile long to adopt the dogs that don't make it. This case is similar, only it's just one family doing the work, so they don't have a network already in place with homes lined up around the corner. It takes a really strong character in a dog to be able to work all day long and take everything in stride, and while I'm sure Pollux will make a fantastic pet, he obviously would be miserable if he were asked to work all day.

Oh, sure, but if you are planing to have just a servise dog (with a possibility to give him away, if he or she won't be suitable for this kind of work), maybe you should FIRST choose another breed! CsW are known to be "one person's dog", the change of the owners could be more difficult for them, etc.
SECOND - if you still want a CsW to be a servise dog, please, spend some time to study the lineages, to contact various breeders in various countries, etc. Just buying a puppy from the first one who agrees to sell it to you in this case is a Very Bad Idea.
Of course, these words will not change the situation of Pollux - but maybe other people will read it before buying a "future service dog" from a :roll: farm, just because "it looks sooooo beautiful"...

GalomyOak 03-06-2011 16:53

I don't think Pollux was ever selected to be a service dog. The lady who originally imported him (with warnings from me, Ed, and Sara against rushing, and how some CSVs just weren't cut out for this type training) intended to train him in Schutzhund/IPO type work. Sara originally purchased Luna from me, with the possibility to use her for service, conformation, and whatever type of training suited her (Luna does herding, obedience, a little protection, and she is also in the training phases of service work - and doing well, from what I understand) - but mostly as a loved pet, which she is. Sara, while concerned, was excited for her friend buying a puppy and tried to support her through the problems she had with Pollux from the early days; I don't imagine she ever thought Pollux's owner - her friend - someone who works with dogs, would do this to Pollux, it's very disappointing on many levels. I think Ed and Sara, feeling bad for Pollux, wished to get Pollux in as good a place as they could for his eventual "forever home" - with training, socialization and love. At the same time, Sara depends on her dogs for...well, her life. I think she recognizes that she can't give Pollux all that he needs in her home, living only as a pet beside the dog(s) she currently uses for service work, as well as the old retired ones (they don't live on a huge farm where they can keep ten dogs outside - all of their pets live in their house). I think now she wants to make sure he does go somewhere appropriate to his needs, where he can live inside as a much loved pet and companion, without huge training expectations, for the rest of his life.

It is an unfortunate situation, not one that I am happy about...and I do wish breeders in Europe would think very, very carefully before sending a dog to someone far away who they have never met, or that has no reference, at the very least, from an experienced CSV owner. Crying Wolf is definitely not the only breeder who is "guilty" of this. We have CSVs on this side of the world from Germany, Belgium, Lithuania, Czech Rep., Slovakia, Italy...all sent "blindly". I also wish new owners would go to see where and how their puppies are really raised, in what conditions, how the parents are, and of course, look at lineage. I think most new owners don't realize how important these things are for CSVs, maybe even more than other breeds. I feel certain that Pollux is not the first CSV with the need to be rehomed as an older dog :roll:...Ed is maybe just one of the more honest, "open" and vocal people to discuss this on the forum.

draggar 03-06-2011 18:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vaiva (Bericht 382602)
Of course, these words will not change the situation of Pollux - but maybe other people will read it before buying a "future service dog" from a :roll: farm, just because "it looks sooooo beautiful"...

That is Pollux's savin grace - he's gorgeous. Physically he's striking.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GalomyOak (Bericht 382648)
I don't think Pollux was ever selected to be a service dog. The lady who originally imported him (with warnings from me, Ed, and Sara against rushing, and how some CSVs just weren't cut out for this type training) intended to train him in Schutzhund/IPO type work.

Much to our surprise he enjoys "the game" out on the schutzhund field. I'm even woring on getting him to bark on command and me might, just might, be able to do a bark and hold someday.

Quote:

Sara originally purchased Luna from me, with the possibility to use her for service, conformation, and whatever type of training suited her (Luna does herding, obedience, a little protection, and she is also in the training phases of service work - and doing well, from what I understand) - but mostly as a loved pet, which she is.
Luna not only exceeded our expectations with her SD training, she far exceeded our wildest dreams, she's doing great and we think she might actually enjoy it, although she won't admit it. ;) SHe did enjoy Cape Canaveral and Disney last month, though!

Quote:

I feel certain that Pollux is not the first CSV with the need to be rehomed as an older dog
Older? He's only 15 months! :)

tupacs2legs 03-06-2011 20:18

imo 15 months is young in a breed such as this,and a difficult time for a young male that could be going through another 'fear stage' (and teenage)as well as changing homes :(

draggar 03-06-2011 20:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by tupacs2legs (Bericht 382698)
imo 15 months is young in a breed such as this,and a difficult time for a young male that could be going through another 'fear stage' (and teenage)as well as changing homes :(

Luna went though a regression (for the lack of a better term) around 12-14 months. Pollux seemed to go though the same at the same age, we think he went out of it about a month ago.

The regression wasn't fun with either but they both came out a better dog. We're writing it off as part of the maturing process.

yukidomari 03-06-2011 21:17

How important to you is it that he stay in proximity for your needs?

Surely it can't be so hard to find a nice home for a free dog of a young age and a rare breed somewhere in the USA (or even beyond).

Vaiva 03-06-2011 22:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by GalomyOak (Bericht 382648)
I We have CSVs on this side of the world from Germany, Belgium, Lithuania, Czech Rep., Slovakia, Italy...all sent "blindly".

You mentioned Lithuania, I know one dog sent from our country, could you please be more exact about the negative point in which he was mentioned?

Anyway, this sad story is also a lesson for European breeders...

Mikael 05-06-2011 00:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by draggar (Bericht 382706)
The regression wasn't fun with either but they both came out a better dog. We're writing it off as part of the maturing process.

That was what i did say :p Do not worry it will pass ;)

Very best regards / Mikael

GalomyOak 05-06-2011 05:03

I didn't speak of Lithuania (or any country, or breeder) in a negative reference. In fact, my first dog was sent to me - blindly - and I would hardly say it was a negative experience. The vast majority aren't negative experiences, and the new owners love their dog for the rest of it's life. I only meant that should a time come that a dog does need to be rehomed, it is very difficult to fix the problem as a breeder across an ocean. I have helped in two situations so far - one in the US, one in Canada. In one case, the breeder was able to arrange for the young dog/puppy to return to Europe. In the other case, I worked with the breeder to find a suitable home (with someone who already owned a CSV) in another state. I know of another case, many years ago, in which a lady (from the Czech Rep., married to an American man) imported a CSV, from a respected kennel, and nice breeding in CZ, and soon determined the young female was "too wolflike" for her family once she had small children. She had spent, as I understand, a lot of time in Europe around the breed. This dog was not so fortunate...I think it was forced across the rainbow bridge. :|

My point is, breeders must make a careful decision about how far is too far to rescue a dog if it needs help. They also need to think about how they will accomplish this, especially if they become on bad terms with the new owner. I think mistakes can be made to sell a puppy, regardless of distance, what country the person is from, whether someone meets, or maybe even "knows" the new owner - or maybe even a death of the owner, or accident, or other such things. A good breeder should be willing to travel to help and take back the dog. Maybe a trip to Spain, or even Israel, or the UK, or who knows is possible to rescue a dog. But it becomes even more difficult across an ocean. It was my only point.

Rona 05-06-2011 07:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by draggar (Bericht 382666)
That is Pollux's savin grace - he's gorgeous. Physically he's striking.

Could you post any photos of him? No that I doubt about it, but a photo would "materialize" him, and maybe increase his chances for a good permanent home ;)

I'd also put him in the section "Adult CSV looking for new homes" This thread will drop at some point and there are new people coming to this site.

Quote:

Originally Posted by draggar (Bericht 382666)
Much to our surprise he enjoys "the game" out on the schutzhund field. I'm even woring on getting him to bark on command and me might, just might, be able to do a bark and hold someday.

I'm not a specialist in training, least of all in schutzhund, but from people who have trained their dogs and from what I read on the Polish WD (written by a specialist trainer in this sport) I've understood it's suitable for self-confident dogs with even temperament. The dog should undergo all stages of the training and learn not only to hold/attack, but also to control itself. Otherwise, especially when young, it may get even more confused and unpredictable. Not knowing the future of Pollux, what kind of family he'll stay with and where he will live, don't you think it might be a bit risky to start such kind of training at his 'sensitive age'? CSV mature between they're 2,5-3.
Just recently I've heard of a nice young vlcak that started schutzhund trainings with his owner, but didn't "finish the course" ;). Later he was adopted by another family (it was out of life necessity, the owner was devastated she had to part with him). Probably the two factors combined caused that in new situtations he started 'playing the schutzhund game' in the street with accidental pedestrians, which he never did before the trainings :(

I also think that CSVs being quiet creatures is their great asset for many owners (including myself:p). What's the point in teaching him barking if you don't know his new owner's prefereneces?

Don't treat this as criticizm, as I know little about schutzhund. These are just a few reflections based on common sense and on reading you post .:)

GalomyOak 05-06-2011 13:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rona (Bericht 383025)
I also think that CSVs being quiet creatures is their great asset for many owners (including myself:p). What's the point in teaching him barking if you don't know his new owner's prefereneces?

