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-   -   Penn Hip method (http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=8227)

draggar 20-05-2011 01:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by GalomyOak (Bericht 378840)
I recently had contact with PennHip. We currently have 9 CSVs that have been tested so far. 11 more to go until we can start using the test as a reliable piece of data for breeding! ;-)

I recently got results that I was very happy with for my male, Arimminum Wasabogoa:

Left Hip: 0.21, No Degenerative Joint Disease detected
Right Hip: 0.30, No Degenerative Joint Disease detected

Send Sara the info if she doesn't already have it.

GalomyOak 20-05-2011 04:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by yukidomari (Bericht 378842)
Congrats on Bongo's results! 11 shouldn't be too hard! Just have owners of "A" and upcoming "B" litter use PennHip and you'll almost be there!

ETA: I had a passing thought about the 20 results needed for baseline - does it matter if most of the subjects are related? Would unrelated subjects provided more 'accurate' results? Or does it not matter at all?

I think it's kind of interesting to get a blend of both. The baseline continuously grows with the number of dogs tested. Currently, the dogs are measured against the median for all breeds - 0.48. Two of my dogs are in the 80th percentile, Bongo was in the 90th. That said, Roni came up with C/mild HD hips when tested about 10 months later, on a .39 hip. Makes me wonder if the breed gets HD at a lower distraction than other breeds - like the GSD.

Ed, sure she does - Fred Lanting was one of PennHips biggest proponents. Best to do everthing in one shot after she is 2. One of the PennHip views is the same as the OFA. Just have to go to a certified vet.

saschia 20-05-2011 10:57

Hey guys, I still do not understand how you can get usable results from numbers that only say how the dog is doing in comparison with the rest of the population. I am not questioning the results, mind, I would just like to know what they mean.
I mean, if, theoretically, the whole population of US vlcaks was HD A(0/0), wouldn't the percentiles be of no real value? I mean in population of healthy animals, even the lowest-score is still healthy. And in reverse, if most of animals was D or E, than if one was in great percentile, it could still be just a C or D dog...

So do the result contain also some other numbers, that reflect the absolute values, not relative?

elf 20-05-2011 15:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by saschia (Bericht 378901)
And in reverse, if most of animals was D or E, than if one was in great percentile, it could still be just a C or D dog...

Yep, that's why it's important info, in such a breed those dogs would be interesting, it's the story of the breeding value composed by different traits: BV = aA + bB + ...

You can guess absolute value with graphs I put there: http://www.amicale-chien-loup-tcheco...ic.php?id=1938

The results of those 2 plublications are interessant:

Distraction index as a risk factor for osteoarthritis associated with hip dysplasia in four large dog breeds.

Runge JJ, Kelly SP, Gregor TP, Kotwal S, Smith GK.

Department of Clinical Studies, Matthew J. Ryan Veterinary Hospital at the University of Pennsylvania, Philadelphia, PA, USA.
Abstract

OBJECTIVE: To determine if age, breed, gender, weight or distraction index (DI) influenced the risk of radiographic osteoarthritis (OA) of canine hip dysplasia (CHD) in four common dog breeds; the American bulldog, Bernese mountain dog, Newfoundland and standard poodle.

MATERIALS AND METHODS: This was a cross sectional prevalence study with 4349 dogs. Canine hips were evaluated using 3 radiographic projections: the hip-extended view, the compression view and the distraction view. The hip-extended view was examined for the presence of OA. The PennHIP distraction view was utilized to calculate the DI. For all breeds, a multiple logistic regression model incorporating age, weight, gender, and DI was created. For each breed, disease-susceptibility curves grouping dogs on the basis of age were constructed. Receiver-operating characteristic (ROC) curves were developed for each breed regardless of age.

RESULTS: For all breeds, DI was the most significant risk factor for the development of OA associated with CHD. Weight and age were also significant risk factors in all four breeds, but gender was not.

CLINICAL SIGNIFICANCE: Results from this study support previous findings, that irrespective of breed, the probability of radiographic OA increases with hip joint laxity as measured by the DI. Breed-specific differences in this relationship, however, warrant investigation of all breeds affected by CHD to determine inherent dependency of hip OA on joint laxity. Such findings guide veterinarians in helping dog breeders to make evidence-based breeding decisions and in informing dog owners to implement preventative treatments for CHD for dogs found to be at risk.


