[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by massimo

Was there a maximum in the past (it seems from some replies No)

I heard that historical there was maximum size for CLT: 70 cm for male and 65 cm for female before. I heard that F. Rosik from Slovakia told about one of the Italian males (during a dog show in Nitra) that the male is too BIG (maybe it was because the male was looking so DIFFERENT from other dogs in the youth class - light coloured, very long, with different body build). And even now many breeders in origin countries are ashamed if their females are bigger then 65cm. The reasons is: there MUST be VISIBLE difference between female and male. Huge females get very often worser notes and text "too masculine".

Originally Posted by massimo

-Shouldn't there be a limit in order to avoid getting "camel"-like dogs?

But there IS the maximum written in the breed standard. It is hidden in the 'cynological' speak but it is there... Look in the "GENERAL APPEARANCE:". You can find there words "Above average size". No words about "LARGE size". Average size are breeds where males have max 65cm. Most of the breeds which are described as "large size"" start already at 70 cm... By CzW there is written "above average size" (no words like "a medium to large size" which would mean that big dogs are also 'welcome'). So according to the standard Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs should be 65-70cm... "Camels" are not "typical" CzW...

The same info you can find in the bonitation card. Look on the codes for sizes:
An - height under 65 cm for males and 60 cm for females
As - 65-70cm for males and 60-65 cm for females
Av - over 70cm for males and 65 cm for females

What mean the abbreviations? 'n' = "nízký", means low/small. 's' = střední, means middle, and 'v' = vysoký, means large/high.
And it means that a male of 68 cm has AVERAGE (MIDDLE) size. And female of 68cm is not typical but LARGE. The same with males over 70cm....



Even the wolves are not so HUGE. I know many people look on the Canadian and American Wolves in the movies or TV (and their height of even 90cm) but CLT should look like EUROPEAN Wolves which are red coloured and not so big. Here you have some examples:
** adult wolf and adult CLT (69) - as you can see the wolf is smaller
http://www.wolfdog.org/pol/gallery/pic23381.html
*** here you see other adult (and pretty large) european wolves and adult CLT male (70cm) - as you can see the CLT is much higher as the wolves
http://www.wolfdog.org/pol/gallery/pic27961.html
This photos were taken in Czech Republic but we have similar photos with European Wolves from Poland, Slovakian and Hungary... And it is really not true that wolves are huge...

European Wolves have about 70cm (males). The average size of adult CzW is about 67,54. So you can see the difference is only about 2.5 cm... But more important is the weight - the European Wolves have 70 cm but weight about 41kg (females about 32kg). It is MUCH less than by most CzW where you can see 67 cm high CzW with 65 kg... Simply said - many CzWs are TOO fat (too heavy) -> NO MORE TYPICAL, NO MORE WOLFISH. Expecially when you look on the large CzW (over 70cm) you will see that most of them look more like South Asian Ovtscharkas than Wolves... And it is the main problem... I know breeders of large dogs say their dog move light, that wolves are also large and, and, and... They are simple totally sure only their Wolfdogs are right. But when you look on their dogs you ask yourself - HE? THIS LARGE SHEPHERD IS CALLED A WOLFDOG?

I'm not a big friend of CzW which are on the minimum size... A nice wolfish male with 68, 69 or 70cm looks ALWAYS better than nice wolfish male with 65 cm... But I know the reality and it is almost not possible to find "nice wolfish male" which is over 70 cm... So it is the reason why I use for my females dogs of average size but TYPICAL... I will never use a male only because the male is BIG. The size is for me one of the last things which count for me when I'm choosing a stud dog...

Originally Posted by massimo

why is maybe the "best hight" in between these values(68 for example)? maybe because it's easier to maintain proportions on an average hight dog without the risk of having a heavy head with loose lip and big chest (too high) or having short legs and weak bones (too short).

Yes - it is the most common reason.... 99.999% of the "wolfish" CzWs are not higher than 70 cm Why? Because in the most cases when you look in the pedigrees of the HUGE CzWs you will see that not the genes of a Wolf but the genes of a German Shepherd Dogs are responsible for such huge size.... The biggest and heaviest CzW have a lot of GSD blood in their veins - comming mainly from the last crossing (Kazan z PS and his offspring which were not Wolfdogs but HUGE BLACK GERMAN SHEPHERD DOGS) - it is the reason why you can meet heaviest and largest CzW almost only in Czech Republic by the "old lines".

Originally Posted by massimo

if you manage to find a strong, tall, well proportioned, with a light movement male of 72cm, would you rather use him in breeding or a 65cm very light male with a wonderful looking wolfish head although not so elegant?
OR would you simply use them both in the same way according to the "right" female?