I wish someone would convince my dogs of this! :oops::) I taught my female to "speak" on command...but mostly just so I could also teach her a gentle command to be quiet. If she gets jealous, or sees a squirrel, or there is a visitor...like all strong women, she has no problem speaking her mind! And being a CSV, she decided to teach all of my other dogs to...talk.:roll:

draggar 05-06-2011 18:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rona (Bericht 383025)
Could you post any photos of him? No that I doubt about it, but a photo would "materialize" him, and maybe increase his chances for a good permanent home ;)

I'd also put him in the section "Adult CSV looking for new homes" This thread will drop at some point and there are new people coming to this site.

Here are some (not so good) pictures (Pucktures?) we took of him the other day:

http://s118.photobucket.com/albums/o...r/pets/Pollux/


Quote:

I'm not a specialist in training, least of all in schutzhund, but from people who have trained their dogs and from what I read on the Polish WD (written by a specialist trainer in this sport) I've understood it's suitable for self-confident dogs with even temperament. The dog should undergo all stages of the training and learn not only to hold/attack, but also to control itself. Otherwise, especially when young, it may get even more confused and unpredictable. Not knowing the future of Pollux, what kind of family he'll stay with and where he will live, don't you think it might be a bit risky to start such kind of training at his 'sensitive age'? CSV mature between they're 2,5-3.
Right now he is in the full "gape" aspect of it. To him the sleeve is a toy and he wants the toy (he's on a padded puppy sleeve now). He gets the toy, he runs around with it, and then he drops it (and on occasion rolls around on it). The helper gets the sleeve, taunts him with it, and then the game starts over again. He's not serious with it at all, to him it is just playtime with him, me, and the helper.


Quote:

Just recently I've heard of a nice young vlcak that started schutzhund trainings with his owner, but didn't "finish the course" ;). Later he was adopted by another family (it was out of life necessity, the owner was devastated she had to part with him). Probably the two factors combined caused that in new situtations he started 'playing the schutzhund game' in the street with accidental pedestrians, which he never did before the trainings :(
IMO the dog didn't have the right training, or at least the wrong training at the wrong time. Pollux hasn't done any "protection" part of it and he doesn't see it as protection - he just sees it as playing. Also, any good schutzhund dog should know when to "turn it on" and when not to, it seems this dog did not.

Our club is very good and non-political (very few of those here in the USA). They are not DVG or USA affiliated (hence no politics) and their primary focus is on the dog. I've seen clubs try to ruin dogs just so they can justify their own methods and get more $$$ for training and others just flat out refuse dogs into their club that aren't good (or just insult the dog until the owners leave).

Quote:

I also think that CSVs being quiet creatures is their great asset for many owners (including myself:p). What's the point in teaching him barking if you don't know his new owner's prefereneces?

Don't treat this as criticizm, as I know little about schutzhund. These are just a few reflections based on common sense and on reading you post .:)
Quiet? Vlcaks are a quiet breed? You've never met our Luna. :rock_3 Pollux, though, I'm trying to train him to bark on command. He never barks unless he sees other dogs (like Luna) go running past his crate and he wants to come out to play or when he and Luna are playing a lot, then they get chatty. Other than that, he's very quiet.

Hanka 05-06-2011 18:54

Why has this puppy this type of collar? Has he any serious problem? Or?....

Rona 05-06-2011 20:05

Thanks Ed for the explanations.8)

Well, I know quite a few quiet vlcaks :)

Mikael 05-06-2011 20:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by draggar (Bericht 383137)
Here are some (not so good) pictures (Pucktures?) we took of him the other day:

http://s118.photobucket.com/albums/o...r/pets/Pollux/

Is there a reason way you want to show him like this...
Whit the tail between the legs I mean, is he very shy ???

If not, I would try to get better photos fast...

It´s hard to find a grown Vlcak a good home, even a really good one, if they are shy it is even harder...

Can you give us all a smal presentation of how he is ???

Very best regards / Mikael

Backman 05-06-2011 22:03

Okay, I do not usually wirte here on forum, but this is almost too much, on international forum too....:shock:

First If you want a dog, have thought over it and is ready to take a new family member, then get a Golden Retriever or som other nice pet.

If you really are not like all other friends and people, are ready to offer your life, your world for to socialize a little adorable CzW puppy, share moments of love, hate and all in all understanding, think over it not once, not twice, but you should almost be sleepless of worrying am I the right person for this breed. Because there is seldom falut in puppy or young dog, it is in 95% of the cases in the upper end of the leash the problems start.

I have followed here Pollux story, from importing, from blackmailing Edit for sending dog, to successful training news and good news. And suddelly he is searching for new home. Has something happend, if he is unpredicatble in your eyes?


To EARN the trust of a wolfdog is not like owning a Golden Retriever or some other nice regular pet.
Maybe you should think twice to search for him a new home now, because young age, insecure of the whole world, lost home changeing wolfdog is not the best dog to send on to a new home. The pictures tell me he needs time, and that collar, what is that ? Is he a monster or is it beautiful to have lot of chains around dogs neck????? :rock_3 If he is shy, it is your responsibility to give him time, YOU CAN NOT GET A CZ WOLFDOG
and think he will be perfect service dog, far from all CzW are suitable for working. And the buyer should have read so much about the breed that they know what dogs these are.

This is why I tell people that are interested in this breed for whatever reason, work, family, to get a regular pet, because they do not know anything about them, and if told, some seem not to understand.

The ones that come visit me and my dogs several times, spend time, show me that they are "dogpeople, and loves wolves and are able to understand the breed, those are people that could be future puppy buyers.. and even how much you trust puppy buyer and theur sotires bla bla bla.. they can be bad homes.
But Somebody helping somebody to get a CzW and has seen maybe only a few dogs of this breed can not know what they are buying.

I imported my first CzW without seeing it in february 2007, and I had never seen in real life A CzW. It was not easy, but I was very much prepared for whatever was to come with shy puppy. IT TAKES TIME, some dogs (like people too) develop slower, might need more soft training and a lot of understanding. Today I have 6 CzW, all different in heart and soul, all very kind, and some more good for training, some not at all, but ALL OF THEM ARE BOUGHT TO BE LOVED FAMILY MEMBERS!
And each one of them means the world to me ! no matter if little shy or little bit unpredictable in some situations in young age...

A Czechoslovakian Wolfdog is in my eyes adult and stabile in the age 3,5-4 years. So dont give up..

This is why my heart breakes when reading these kind of stories on international forum. A lot of dogs change homes, a lot of dogs are beeing put to sleep, because owners do not know what they are buying and breeder make mistake and sell/place puppy to bad homes. And I find that very sad :(
But so it is, and nobody is perfect breeder or buyer,

I Hope you could be little more mature and give him some time, and remember, that even though you have other dogs that are able to be trained to service dogs, Pollux is also a pet, that needs lot of love and understanding for what he is. Remember he is young, give him time, please think of what a re-homeing again would make him more shy and insecure, it is not easy for all individuals of CzW to trust people, and if he cant have a "home" a safe place where to be relaxed and feel loved, he might maybe never be able to trust people like others.

I have re-homed a puppy (1 year) CzW that had lived in bad conditions, and he is today a happy family dog, but will probably forever be very insecure and shy for strangers. And I had him for a few months to see what he was as 11 months old, and I saw potential and understood him, I decided he could move,he was very afraid of everything, even that the sky would fall over him. He could only move to special home, with a girl that has very big heart an a great love for wolves, she understand him, they are now best friends. If I had not found her, I would not have given him away, because it is my responsibility, my dog.

But I think regular dog trainer for GSD or other working dog breeds are too hard to understand our sensitive breed. They are not problem dogs, they need understanding and a very strong leader in mind, to be a safe friend if shy.
Everything is possible, but please think twice. It is YOUR responsibility. All your writeing about him makes everything so un nessecary WORL WIDE. Isn't it most important to concentrate on the dog, not telling the whole world you have a problem on this so "friendly" forum.............:rock_3

http://i20.servimg.com/u/f20/14/00/08/27/h110.jpg

Best Regards,
Jenny
Finland
www.foreverwolf.nettisivu.org

draggar 05-06-2011 22:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanka (Bericht 383150)
Why has this puppy this type of collar? Has he any serious problem? Or?....

We had a problem with him trying to run back into the house (to the point of almost dislocating shoulders). The pinch collar stopped it plus we also feel it is the most secure type of collar you can get that isn't a choke (we don't like to use choke collars).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikael (Bericht 383177)
Is there a reason way you want to show him like this...
Whit the tail between the legs I mean, is he very shy ???

If not, I would try to get better photos fast...

It´s hard to find a grown Vlcak a good home, even a really good one, if they are shy it is even harder...
Can you give us all a smal presentation of how he is ???

Very best regards / Mikael

His tail is down but not completely tucked but also, he's smiling in the pictures. He's odd, he's very outgoing at the dog park, has even walked up to strangers and kisses them at the dog park.

Watch the videos of him at schutzhund, you'll see a confident and playful dog.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Backman (Bericht 383197)
I have followed here Pollux story, from importing, from blackmailing Edit for sending dog, to successful training news and good news. And suddelly he is searching for new home. Has something happend, if he is unpredicatble in your eyes?