----------------------

Evaluation of the relationship between Orthopedic Foundation for Animals' hip joint scores and PennHIP distraction index values in dogs.

Powers MY, Karbe GT, Gregor TP, McKelvie P, Culp WT, Fordyce HH, Smith GK.

Department of Clinical Studies-Philadelphia, School of Veterinary Medicine, University of Pennsylvania, Philadelphia, PA 19104, USA.

Comment in:

* J Am Vet Med Assoc. 2010 Oct 15;237(8):899; author reply 899-900.

Abstract

OBJECTIVE: To compare 2 screening methods for detecting evidence of hip dysplasia (Orthopedic Foundation for Animals [OFA] and PennHIP) in dogs.

DESIGN: Diagnostic test evaluation study. Animals-439 dogs >or= 24 months of age that received routine hip joint screening from June 1987 through July 2008.

PROCEDURES: Dogs were sedated, and PennHIP radiography was performed (hip joint- extended [HE], compression, and distraction radiographic views). The HE radiographic view was submitted for OFA evaluation. A copy of the HE radiographic view plus the compression and distraction radiographic views were submitted for routine PennHIP evaluation, including quantification of hip joint laxity via the distraction index (DI).

RESULTS: 14% (60/439) of dogs had hip joints scored as excellent by OFA standards; however, 52% (31/60) of those had a DI >or= 0.30 (range, 0.14 to 0.61). Eighty-two percent of (183/223) dogs with OFA-rated good hip joints had a DI >or= 0.30 (range, 0.10 to 0.77), and 94% (79/84) of dogs with OFA-rated fair hip joints had a DI >or= 0.30 (range, 0.14 to 0.77). Of all dogs with fair to excellent hip joints by OFA standards, 80% (293/367) had a DI >or= 0.30. All dogs with OFA-rated borderline hip joints or mild, moderate, or severe hip dysplasia had a DI >or= 0.30 (range, 0.30 to 0.83).

CONCLUSION AND CLINICAL RELEVANCE: Dogs judged as phenotypically normal by the OFA harbored clinically important passive hip joint laxity as determined via distraction radiography. Results suggested that OFA scoring of HE radiographs underestimated susceptibility to osteoarthritis in dogs, which may impede progress in reducing or eliminating hip dysplasia through breeding.

GalomyOak 20-05-2011 16:08

PennHip makes the recommendation that breeders use animals that are within the tightest half of their breed population (lowest distraction/laxity number); this is more reliable obviously, if there is a large population tested for the breed. PennHip begins providing numbers against a control group for the breed, once 20 dogs have been tested within a breed.

PennHip research has shown that dogs who test at .30 or below have virtually no chance of developing HD (only one dog of thousands ever has). Conversely, dogs close to or over .70 are almost guaranteed to develop HD. Between .30 and .70, there is an increasing chance to develop HD. GSDs tend to develop HD at lower numbers than other breeds. Pennhip hypothesizes this is because of the "tucked under" structure of a GSDs rear legs...but maybe not? Maybe it's in genetics.

PennHip makes 3 xrays. One is the same as that used for OFA in the US, or standard testing in Europe. PennHip evaluates this film for signs of HD - if it is normal, they tell you, or if there is disease, they tell you, but they don't give it a "grade" of having a little HD or a lot of HD - only yes or no to presence of the disease. At this point, I don’t think PennHip is totally reliable for our breed; but since the film is made that is the same for OFA, it costs only an extra $30 to send a second copy to OFA. Two tasks and types of research (one for now, for owners who wish to breed soon, and one for the future, that can be used with the PennHip method) can be done with the same xrays.

Once a large enough population is established, PennHip has been shown to be quite effective in decreasing (and even eliminating) HD within closed populations, if high pressure on selection for hips is used. One example is the Seeing Eye Labradors. It’s more effective because a quantitative result is used – a measurement of the laxity (elasticity, or “stretchiness”) of the ligament that makes hips tight/fit correctly, or loose/not fit correctly (HD) - rather than qualitative. It is probably not as effective to use qualitative results, since some dogs with genetics prone to developing HD never get the disease…but still pass the gene to their puppies. It could be hypothesized that these dogs have a higher laxity of the ligament – if bred to another dog with a recessive gene prone to high laxity, they could produce puppies with HD.