What do you mean with "light movement"? Even bulldogs can move "light" - compared to other dogs of their breed... But there is other problem - you wrote about italian forum and it fits very well because I saw some large dogs from Italy which are at the same time VERY long (with the index of format much higher than 111). Such dogs move LIGHT but not like WOLFDOGS. I know some breeders like to breed so long dogs because the judges (all-rounders) like such movement (long trot) but it is not the typical CzW movement described in the breed standard.
The second problem is visibiel not only in Italy but also in other countries - many owners of large dog say "my dog is huge but moves light" but it is also not what we mean with "harmonious, light footed, ground covering trot". Why? Because their dogs are build like GSD - have large and broad chests, strong angulation of the legs, longer bodies. Such dogs also seem to move "light" but like light "old German Shepherd Dogs"...

Simply said - in the most cases when the owners of large CzWs say their Wolfdogs move "light" the dogs really have light movement but not light movement of Czechoslovakian Wolfdog.... In Poland we have even Wolfdogs which look like perfect GSDs (the only difference is they have white mask and are not black but also their owners will even swear also their dogs move light... So I never believe whan someone says a CzW moves light until I have not seen this dog with my own eyes...

...BUT...

if we really have the case that I must choose between large, well proportioned CzW with light movement and a not so elegant male with wolfish head I will take the first one. Why? Because the head can be changed pretty fast with the right selection. But it is VERY hard to "repair" wrong proportions and unharmonious body build...you need GENERATIONS to make it right....

Originally Posted by massimo

Should breeders tend to select more compact/smaller/wolfish csws?
Should breeders tend to select more tall/elegant/powerful csws?

First problem is - many breeders make mistake and are not able to distinguish between HEAVY Wolfdogs and WELL BONED Wolfdogs... So a "wolfish" CzW can be at the same time also "powerful". "Small" can be also "elegant" (as I already wrote in the most cases wolfdog of the average size are more elegant than the tall ). So the breeders should breed Wolfdogs which are:
compact/elegant/wolfish/powerful...

Originally Posted by fenris

Still in the french you can see one breeder say that make one improvement of the breed in the country breeding females that arrive at 72cm high.

"Improvement"???? Sorry, but I know breeders which were hidding the information that their females are higher that 65cm... Because it is nothing to be proud of it...
Our friends have female which ist ("only" ) 67.5 and they heard already more times that an expert judge said "Sorry, but male were already judged"... Or - "who are the parents of this male..."
Sure - there are also females which are 62 cm and look "heavy" and masculine like CzW males. But there are almost no large females which still look typical and feminine... And I still writing about females with the size 67-68 and not 72(!)cm....

Originally Posted by fenris

But when it comes to size I think special attention must be kept on this factor to prevent loss of size through the generations. For some reason that I dont really understand, it seems that a decrease in size often occur when inbreeding or linebreeding. Last time I saw a group of Checkoslovakian wolfdogs they looked smaller than some years earlier.

I would also not say it - the Wolfdogs are not getting smaller but bigger. And there is HUGE difference when you compare the look of the Wolfdogs bred 10 years ago and now - in the most cases "new" CzW are much more "wolfish". But the judges do not preffer small dogs but too large (I mean heavy) - they really do not look how typical a dog is. The judge according the rule: "the heavier the better".

=================

But back to the main topic: there are much more important reasons why people do not want to breed very huge CLT:

1) I would say about 99% of the CLT males which are bigger than 70 cm do not have the typical body and look. In the most cases such CLTs are too heavy and look more like huge GSD or Molosses and are no more 'wolfish'...

2) Huge (-> heavy) dogs have much often problem with the hips - with HD and even ED

3) Huge dogs are no more resilient and are not able to run long distances (which is one of the most typical features of this breed)... We saw that in the most cases large CLT have even problems to run 20 km. And are not able to pass 40km runs...

4) The best working CLT are of average size. Large dogs are too heavy and too lazy to get any better results in training. You will see that the best working males (with the most passed exams) are: 68, 67, 68, 68, 68, 67 cm. And females: 61.5, 64, 64, 63, 61, 64, 62.5 cm. As you can see all of them are of average or small size. The only big dog with nice exams is Hero od Uhoste but he is also very slim and typical looking (not one of the Moloss type CLT). I know of course two CLTs with many exams - one is 71cm and second 70.5 but the owners stopped to make exams with them because they were so heavy so they get HUGE problems with their hips and it was not possible to work with them anymore...

So it is the reason why none of the important breeders has as goal to breed huge dogs... They care for the typical wolfish look, for the right character, for the right indexes. But not for the size... The only important thing is: the CLT should not be too small. If a dog is over the 70 cm it is not a problem but ONLY if the dog is typical...