Do I really need to answer this question again? Please go back and re-read what I've posted before you start ranting again. Read why he is at our home now and why we're the ones taking care of him.

Seriously, I'm on the verge of asking the admins to delete this thread. I'm starting to think it was a waste of time asking for help here.

Mikael 05-06-2011 23:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by draggar (Bericht 383214)
His tail is down but not completely tucked but also, he's smiling in the pictures. He's odd, he's very outgoing at the dog park, has even walked up to strangers and kisses them at the dog park.

Watch the videos of him at schutzhund, you'll see a confident and playful dog.

OK, can you put up that video (instead of the photos) it might help him to get a new home :roll:

Best regards / Mikael

PS, that kind of collars are forbidden by law i many EU country´s ( if not all) that is way people are woundering... Here in Sweden it is animal cruelty to use them, if you mean this kind >>> http://www.google.se/search?hl=sv&rl...pinch%20collar , DS.

draggar 05-06-2011 23:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikael (Bericht 383220)
OK, can you put up that video (instead of the photos) it might help him to get a new home :roll:

Best regards / Mikael

You mean like here? ;)

http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=18713

Quote:

PS, that kind of collars are forbidden by law i many EU country´s ( if not all) that is way people are woundering... Here in Sweden it is animal cruelty to use them, DS.
That's a different debate for a different thread. :)

Mikael 05-06-2011 23:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by draggar (Bericht 383222)

YES ! thats better :p

Thanks / Mikael

tupacs2legs 06-06-2011 00:42

[quote]
Quote:

Originally Posted by draggar (Bericht 383214)
We had a problem with him trying to run back into the house (to the point of almost dislocating shoulders). The pinch collar stopped it plus we also feel it is the most secure type of collar you can get that isn't a choke (we don't like to use choke collars).


oh im sure it stopped it :evil: :evil:

re secure collars,i have siberian huskys,escape artists to the extreme! no need for prongs with them...a safe 'racing' collar which doesnt choke or hurt is what i use!

or a simple 'head collar' whilst training..pinch are for the lazy( and cruel )that want a quick fix!

time, patience,trust and understanding is what dogs need :(

tupacs2legs 06-06-2011 00:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by draggar (Bericht 383214)
Seriously, I'm on the verge of asking the admins to delete this thread. I'm starting to think it was a waste of time asking for help here.

i guess people are just passionate and protective about the breed,i dont think its personal,your 'friends' imo had money to burn and they bought their latest 'whim' and got bored...then passed the problem on,and sadly its you having to deal with it and what comes with it.

i really hope he finds a home with someone that understands him and that he stays there forever this time....i wish you and him luck in doing this.

draggar 06-06-2011 19:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by tupacs2legs (Bericht 383244)
oh im sure it stopped it :evil: :evil:

re secure collars,i have siberian huskys,escape artists to the extreme! no need for prongs with them...a safe 'racing' collar which doesnt choke or hurt is what i use!

or a simple 'head collar' whilst training..pinch are for the lazy( and cruel )that want a quick fix!

time, patience,trust and understanding is what dogs need :(

Your life must be pretty perfect to have to come here to dictate to others how they should live their lives while putting them down in the process. Do I really need to get into Pollux's entire history just to justify everything? Do you know what we've done? No. Do you know how much time and energy we've spent on him? No. So why are you coming out as an expert on his situation? Every dog is different and just because something works with one dog doesn't mean it'll work with all dogs.

Also, I now hope that the admins DO NOT delete this thread so that when new people come here they'll see the trule colors of the community. We tried to do the right thing and after months of reabilitating Pollux we post that we're looking for a new home and instead of help I get ridiculed and everyting is being analyzed - as well as people making false assumptions about us and Pollux's situation.

At least now I know who would be willing to help in the future and who will just compalin. I guess the old saying is true, no good deed goes unpunished.

Added: Also, I'm done defending myself. Don't expect a response if you post anything other than help.

yukidomari 06-06-2011 19:37

Well, sorry you felt attacked. I think some were really trying to help.

I think, for one, that Pollux ought to be fixed and re-homed with whatever nice pet home you can find - anywhere in the US, or anywhere that wants him and can provide for him, really. Can you really not find a nice home for him? He's a young, healthy (I assume), free dog with some basic training behind him. On top of that he's of a rare breed. Maybe put him on Petfinder. I've found nice homes for many 'less desirable' fosters that way, ones of a common breed (or even mix), old, ill health, etc.

I don't think it's especially fair to him to 'hold out' on a new home waiting for one in your area which would be convenient to you, especially since things seem to be getting busy with your other dogs.

Gypsy Wolf 06-06-2011 19:52

I do feel like I need to jump in here and perhaps clarify the situation. I got Luna from Marcy KNOWING the commitment it takes to raise a dog - Service Dog or not - and KNOWING what my limits are when it comes to how many dogs I can manage in my home.
My friend saw Luna and how amazing she is and wanted one of her own NOW. So yes, despite all of our telling her to take her time and research, she decided on Pollux.
In the beginning everything was fine and as she has been training dogs for years, I figured it was the perfect placement - yes, he might be different that she was used to but challenges teach us, right?
Well, after a while, she decided she was not interested in working with him any longer and he was relegated to a kennel in the back yard.
That is where we came in - I suggested we take him for a while and work with him - FOR A WHILE. I felt responsible for him as I had introduced my friend to the breed and if I could work with him and help him, he could go back to her better off.
So he came into our home and I worked him like we work any of our other dogs - some Service Work, some Schutzhund, some Conformation training, etc.
He has made some huge strides under our care and training and he is an amazing dog - every achievement makes me proud. But Pollux is not our dog, I have all the dogs I can handle on my own. I WISH I had the time, room, etc., to keep him ourselves, but we don't, and it isn't fair to my other dogs, either.
There is a saying here "no good deed goes unpunished" and it's painfully true here - we are trying to do our best by a dog that is not even ours and we are getting attacked for it.
It's not our mess to clean up, but he has fallen into our lap and we want to do what is fair for him.
Fair for him would be a home where his owners have more time than I do to work him through his issues.
At least I will know, personally, where he will go... in someone else's hands, I have no idea where he might be placed.
We are Pollux's foster home - we have plenty of experience being "interim" homes for rescue dogs, so your support would be more appreciated than your criticism. We are trying to improve his home situation - don't you think we feel awful having seen his situation deteriorate? I didn't encourage my friend's interest in the breed in order to create a problem - obviously had I any inkling of what would happen, I wouldn't have helped her find him in the first place... but she likely would've found another one on her own, and becasue I feel I am a steward of the breed, it is my duty to try and help a vlcak in need. So go ahead and criticize me if you want, but ask yourselves what you would do in my place...

draggar 06-06-2011 20:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by yukidomari (Bericht 383436)
Well, sorry you felt attacked. I think some were really trying to help.

I think, for one, that Pollux ought to be fixed and re-homed with whatever nice pet home you can find - anywhere in the US, or anywhere that wants him and can provide for him, really. Can you really not find a nice home for him? He's a young, healthy (I assume), free dog with some basic training behind him. On top of that he's of a rare breed. Maybe put him on Petfinder. I've found nice homes for many 'less desirable' fosters that way, ones of a common breed (or even mix), old, ill health, etc.

I don't think it's especially fair to him to 'hold out' on a new home waiting for one in your area which would be convenient to you, especially since things seem to be getting busy with your other dogs.

Some poeople do seem to want to help but it's the lynch mob mentality others have provided.

As for Pollux, we are going to hold out for the perfect home for him (and that he's perfect for the home). Yes, we've love it if he was local but if the right home pops up and it's not local then so be it. Vlcaks are not an easy breed and many people think they are busy quickly learn otherwise. They need to realzie that it can be a highly energenic breed with even higher stamina (he and Luna will play for hours and hours!). One advantage of him being local is that my wife would still be able to work on him (training) and they could go to our schutzhund club where they know him and we know they concentrate on the dog's development (and not politics).