All of the 9 CSVs tested so far (including one in Holland, mentioned above, who has the healthiest results) have come from a variety of genetic backgrounds. So far as I know, our highest numbers have been in the high .40s, but I think it’s possible we might have a higher number now - one who shows a lot of evidence of disease. Not all of the tested dogs were selected from parents with good selection for hips…so we do have a variety at this point. Its PennHip’s goal to have an open database of tested dogs (voluntary for the owner), and they are currently working on this.

saschia 20-05-2011 16:30

Thanks elf for the papers, it is interesting read.

OK, so I understand now that there is an absolute number, which I find reassuring. I agree that for the selection it is preferable to use animals from the better group.

But if there was theoretical situation, that all animals in the group would have the DI higher than 0.3, then I think the solution would not be to breed with the animals from the better half, but to selectively import animals with low DI for the improvement. So if there was no absolute number that had some clinical significance, then using only the comparative method would be insufficient in my opinion.

yukidomari 20-05-2011 19:36

"The reliability of the PennHIP method slightly improves with age, with one year 1 year being marginally superior to 6 months, which in turn is marginally better than 4 months. For all dogs, we recommend when possible, to use the mean (average) of repeated evaluations to get a more reliable estimate of a dog's hip laxity status (phenotype)."

That is from PennHIP's site.

All the people I know who have done it with their dogs, have only had it done once. I'm curious as to anyone who has done it repeatedly as PennHIP suggests that under optimal conditions it would be so, and what the results were.

Perhaps we'll do it twice or so just to see?

Also, Marcy, you said, "That said, Roni came up with C/mild HD hips when tested about 10 months later, on a .39 hip." So does that mean it's probably not reliable to do either OFA or PennHIP by itself?

GalomyOak 30-06-2011 18:17

Our first set of PennHip results/comparisons. There are a few more, but I am waiting for results/permission from owners.

Anthea od Vlci Skaly
OFA: Excellent A1 (25 mos)
FCI: *
PENN: .23/.37, No DJD (15 mos)

Taabernakkelin Hronsek
OFA: Mild C (27 mos) Unilateral Left
FCI:*
PENN: 38/.39, No DJD (17 mos)

Wasabogoa Arimminum
OFA: Good A2
FCI:*
PENN: .21/.30 No DJD

Delan van Heimrod
OFA: *
FCI: *
PENN: .25/.19 No DJD

Piter (Panicucci)
OFA: Fair (B)
FCI: B
PENN: .26/.26 No DJD

Elsa Non Solo Lupo
OFA: Good A2
FCI: *
PENN: .20/.20 No DJD

Laika Non Solo Lupo
OFA: Good A2
FCI: *
PENN:; .28/.26 No DJD

Estia D'ell Olim Palus
OFA: Moderate D Unilateral Left
FCI:*
PENN: .41/.47 Moderate DJD Unilateral Left

GalomyOak 25-01-2012 01:46

With this year (and the testing of my A litter, as well as a few other dogs) we should reach the necessary 20 dogs to have comparative statistics for Penn Hip with our breed.

Here is an article comparing the PennHip method with the UK scheme - and of course I have already talked about a comparison to the OFFA scheme: http://research.vet.upenn.edu/Portal...Feb%202010.pdf

PennHip will be holding training sessions for veterinarians in Berlin and Frankfurt, DE (28.04.12 and 29.04.12) this year so vets can become certified - a really great thing to encourage your vets to attend if they aren't too far (only, I don't know if the training will be in German or English) - to make PennHip available more in Europe. :)

Here is more info to pass along to your vet (in German): http://www.pennhip.info/

yukidomari 25-01-2012 02:11

now, if the PennHIP database were open à la OFFA......................

AMERICANI 08-02-2012 01:22

PennHIP Results
 
Marcy, I was curious when you received notification of 9 in their system.. When I sent all of my adults info, they told me there were 13... :shock:
5 of which are mine lol...