The home should be willing to work him in schutzhund, even if it is just the play aspect. He loves it and it's been a huge confidence builder for him (and the socalizatrion time doesn't hurt, either). He loves to go to parks where he can run around off a leash (like a dog park) - and he runs fast, faster than many greyhounds we've seen. He loves his people and loves to lie on the couch and cuddle with his people (well, more like like ON TOP of his people, he thinks he's a lot smaller than he actually is). He's michievious (sp?) and knows how to get into trouble so he'll also need a lot of supervision especially in the beginning. He is a lot smarter than he'll lead you to believe, too.

tupacs2legs 06-06-2011 21:24

[
Quote:

QUOTE=tupacs2legs;383246]i guess people are just passionate and protective about the breed,i dont think its personal,your 'friends' imo had money to burn and they bought their latest 'whim' and got bored...then passed the problem on,and sadly its you having to deal with it and what comes with it.

i really hope he finds a home with someone that understands him and that he stays there forever this time....i wish you and him luck in doing this[/QUOTE
draggar

ive highlighted the bits of the post of mine you choose to ignore.....

i am not being judgemental or a 'lynch mob' i even apologised earlier on in this thread,i understand the situation you are in and it doesn't bear thinking about where pollux would be without you.

wont agree with pinch collars though,but as you rightly said thats for another thread :)

Gypsy Wolf 06-06-2011 22:55

Pollux will stay with us until the right home is found - I am not "holding out" for a more "convenient" home, but rather a local home to be able to help with his adjustment and training, not to mention the fact that I can't do a home check in Idaho.
My biggest worry is that BECAUSE he is a rare breed - and stunningly gorgeous - he will not necessarily attract the right people. At least if he is relatively local, I can sort of keep an eye out and help as needed, or even take him back... I have visions of approving a home in Idaho only for the people to dump him in their local shelter after a month or two...
And there are very few folks who could do a home check for me in Idaho and be truthful about the nature of the breed - so few people have experience.
He has a place here in our home for now - even though it stretches our ability and I feel badly that he is 1 of 5 dogs instead of 1 of 2 or 3 (he needs to be in a multi-dog home), and he does not lack for attention, love or spoiling (every one of the dogs we have ever boarded or fostered are part of the pack and treated as such). As you have seen - I post his successes such as Schutzhund bitework, etc. I just think we could find him a better home where he would get more than we can give him.
We are in no rush to kick him out - I am very selective with homes - and I will make sure it is the best placement for his success - even if it takes months or years to find... He really is an amazing dog and if we weren't already at our limit, I would say he would stay with us forever, but time and space are limited.
So thank you to all of you who have supported us and understand our situation - certainly not one I would wish on anyone, but as I feel a certain responsibility to the breed and to Pollux himself, I have taken on this situation...

yukidomari 06-06-2011 23:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lunas Mom (Bericht 383485)
Pollux will stay with us until the right home is found - I am not "holding out" for a more "convenient" home, but rather a local home to be able to help with his adjustment and training, not to mention the fact that I can't do a home check in Idaho.

Well, .. home checks - many breed rescues will do that - to some criticism since it severely limits the area in which they can provide assistance to.. I can also say that I brought my Vlcak without a home check, as well as many others I can probably assume!

In short, I think there IS a perfect home out there for him.. right now, even. You just have to spread your search out.. yes, there are things about Vlcaks that are different than other dogs (like all dogs), but there are also some first-time dog owners here with Vlcaks and doing fine. :) I think probably it's more a matter of dedication and less a matter of experience ultimately.

I would say as advice, to never limit your options!

Hanka 07-06-2011 08:29

Hi Draggar, thank you very much for your answer about collar. I think, if puppy is "soft", more submissive, not so strong in his mind, so using of this collar is very bad reason. I don´t agree with you.
But I thank you for your answer and explain.

Tazer 07-06-2011 18:03

Good to read you're in no rush and will keep him until the right home is found.

Again good luck finding him his forever home.

Taz

draggar 01-07-2011 19:07

We have found him a home and it looks like the details have been worked out. An animal wrangler in California contacted us about him (I guess he was in touch with Pollux's breeder who referred us to him).

We confirmed who he is with our talet agent. He lives on 10+ acres of property, has a staff to work with the dogs, and has other dogs that Pollux will be able to run around and play with.

This animal wranger is also migrating from wolf hybrids to vlcaks due to increasingly strict wolf hybrid laws across the USA. APparently he has some big deals in the works to so we'll see if Pollux makes it to the big screen or not.

yukidomari 01-07-2011 19:14

Congrats to Pollux!


Pollux will be close to his sister? Does California now have the most Vlcaks in the states? Partha and two other Vlcaks are just a bit south of us in San Diego.

There is a Vlcak from Israel here in Los Angeles too, who goes to our same dog park.


Quote:

Originally Posted by draggar (Bericht 392307)
APparently he has some big deals in the works to so we'll see if Pollux makes it to the big screen or not.

Hope not! Screen time in the states has never meant well for any breed.. :cry:

Congratulations again to Pollux!

Do you know if he will be in North California or South California? I think there was a lady interested in meeting a Vlcak in North California, but I don't know of any there.

GalomyOak 01-07-2011 19:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by draggar (Bericht 392307)
We have found him a home and it looks like the details have been worked out. An animal wrangler in California contacted us about him (I guess he was in touch with Pollux's breeder who referred us to him).

We confirmed who he is with our talet agent. He lives on 10+ acres of property, has a staff to work with the dogs, and has other dogs that Pollux will be able to run around and play with.

This animal wranger is also migrating from wolf hybrids to vlcaks due to increasingly strict wolf hybrid laws across the USA. APparently he has some big deals in the works to so we'll see if Pollux makes it to the big screen or not.

Are you referring to the African-American gentleman (can't remember his name)? I received an inquiry from him a few weeks back (I didn't respond). Are you planning to neuter Pollux - just to 100% prevent him from being mixed?

draggar 01-07-2011 19:19

I don't know exactly where in CA - my wife worked out all the details.

As for population, I think Americani has quite a few dogs and they're in Texas so it's either TX or CA. I don't know how many BlueSteel has (Nebraska or Oklahoma) and I think Galomy Oak has 3 or 4 vlcaks, maybe one or two more in that state (Virginia).

Screentime for dogs isn't always a bad thing. Bengi brought attention to shelter dogs and got people going to shelters instead of puppy stores.

As for neutering / breeding - I don't think we have to worry about him being fixed. Who here in the USA would help someone like that fake paperwork to get them reigstered? Plus, if both clubs require parent - puppy DNA testing then it should hinder it even more.

yukidomari 01-07-2011 19:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by draggar (Bericht 392326)
Screentime for dogs isn't always a bad thing. Bengi brought attention to shelter dogs and got people going to shelters instead of puppy stores.

That's because he's a mixed breed, which you can find in shelters! :roll:

Quote:

Originally Posted by draggar (Bericht 392326)
As for neutering / breeding - I don't think we have to worry about him being fixed. Who here in the USA would help someone like that fake paperwork to get them reigstered? Plus, if both clubs require parent - puppy DNA testing then it should hinder it even more.

Nooo, I think the bigger concern is mixing him with other dogs or wolfdogs, with or without papers. Tons of people don't care about having papered dogs in the states........ or purebred, for that matter.

draggar 01-07-2011 19:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by yukidomari (Bericht 392327)
That's because he's a mixed breed, which you can find in shelters! :roll:

Rin Tin Tin didn't do any bad to German shepherds (the issues today can be traced back to the very late 1970's, early 1980's).

Lassie didn't do any bad to collies.

Both were popular dogs for a while but you didn't see the issues like you did when Disney re-re-re-re-re-released 101 dalmations (yeah, that was bad!).

yukidomari 01-07-2011 19:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by draggar (Bericht 392328)
Rin Tin Tin didn't do any bad to German shepherds (the issues today can be traced back to the very late 1970's, early 1980's).

Lassie didn't do any bad to collies.

Both were popular dogs for a while but you didn't see the issues like you did when Disney re-re-re-re-re-released 101 dalmations (yeah, that was bad!).

Maybe people back in the old days when Lassie and Rin Tin Tin was popular had more brains about dogs and didn't find them as disposable. Or just didn't see them as status objects like more people today.

Think about the past, say, 5 most recent movies about dogs, and think about if they did anything good. I can think of Shibas and Akitas (Hachiko - and it was bad for the breeds), as you said 101 Dalmatians - terrible, Beverly Hills Chihuahua... bad.. well, you understand. :cry:

draggar 01-07-2011 19:37

True but those are movies about dogs, Game of Thrones isn't about dogs even though they play a part in it. Also, Lassie and Rin Tin TIn both have had movies out over the past few years and the Rin Tin Tin kennel is still active (and they test for DM!!).

The entire first season of True Blood you saw Sam Merlott turning into a collie, that didn't make people rush out and get one - and the collie was about as important as the wolves in Game of Thrones.

Santa's Little Helper from the Simpsons - I don't think this ever made a rush for greyhounds except maybe from greyhound rescue (and by then they're adults most of the time). (Yes, he's animated but he's still a 20-something year old greyhound now).

The "Buddies" movies - I don't think they made a rush on those puppies either.

The Patriot didn't make a rush on Great Danes, and the same with Buck from Married w/ Children and Brandon the Wonder Dog from Punky Brewster.

There have been plenty of times where movies with dogs (not movies about dogs) and TV shows didn't do a lot of bad about the breed. I'm sure there are many other factors involved. I don't think there is a huge demand for Northern Inuit dogs now (or is there?).

yukidomari 01-07-2011 19:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by draggar (Bericht 392336)
There have been plenty of times where movies with dogs (not movies about dogs) and TV shows didn't do a lot of bad about the breed. I'm sure there are many other factors involved. I don't think there is a huge demand for Northern Inuit dogs now (or is there?).

No, because most just assume they're Husky/Mal mixes. And... well there are a million huskies in shelters too.

That Jack Russel from that sitcom made JRTs popular..

Well, good for optimistic thinking, I guess. I should try it sometimes.

GalomyOak 01-07-2011 19:40

http://www.scvanimals.com/Home_Page.html

That's the guy that emailed me.

No, my concern would be that he refers to training and sales of trained animals. You say he's moving away from using hybrids (and I honestly know nothing about the man, he could be, hopefully is, a great person!)...I guess I just realize that sometime's people's intentions change? A neuter is a guarantee. ;)

***eh, maybe not sales. Just misinterpreted "provide" and "suppliers" the wrong way, I guess. Just a country girl. Hollywood lingo is foreign to me. :)

Rona 01-07-2011 19:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by draggar (Bericht 392307)
We have found him a home and it looks like the details have been worked out. An animal wrangler in California contacted us about him (I guess he was in touch with Pollux's breeder who referred us to him)..

A wrangler? Do you mean a person who catches stray animals? :?

Priska182 01-07-2011 19:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by draggar (Bericht 392307)
We have found him a home and it looks like the details have been worked out. An animal wrangler in California contacted us about him (I guess he was in touch with Pollux's breeder who referred us to him).

We confirmed who he is with our talet agent. He lives on 10+ acres of property, has a staff to work with the dogs, and has other dogs that Pollux will be able to run around and play with.

This animal wranger is also migrating from wolf hybrids to vlcaks due to increasingly strict wolf hybrid laws across the USA. APparently he has some big deals in the works to so we'll see if Pollux makes it to the big screen or not.

Congratulations! :D I'm really glad form him :D

draggar 01-07-2011 20:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rona (Bericht 392341)
A wrangler? Do you mean a person who catches stray animals? :?

*lol* Well, that could be one definition.

A wrangler in enterainment is someone who manages the animals on set. They're also commonly the lead trainer and handler, too (especially for smaller productions). The three terms (wrangler, trainer, handler) are often interchanged in entertainment, too.

Rona 01-07-2011 20:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by draggar (Bericht 392365)
A wrangler in enterainment is someone who manages the animals on set. They're also commonly the lead trainer and handler, too (especially for smaller productions). The three terms (wrangler, trainer, handler) are often interchanged in entertainment, too.

OK. I had a stereotyped image... :)

Czertice 02-07-2011 02:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by draggar (Bericht 392307)
We have found him a home and it looks like the details have been worked out. An animal wrangler in California contacted us about him (I guess he was in touch with Pollux's breeder who referred us to him).

We confirmed who he is with our talet agent. He lives on 10+ acres of property, has a staff to work with the dogs, and has other dogs that Pollux will be able to run around and play with.

This animal wranger is also migrating from wolf hybrids to vlcaks due to increasingly strict wolf hybrid laws across the USA. APparently he has some big deals in the works to so we'll see if Pollux makes it to the big screen or not.

Congratulations! I'll definitely support Pollux the new movie star;]

Vaiva 02-07-2011 10:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by draggar (Bericht 392307)
We have found him a home and it looks like the details have been worked out. An animal wrangler in California contacted us about him (I guess he was in touch with Pollux's breeder who referred us to him).

We confirmed who he is with our talet agent. He lives on 10+ acres of property, has a staff to work with the dogs, and has other dogs that Pollux will be able to run around and play with.

This animal wranger is also migrating from wolf hybrids to vlcaks due to increasingly strict wolf hybrid laws across the USA. APparently he has some big deals in the works to so we'll see if Pollux makes it to the big screen or not.

:shock:

People, what are all these congratulations about???
So the dog has a new owner, who will own him together with many other dogs!!! I am sure that if Pollux were a GSD or some other "non-exotic" dog breed, he would not be so interesting for this person! Wolfdog needs a HOME, not a person just to feed and train him! He needs someone to pet him, to talk to him, to simply LOVE him...

Sorry, but this is tragic, I don't understand this. I hope you will still neuter Pollux.

Tfu, I hope breeders here in Europe will start thinking before selling puppies to USA :shock: Pollux example is more than enought... I am sorry for all these nice people who own, love, breed CSV in USA, but... this case is.. scary... :roll:

Nebulosa 02-07-2011 11:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vaiva (Bericht 392539)

Tfu, I hope breeders here in Europe will start thinking before selling puppies to USA :shock: Pollux example is more than enought... I am sorry for all these nice people who own, love, breed CSV in USA, but... this case is.. scary... :roll:

To USA and I hope to all Latin America, there was an european breeder which, not long ago, accepted to send one of his pups to a brazilian woman who had as experience with dogs a Minuature Pintcher.
She dreamed to have his wolfdog in her mothers' garden as she live in a flat.
According to her, the breeder stop of talk with her when she asked him to lower the price of the dog due the high transport price.
The woman live about 2500 km of me, she phoned me and I told her to adopt an adult easy mediun size mutt, she bought an Wippeth and has several problems in live with him yet.

I would like to ask all european breeder a bit of RESPECT to non-european breeders and to the dogs they breed.

If this dog had been owned by her, she would give up of him at the first week, she would have called me to come and pick up the pup, I would not have heart to do nothing and see a CzW get abandoned or die in our precarious shelters, then I would have to travel for 4 days only for pick up a dog which should never had been sent to her.

Vaiva 02-07-2011 11:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nebulosa (Bericht 392569)
there was an european breeder which, not long ago, accepted to send one of his pups to a brazilian woman who had as experience with dogs a Minuature Pintcher.

You do not want to say openly who this breeder is?....

Nebulosa 02-07-2011 11:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vaiva (Bericht 392573)
You do not want to say openly who this breeder is?....

It seems like his responsibility for choose breed mates is the same to select owners, you can see his post here. ;)

Vaiva 02-07-2011 11:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nebulosa (Bericht 392577)
It seems like his responsibility for choose breed mates is the same to select owners, you can see his post here. ;)

Uf. I see :|

Nebulosa 02-07-2011 11:35

In Spain there was also an case of a dog which was imported from Czech Republic, the dog was too hard for owners' experience and ended up attacking the wife of the owner, I contacted the breeder warning him about the dangerous situation, nothing was done, for what I know the dog has been put to sleep.

tupacs2legs 02-07-2011 15:11

Guess I am in the minority here....so Pollux is being sold to breed from? :evil:

The dogs that were 'aquired' for game of thrones from here ,most of them ended up in rescue centres.....given up to 'GOF' because they were unwanted and surplus to their breeders!!!

yukidomari 02-07-2011 16:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vaiva (Bericht 392539)
:shock:

People, what are all these congratulations about??

Sorry, my posts are somewhat confusing. I congratulated Pollux before I had found out otherwise and wrote the other thread. :|

Tazer 02-07-2011 20:08

A dog with his described temperament being happy working in a movie/tv set environment...you've got to be joking. Yes he may look the part, but will he be happy playing it?

Is the new owner prepared to put in the time to work with him to make sure he can handle that environment, or will he be trained in the new home environment, taken to the shooting location/s and just be expected to perform?

What happens if he doesn't make the grade? doesn't respond to the training? freeks out on set? what will this guy do with him if he is deemed to be useless?

What it appears Pollux needs is a home where he will be given time, patience, understanding and love. I maybe and indeed hope I'm wrong, but it doesn't sound like that is what is being offered here.

Taz

Tassle 03-07-2011 22:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tazer (Bericht 392715)
A dog with his described temperament being happy working in a movie/tv set environment...you've got to be joking. Yes he may look the part, but will he be happy playing it?

Is the new owner prepared to put in the time to work with him to make sure he can handle that environment, or will he be trained in the new home environment, taken to the shooting location/s and just be expected to perform?

What happens if he doesn't make the grade? doesn't respond to the training? freeks out on set? what will this guy do with him if he is deemed to be useless?

What it appears Pollux needs is a home where he will be given time, patience, understanding and love. I maybe and indeed hope I'm wrong, but it doesn't sound like that is what is being offered here.

Taz

Sounds to me it does not matter if Pollux does not make the grade - as long as he can produce pups who will! :(

Rona 03-07-2011 22:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tassle (Bericht 392886)
Sounds to me it does not matter if Pollux does not make the grade - as long as he can produce pups who will! :(

If only the wrangler were aware to what extent vlcaks take their characters after their ancestors! :evil_lol

Tassle 03-07-2011 22:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rona (Bericht 392898)
If only the wrangler were aware to what extent vlcaks take their characters after their ancestors! :evil_lol

It does not bear thinking about to be honest!

When I took on my boy (who admittedly is very Saarloos like - and all that goes with that!!) Mum was thrilled we would have a dog like this on our books.....until she realised how little he could cope with being treated like a prop. Dogs need a rock solid temperament and the ability to repeat things over and over, not to mention being handed off to strangers and expected to look like they 'belong'......

Sounds great doesn't it. :roll:

Tazer 04-07-2011 00:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tassle (Bericht 392886)
Sounds to me it does not matter if Pollux does not make the grade - as long as he can produce pups who will!

I know, how very sad for him.

At least, if this guy already owns/trains wolfdog/hybrids, he should have some idea of the challenge he maybe about to take on.

Taz

tupacs2legs 04-07-2011 01:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tassle (Bericht 392901)
It does not bear thinking about to be honest!

When I took on my boy (who admittedly is very Saarloos like - and all that goes with that!!) Mum was thrilled we would have a dog like this on our books.....until she realised how little he could cope with being treated like a prop. Dogs need a rock solid temperament and the ability to repeat things over and over, not to mention being handed off to strangers and expected to look like they 'belong'......

Sounds great doesn't it. :roll:

Good job his brother is on your books then lol ....have food will follow and repeat lol!

Vaiva 04-07-2011 12:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tazer (Bericht 392919)
At least, if this guy already owns/trains wolfdog/hybrids, he should have some idea of the challenge he maybe about to take on.