GalomyOak 08-02-2012 03:31

I can't remember exactly. I think we are at around 15 now. You can ask on the PennHip Facebook page to be sure, if you want, they are great about responding. I am planning on adding Corgan and Asha to the database later this year (Corgan in April, Asha when she turns 2). I think Jing will be testing her dog later on, and hopefully my other puppy owners from the A litter will also test (though it would be great to get a variety of lines from all owners). That should get us over the 20 dog hump...yikes, hill probably sounds better than hump...:p

AMERICANI 09-02-2012 02:21

LOL! :lol:

yukidomari 28-02-2012 02:59

Just an FYI but if anyone also has Embrace Pet Insurance, if you have PennHIP'd dogs less than .30, you can get a 5% discount :)

yukidomari 01-03-2012 21:47

I count 8 dogs in your list, Marcy.. and PennHIP says there're 15 now.

Who has the other 7 dogs, and is willing to share results? :)

Pete 09-03-2012 05:38

pennhip results
 
Lapua Zlata-Palz
left .43 no DJD
right n/a due to cavitation no DJD.
acording to my pennhip vet if they felt the right hip were bad they would not have scored him. 70th percentile
Alaqua Whispering Wolf
left .33 no DJD
right .40 no DJD 80th percentile

yukidomari 30-03-2012 07:37

Ilysia z Lasow Preczowskich (18 weeks)
OFFA: not available due to age
PennHIP: 0.44/0.46, No DJD

Wintermoon z Lasow Preczowskich (15 months)
OFFA: Preliminary Good, A-2
PennHIP: 0.26/0.26, No DJD

We will be repeating the scores at 24 months and up, and moving these scores onto offa.org.

yukidomari 02-04-2013 21:42

As of February 2013, there are 15 total dogs worldwide who have had their hips scored through PennHIP.

This year I think we will definitely reach the 20 dogs necessary to establish a minimum useable breed baseline!

Asha z Dubnicanky was screened in March of 2013 (results pending).

Galomy Oak Calypso, Churel II z Peronowki, Galomy Oak Big Sky, Gran Oro Sol Atropa Bella Donna and possibly Galomy Oak Benelli and Balthazar AmeriCani will all be radiographed in this year. I think there is one more from A-Galomy Oak (but I don't know which dog). :grosscool

yukidomari 04-06-2013 19:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by GalomyOak (Bericht 391767)
Our first set of PennHip results/comparisons. There are a few more, but I am waiting for results/permission from owners.

Anthea od Vlci Skaly
OFA: Excellent A1 (25 mos)
FCI: *
PENN: .23/.37, No DJD (15 mos)

Taabernakkelin Hronsek
OFA: Mild C (27 mos) Unilateral Left
FCI:*
PENN: 38/.39, No DJD (17 mos)

Wasabogoa Arimminum
OFA: Good A2
FCI:*
PENN: .21/.30 No DJD

Delan van Heimrod
OFA: *
FCI: *
PENN: .25/.19 No DJD

Piter (Panicucci)
OFA: Fair (B)
FCI: B
PENN: .26/.26 No DJD

Elsa Non Solo Lupo
OFA: Good A2
FCI: *
PENN: .20/.20 No DJD

Laika Non Solo Lupo
OFA: Good A2
FCI: *
PENN:; .28/.26 No DJD

Estia D'ell Olim Palus
OFA: Moderate D Unilateral Left
FCI:*
PENN: .41/.47 Moderate DJD Unilateral Left

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete (Bericht 424984)
Lapua Zlata-Palz
left .43 no DJD
right n/a due to cavitation no DJD.

Alaqua Whispering Wolf
left .33 no DJD
right .40 no DJD 80th percentile

Quote:

Originally Posted by yukidomari (Bericht 427470)
Ilysia z Lasow Preczowskich (18 weeks)
OFFA: not available due to age
PennHIP: 0.44/0.46, No DJD

Wintermoon z Lasow Preczowskich (15 months)
OFFA: Preliminary Good, A-2
PennHIP: 0.26/0.26, No DJD

Along with the above 12 known scores here are two more scores (publicly available on breeders' sites):

Garm Braterstwo Wilczakow (17 months)
OFFA: not done
PennHIP: 0.30/0.24, No DJD

Asha z Dubnicanky
OFFA: Fair (B1)
PennHIP: 0.35/0.40, DJD ?

yukidomari 04-11-2013 18:59

According to an inquiry sent to PennHIP today, as of August 2013 there are 18 Czechoslovakian Vlcaks who have had PennHIP evaluations.


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