Taz

Yes, tiger trainers in circus also have knowledge about training them, but do the tigers feel happy about it? :roll:

Tazer 04-07-2011 19:51

I never mentioned anything about Pollux being happy about it, I already said before he wouldn't be.

Vaiva 04-07-2011 20:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tazer (Bericht 393111)
I never mentioned anything about Pollux being happy about it, I already said before he wouldn't be.

Yes, so I agreed :roll:

draggar 05-07-2011 23:14

Pollux has a way of surprising people and the real Pollux is coming out more and more every day, one stride at a time. For example:

Yesterday was the American Independence Day and a very common way to celebrate it is to set off fireworks. Fireworks are everything most dogs would hate, they're loud, they can be heard from a long distance away, they're a quick and loud POP, a bright light (if close enough), and unpredictable.

I decided to give the dogs their final walks for the evening around 8PM, it was still light out so most people wouldn't have started by then. (It was either that or wait until midnight when the fireworks tone down or 2-3AM when they stop (and I leave for work at 6am).

I walked Pollux first knowing he would be affected by it the most. I was wrong, he wasn't to affected by it at all.

Most of it was medium popping and some flashes that didn't even phase Pollux. If there was a flash he'd look up as if he was thinking "What is that, it looks like a fun toy!". A few M80's were set off near us (1/4 stick of dynamite) which all he did was look up (as if surprised), looked around, and then went on with what he was doing before (sniffing, etc.). I walked Luna next and he didn't waste any time, she did her business and pulled me back into the house.

This is one instance where he did better than she did.

As for where Pollux is going, the person ha acres of open land where Pollux can run around with the other dogs. He also has a lot of experience with wolf hybrids so a vlcak, even one with Pollux's temperament issues, should be a step down from what he's used to (like going from working line malinois to show line GSDs, perhaps, but maybe not as extreme?). He is a trainer and will be able to dedicate the time Pollux needs.

I think there are only two people on this forum who can honestly claim they've seen the real Pollux come out. We think the exposure he'll get in CA will help bring that out even faster.

yukidomari 06-07-2011 01:10

I think that the title 'trainer' should be taken with a grain of salt in all situations. After all, being a trainer alone doesn't automatically qualify one for much of anything.

Besides, whom among us who has ever had any dog (or animal..), is also not a 'trainer'?

I don't really care about how much land he has or how much experience he has with wolf mixes, being that neither are prerequisites for happily owning a dog, but I do wonder how many animals he has if he has a staff of 10 to take care of them, and how well a domesticated animal meant for human companionship such as a dog would do there.

I would think that dogs would be happiest in a household that would take them to eat ice cream on their birthdays, go on long walks everyday, train for whatever they were bred to do, play at the parks, and sleep in their owners' beds at night. For Pollux' sake I'll hope that this is where he finds himself, although I'm not certain he will.

PS. I also don't like the whole overnight breeder factor either, and I think it's a terrible start for Vlcaks in the states to have just anyone out to breed dogs who has probably not even met more than 1 representative of the breed.

Rona 06-07-2011 08:08

I bothered to read the old threads about Pollux:

http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=14024
http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=14211

and have one simple question: why haven't you, Draggar and Lunasmom, learnt anything from the lesson?

People who had much more experince with vlcaks were warning you and your friend about the possible consequences of hasty purchase of a pup from the first litter available and from a breeder who wasn't even sure which pup she had forwarded to the USA: Puck or Pollux :twisted:. You didn't bother to listen - you answers were arrogant and showed the "I know better" attitude with masses of self-advertising.
I was surprised, that as dog trainers, on Pollux arrival neither you, nor your knowledgeable friend could correctly interpret the pup's obvious behaviour signals described, but I hoped you knew what you were doing. Unfortunately the developments showed you advisors were right: Pollux is still unsettled and the situation repeats:

Again people who have more exeperinece with vlcaks, their raising, training, rehoming, developmental patterns, etc. are kindly advising you not to send him to a place where he'll be exposed to further stresses and to someone who will expect from him things he might not fulfil. These people have no personal interest in where the dog will live, just like they had no personal interest which puppy Sioban would have eventually picked - they're only trying to help.

My question is: why don't you guys listen to them? Why do you again reject their opinions and advice? Why do you again practise wishful thinking? :evil:

Shadowlands 06-07-2011 08:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by yukidomari (Bericht 393365)
PS. I also don't like the whole overnight breeder factor either, and I think it's a terrible start for Vlcaks in the states to have just anyone out to breed dogs who has probably not even met more than 1 representative of the breed.

Absolutely! Also, what happened to the decision stated in another thread?

(Posted by Draggar)
I do to, the whole future of "American lined" CSVs are at stake here. Pollux is a very good looking dog and his temperament isn't as much of a factor (being the male) since typically 75% of the temperament comes from the mother (and raising).

If he's a mix we'd need to know ASAP but I think right now my wife has decided to not use him in any breeding for now until more facts come out.

Vaiva 06-07-2011 09:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by yukidomari (Bericht 393365)
I would think that dogs would be happiest in a household that would take them to eat ice cream on their birthdays, go on long walks everyday, train for whatever they were bred to do, play at the parks, and sleep in their owners' beds at night. For Pollux' sake I'll hope that this is where he finds himself, although I'm not certain he will.

Totally!!! (I like the ice-cream part most, because Brukne is crazy for them, so I can't resist... :oops:)
Pollux doesn't need acres to run free, he needs home. Usually experienced trainers or breeders say, that no dog needs acres to run free - in such cases dogs become "stupid". Every dog needs a walk with a master, not running free. Draggar, you say you are a dog trainer, so are you the one who doesn't know some simple things about dogs, or are you the one, who doesn't care?

P.S. Last week had a walk with a really experienced Irish setter breeder (if "expeerienced" is not enought, a male from her kennel is twice a World Winner) and once again an experienced person told me, she would rather sell a dog to a small flat, than a house with a yard.

draggar 06-07-2011 19:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rona (Bericht 393370)
My question is: why don't you guys listen to them? Why do you again reject their opinions and advice? Why do you again practise wishful thinking? :evil:

As stated before, many times, we told Pollux's owner to wait and she didn't want to. She's the one who rushed to get a dog and she got Pollux for the wrong reasons. Yet we're the one cleaning up the mess and taking the heat on the forum like we've had 100% control over what's happened.

We took Pollux out of a neglectful situation and brought him into our home. Even though it was supposed to be temporary, we treated him and loved him as if he was one of our own.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowlands (Bericht 393371)
Absolutely! Also, what happened to the decision stated in another thread?

(Posted by Draggar)
I do to, the whole future of "American lined" CSVs are at stake here. Pollux is a very good looking dog and his temperament isn't as much of a factor (being the male) since typically 75% of the temperament comes from the mother (and raising).

If he's a mix we'd need to know ASAP but I think right now my wife has decided to not use him in any breeding for now until more facts come out.

If this person breeds it is for purely internal reasons (yes, I've met other "breeders" like this before). It is in the contract that if he sells or rehomes (etc..) the puppies they MUST be neutered or spayed. Breach of contract is a valid reason for us to confiscate him.

Pollux hasn't even been registered wiht UKC or AKC yet, he was shown with a temporary ID (I don't even know where the paperwork is - I am not even sure if his owner got them yet). So even if he does sell the puppies it will be very hard to keep them in any vlcak program here in the USA w/o being registered.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vaiva (Bericht 393374)
Totally!!! (I like the ice-cream part most, because Brukne is crazy for them, so I can't resist... :oops:)
Pollux doesn't need acres to run free, he needs home. Usually experienced trainers or breeders say, that no dog needs acres to run free - in such cases dogs become "stupid". Every dog needs a walk with a master, not running free. Draggar, you say you are a dog trainer, so are you the one who doesn't know some simple things about dogs, or are you the one, who doesn't care?

P.S. Last week had a walk with a really experienced Irish setter breeder (if "expeerienced" is not enought, a male from her kennel is twice a World Winner) and once again an experienced person told me, she would rather sell a dog to a small flat, than a house with a yard.

First, I never said I was a trainer - and for the record, I am not. I may know a thing or two but I'm FAR from a trainer (I bet even the average professional dog show handler knows more than I do). Yes, I've worked him though the guidance of trainers. I saw what he was when he first came into our home and with a hell of a lot of work he's become a much better dog. I gave up many Saturday afternoons to take him to schutzhund to work him and build up his confidence. I gave up many evenings talking him for long walks and exposing him to strangers (to him) and new enviroments. We even had him working as a service dog in training for a while so he could be exposed to a lot more than the average dog.

As for the home he's going to - that was the owner's call. We just screened the appliants (for the lack of a better term). Yes, he has acrage but Pollux isn't going to be out there 24-7. The person he's going to said that he wants to keep the dogs in his house with him. Pollux also loves to run around and play with other dgs - we see this whenever we go to the dog park. His grin goes from ear to ear and he will go on for hours running with the other dogs.

I am willing to bet that there will also be a lot of dog to human interaction since the dogs he has are used for film (in film they have to work with humans, even if the part isn't with humans).

yukidomari 06-07-2011 19:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by draggar (Bericht 393470)
If this person breeds it is for purely internal reasons (yes, I've met other "breeders" like this before). It is in the contract that if he sells or rehomes (etc..) the puppies they MUST be neutered or spayed. Breach of contract is a valid reason for us to confiscate him.

So even if he does sell the puppies it will be very hard to keep them in any vlcak program here in the USA w/o being registered.

So breeding for his 'internal reasons' is supposed to make it better to breed unregistered puppies??? :shock: You're supposed to be looking out for the welfare of each dog of the breed, not just if they are sold to the public, registered or not! I guess all the other backyard breeders who will spay and neuter animals if they sell them are also OK, and all the people who want to breed "to have their own pack of wolves" are also OK..

My goodness, where has logic and common sense went gone? What kind of thinking is this to befit a so-called 'founder' of a breed club in foundation?


Quote:

Originally Posted by draggar (Bericht 393470)
As for the home he's going to - that was the owner's call. We just screened the appliants (for the lack of a better term).

I call BS and I'm tired of every little thing being "his owner's call". Yes, she WAS his owner, but as far as I understand when you've fostered a dog for 6 months or more and alternatively represented him as a "co-own", you have good legal standing to take custody of this dog. You should really try to do that. And if you haven't tried to fight your friend whose decision is to send a mill (according to your words) dog off to be bred to make unregistered puppies, then you are complicit in this.

Though I guess you being extremely happy over this placement already means that.

I hope that if your club becomes the national UKC club, that members get to vote for positions. Hopefully most will read this rubbish written here and decide that you're not fit to head a breed club which purports to look out for the welfare of the dogs and the breed. Not registering the litters does not in fact make it better, and selling puppies altered also does not make it better.

draggar 06-07-2011 20:11

Oh, let's put words in other people's mouths! I love this game!!

So, what you're saying is a ranch owner who breeds their own herding dogs and doesn't bother with registration and then sells the dogs that doesn't make the cut neutered / spayed to pet homes are destroying the breeds, too?

How about a police department who has their own breeding kennel and does the same with ther dogs that don't make the cut - are they destorying the breed too?

These are all working kennels and NOT just back yard breeders who want to mass-produce puppies to just sell. They breed dogs for WORK and if you think all dogs bred in working kennels make it to work you are living in some far off fantasy land.

Or do you think people shouldn't breed dogs for working ability and just breed pets to fill the demand for what's popular? Sounds more like you're the one who supports mills and back yard breeders. As long as they have papers according to you! If you truly think that way, go have a chat with the Hunte Corp and see what that mentality can lead to. Don't forget to ask about his incinerator or the 18-wheelers he gets!

Quote:

Originally Posted by yukidomari (Bericht 393474)
And if you haven't tried to fight your friend whose decision is to send a mill (according to your words).

.. and where did I say he was going to "a mill"?

His owner is still his owner, we were supposed to be made co-owners when his registration went though but it never did. Our "legal" standing is very small right now. We dobn't have the money to take her to court or even hire a lawyer. It's funny how people can shout LAWSUIT LAWSUIT when they know very little about the actual situation.

Also, all I see from you is complain, complain, and complain yet you didn't offer one bit of help yet you act like you know everything. I don't see any posts in this thread offering REAL help nor do I see any PMs from you offering help, just complaints about how we handled the situation.

But, since we're playing your game:

Quote:

Originally Posted by yukidomari (Bericht 381389)
If I were you I wouldn't care if the person was local or not for my own benefit in show or choice of playmate

Quote:

Originally Posted by yukidomari (Bericht 383436)
I don't think it's especially fair to him to 'hold out' on a new home waiting for one in your area which would be convenient to you, especially since things seem to be getting busy with your other dogs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by yukidomari (Bericht 383498)
I would say as advice, to never limit your options!

It sounds to me that you would have done the same in our situation.

Also, I'm not the one who insinuated that breeders today think that dogs are disposable and have "less brains":

Quote:

Originally Posted by yukidomari (Bericht 392331)
Maybe people back in the old days when Lassie and Rin Tin Tin was popular had more brains about dogs and didn't find them as disposable. Or just didn't see them as status objects like more people today.

At least I'm not the one being overly pessimistic:

Quote:

Originally Posted by yukidomari (Bericht 392339)
Well, good for optimistic thinking, I guess. I should try it sometimes.

Now, are we done with the "put words in someone else's mouth" game?

yukidomari 06-07-2011 20:25

I'll bite.

Quote:

Originally Posted by draggar (Bericht 393476)
So, what you're saying is a ranch owner who breeds their own herding dogs and doesn't bother with registration and then sells the dogs that doesn't make the cut neutered / spayed to pet homes are destroying the breeds, too?

No, because if you had bothered to read the rest of my post, where I wrote that I didn't like the "overnight breeder" part of this equation, you would have surmised that I would support unregistered utility dogs if and only if the owner knew their lines well and were breeding to better their type of dog for their stock and working capacity. Which, by the way, is CLEARLY not the situation here.

Oh and BTW making dogs for movies isn't comparable to police or ranch work.

That also still doesn't answer the question: WHY, as a person involved in the breed club, would you support ANY UNREGISTERED production of dogs. This is not about whether or not "registration is all that matters" or not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by draggar (Bericht 393476)
Or do you think people shouldn't breed dogs for working ability and just breed pets to fill the demand for what's popular? Sounds more like you're the one who supports mills and back yard breeders. As long as they have papers according to you!

Registration is not the end all of purebred dogs, but without registration a person isn't breeding, they're just producing. And you're supporting this. And again, don't kid yourself into thinking that movie production requires some 'special' new breeding of unregistered, possibly mixed, Vlcaks. Nice attempt at a straw man, though.

Anyway, even if the puppies were registered, doesn't make it better either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by draggar (Bericht 393476)
and where did I say he was going to "a mill"?

I didn't say you said he was going to a mill. Read. I said "Send a mill dog..".

Quote:

Originally Posted by draggar (Bericht 393476)
His owner is still his owner, we were supposed to be made co-owners when his registration went though but it never did. Our "legal" standing is very small right now. We dobn't have the money to take her to court or even hire a lawyer. It's funny how people can shout LAWSUIT LAWSUIT when they know very little about the actual situation.

Sounds like you've never been to small claims court, which is neither expensive nor requires a lawyer, and so it's funny how a person can shout that they can't do anything when they know very little about the American legal system.


Quote:

Originally Posted by draggar (Bericht 393476)
Also, all I see from you is complain, complain, and complain yet you didn't offer one bit of help yet you act like you know everything.

Nobody can tell you where to place a dog, they can only advise. And the advice here is not to place the dog here, not just from me, which you clearly don't care about anyway, and perceive it as complaining.

GalomyOak 06-07-2011 20:25

I guess a couple of things don't make sense to me with that guy (if it is the same guy in the website).

1. In my interpretation, it has become easier in many places to own "hybrid" wolfdogs, since their reclassification as a species and also since many states now list ALL wolfdogs as a "domestic" animal. Even the vaccination controversy has simmered down considerably. Also, that guy says he obtains permits and works with the USDA, and works with other exotic species too - all the necessary framework you'd need as a professional, I imagine. I don't really understand his argument that it is becoming more difficult to work with hybrids. In any case, I think it will only be a matter of time, unfortunately, before insurance companies, localities, etc. get wind of our breed - probably through an incompetent owner - and they are added to the "dangerous dog breed list", only a slight step up from the legalities of hybrid ownership.

2. I'm not sure who the "kennel you don't like is", or the female who he plans to breed with. My understanding of working with animals, canines specifically, is that there is usually a set of them, with each dog having specific strengths and weaknesses in acting, that all look somewhat similar. Different dogs are used for different shots, all representing the same "character". I imagine animation does a lot now too. It would seem a trainer would want animals from different backgrounds - some with a background strong for being social. I'd think it would make more sense to obtain dogs from different litters - not the same litter based off of at least one shy parent? Hopefully he doesn't plan to pull the pups from the dam at 10 days as many hybrid breeders advocate.

3. There is the ethical standpoint. I can't agree with breeding dogs en masse for commercial reasons (not including service work or civil/military protection, where there is a waiting list for "extras"), even if they are a closed population. That's probably my biggest problem that I have come to see in "the working sport dog" world as well...dogs are really a commodity. If the trainer doesn't see a world champion, he implores you to buy a different dog, or sell the one you've got. The home itself...maybe it will be ok for Pollux, no more of a risk than any other new home, I guess, in terms of the wrangler's honesty, integrity and ability. But the breeding part...that scares me. Siobhan herself tells in the bio on her website how pro-humane shelter she is. Working in that environment, she must have seen the desperation that goes on there as a result of commercial breeding. Does she have an alter ego?

I am very proud of the ownership and home that you and Sara have provided for my Luna. If there is any way our rescue can help Pollux out (I didn't realize it had gotten to this stage), please let me know. I even have some space at my home if you need a respite.

tupacs2legs 06-07-2011 21:12

:evil: :evil: :evil:

Its all one big cop out!!!!

Where is the love of the breed???

Imo it seems to be more about having a rare breed... dogs don't seem to be loved family members but commodities!!!

Pleas let GalomyOak foster Pollux and hopefully find him a loving home so our breed is not also damned in your country too!


And if not why not?

Gypsy Wolf 06-07-2011 21:45

OK, OK... since *I* am the one who actually spoke to the Animal Wrangler/Trainer, I feel the need to clarify a few things...
First, I did want to point out to Marcy (and thank you for the offer of respite!) that some states (Florida is one of them) considers wolf-dog crosses to be exotic animals and you need a permit. Not every state considers them domestic dogs. The FL law was recently changed and is, unfortunately, very UNCLEAR - stating that if the dog looks like a wolf it is to be treated as such and the same requirements of ownership apply (specific enclosures, etc.). We have since joined the FL Lupine Assn to try to lobby against this unfair legal definition. Technically, I can "prove" my vlcaks are not wolf-dog crosses (not recently, anyway) but visually, Pollux looks like a wolf. Period.
Speaking with the wrangler, a lot of his work is also international - a LOT easier to work with domestic dog breed laws as opposed to exotic species laws, so I find no fault in his desire to have a vlcak "wolf pack". Better for the actual work, too, as they are certainly more amenable to training than a wolf-dog.
His intent is simply to replace the wolf-dogs that he currently has, as they are about 10 and a half years old, and with a more consistant gene pool, it's a better bet to get the "look" he wants, rather than "experimenting" with another wolf-to-some-dog-breed mix. He is not looking to produce puppies for sale - he is looking for wolf-looking dogs he can use for animal Talent. I have no problem with this.
Personally I feel we have a working breed, and as such, it is more fulfilling to the individual to WORK. Yes, being a pet in our home is nice - he gets cuddled and spoiled and loved. But he also has a lot of energy and we live in a townhouse in an urban area - though I take the dogs to parks, etc., to run off their energy, it would be better, IMHO, for a dog like Pollux to have a LOT of room to just run full-out and play and wrestle with other dogs. I also am THRILLED that someone who has a LOT of experience with actual wolf-dog and wolf behavior is going to work him - I think that is a perfect fit.
Pollux instinctively does not like being in an urban environment. He will often display neurotic behaviors if he is cooped up longer than normal (if it is a day of constant thunderstorms) I think 10 acres to run on and get exhausted would be healthier for him.
Pollux is still here currently - the wrangler has not contacted us regarding getting him shipped - perhaps he has reconsidered and Pollux will end up staying here. Again, I am not in a rush - he is welcome to stay here indefinitely. I just think that his going out and being a working acting animal with someone who intimiately understands his behavior is perfect. As I mentioned before, I think a working dog should WORK. It brings confidence - especially to those who need a little bit more.
This thread seems to have gone off on a tangent that has nothing to do with the facts. His owner found that she didn't want him and was looking to sell him. We took him in so he would be in a home rather than out in a kennel in her yard until a good home could be found. There was no abuse - lots of dogs are kennel dogs - we just felt it would be better for him to be in a home. From the beginning it was intended to be a "foster" situation - I already have a vlcak, not to mention a GSD and 2 Malinois - and having another dog takes time away from them - the dogs *I* chose to be in my life. I don't have unlimited time, money or energy - or space. I need to make sure that I am fair to my dogs - they all have or have had, a job. All my dogs work doing something, and I have goals in regards to working and titling them. A needy dog like Pollux takes a good deal of time and effort to continually work... is that fair to my other dogs? IS it fair to Pollux? Personally, I think it would be better for him to be in a situation where he gets more time being trained and socialized. The wrangler has 2 other trainers working for him - Pollux would have even more attention, not to mention lots of other dogs to interact with, and people who understand him and do not expect him to be a Golden Retriever, like a lot of "pet" people assume he should be. He will be worked around his instinctive shyness, rather than coddled for it.
This placement is NOT a "pet" placement - in fact I am happier about placing him in this sort of scenario as opposed to a "pet" situation - I feel it is the perfect environment for him to mature and blossom. I spoke to the wrangler at length, and I have been involved in placing rescues since I started in dogs back in 1991 - I do not have reservations about Pollux's future if he does end up going there. No, he may not get to share an ice cream cone with his handler, but I think the trade-off will be better for him.

tupacs2legs 06-07-2011 21:53

If u loved the breed u would at least neuter him before u let him go and not allow willy nilly breeding from him!

Being used once in a while for films etc is not working!! U are kidding yourselves!

Gypsy Wolf 06-07-2011 22:22

As I mentioned above, it isn't "willy nilly" breeding. You also have no idea what you are talking about, obviously, in regards to working theatrical animals. Most of my dogs have worked doing theatrical projects - my dogs have been in product demonstration videos as well as in soap operas, TV shows, etc. Having dogs trained to that level is not only daily work in training various behaviors, but keeping them in prime condition, and doing the actual work. Funny that the actual time they are in front of the cameras is miniscule in comparison to all the background work done to get them to that point. So, yes, it is work.
And I am more than happy to see Pollux go to that wrangler. He will blossom there.
And as an aside, I do not have the ability to neuter him - that is his owner's decision - and personally I do not feel that neutering him would be beneficial to his temperament, either. For Pollux, I think a little bit of testosterone is a good thing. I am more concerned about his psychological welfare than an unfounded fear that he will be bred "willy-nilly."

yukidomari 06-07-2011 22:27

How is being in films 'working' any more then obedience venues are 'working'? Please, it's probably more akin to a sport and so I see no reason why a pet family who happens to like obedience, rally, agility, etc, would be a lesser placement.
:flop


There's still no reason to justify creating possible mixes or contributing a dog to a person who doesn't have much CsV experience to breed with. Even if this is for his own use, it doesn't seem justified since there are such a vast array of good dogs to pick from anyway out there. If I didn't know much about the breed, pedigrees, breeding, etc, then I would simply buy another from a breeder who does.

As for the need for testosterone? Vasectomy. It exists for dogs too.

tupacs2legs 06-07-2011 22:34

Oh dear,do you think u have the only dogs used for that? My own csv is on books and I know exactly what training goes into it....and mine are all trained without torture devices.

Lol methinks this guy wouldn't buy a neutered dog and that's the real reason u won't neuter him first!

Its more about fame it seems that and the dollar not the love of the breed,let alone the love for poor Pollux

wolfin 06-07-2011 22:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by GalomyOak (Bericht 393478)
If there is any way our rescue can help Pollux out (I didn't realize it had gotten to this stage), please let me know. I even have some space at my home if you need a respite.

the best wariant - why not think about this but about "film star" this not important and not help for this dog. and IF not read this point realy and put him to "10 acres" - castrated him please

wolfin 06-07-2011 22:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lunas Mom (Bericht 393496)
As I mentioned above, it isn't "willy nilly" breeding. You also have no idea what you are talking about, obviously, in regards to working theatrical animals. Most of my dogs have worked doing theatrical projects - my dogs have been in product demonstration videos as well as in soap operas, TV shows, etc. Having dogs trained to that level is not only daily work in training various behaviors, but keeping them in prime condition, and doing the actual work. Funny that the actual time they are in front of the cameras is miniscule in comparison to all the background work done to get them to that point. So, yes, it is work.
And I am more than happy to see Pollux go to that wrangler. He will blossom there.
And as an aside, I do not have the ability to neuter him - that is his owner's decision - and personally I do not feel that neutering him would be beneficial to his temperament, either. For Pollux, I think a little bit of testosterone is a good thing. I am more concerned about his psychological welfare than an unfounded fear that he will be bred "willy-nilly."


beter shoot this dog :lol::twisted::twisted::twisted:

Tassle 06-07-2011 22:38

I know you mentioned that you might like to breed from him. Has this guy offered you a pup if he breeds?

GalomyOak 06-07-2011 22:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lunas Mom (Bericht 393491)
First, I did want to point out to Marcy (and thank you for the offer of respite!) that some states (Florida is one of them) considers wolf-dog crosses to be exotic animals and you need a permit. Not every state considers them domestic dogs. The FL law was recently changed and is, unfortunately, very UNCLEAR - stating that if the dog looks like a wolf it is to be treated as such and the same requirements of ownership apply (specific enclosures, etc.).

I thought Florida went by percentages - i.e, if a dog is over 75% wolf then it is treated...I think as "medium level" wildlife (not as dangerous as a gorilla, but more dangerous than a tortoise), and has requirements than correspond. All species can be possessed if they are part of exhibition, with a permit, bonds, etc. That is reasonable, I guess, from a legal standpoint (though it is difficult to prove percentages), and in line with most other states. I think most people who own a wolfdog that is 75%+ (with genuine proof) would agree it takes more specialized care than the average dog. It's really a huge question for our breed here, how they will be treated if they came into a legal situation - even with pedigrees. They are the only breed that AKC (begrudgedly) acknowledges comes from recent wolf crossings. Uncharted territory. While AKC does have some legal influence because of the money it lavishes on politicians as a special interest group, it really has no authority. States could potentially ban our breed, because of it's history...it's why I always encourage prospective owners to know all of the laws that could potentially apply to them.

Rona 06-07-2011 22:47

11-05-2010, 21:42:
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lunas Mom (Bericht 300234)
No worries on that score - my girlfriend is an excellent trainer, and is well-known for turning out confident, happy working dogs.

Today, 22:22:
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lunas Mom (Bericht 393496)
And I am more than happy to see Pollux go to that wrangler. He will blossom there."

Some people never have any doubts... :twisted:


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 02:14.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
(c) Wolfdog.org