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yukidomari · 22-04-2010, 23:32

Re: raw, all ya gotta do is think about the thousands of years before the advent of kibble which has only been around since '40s for proof.

That, and the fact that dogs are the same species as wolves.

It is not optimal for a dog to eat the equivalent of cereal in lieu of actual food for all its life IMHO.

But, if it's not for you, it's not.

Higher protein has not been linked to developmental problems; it is the high cals/phos traditionally in high protein diets that are responsible for that.

Here are some facts, quoted from a friend in English Mastiffs, that generally dispel the myths surrounding high protein:

"Taken from Relationship of Nutrition to Developmental Skeletal Disease in Young Dogs by Daniel C. Richardson & Phillip W. Toll
It is too little protein that will actually cause skeletal problems in growing puppies.

Unlike other species, protein excess has not been demonstrated to negatively affect calcium metabolism or skeletal development in dogs. Protein deficiency, however, has more impact on the developing skeleton. In Great Dane puppies, a protein level of 14.6% (dry matter basis) with 13% of the dietary energy derived from protein can result in significant decreases in bodyweight and plasma albumin and urea concentrations.9,10 The minimum adequate level of dietary protein depends on digestibility, amino acids, and their availability from protein sources. A growth food should contain > 22% protein (dry matter basis) of high biologic value"

Myth: I need to switch my large breed puppy to an adult food at 4-6 mos of age or else he will grow too fast and get a growth disorder.

Fact: (taken from the same source as above) Adult foods are often calorically less dense and have lower protein levels. Therefore, in order to get all that your puppy needs, you would need to feed more of the food. This causes an increase in the calcium levels, which could then result in a growth disorder.
Often puppies are switched from growth to maintenance-type foods to avoid calcium excess and skeletal disease. However, because some maintenance foods have much lower energy density than growth foods, the puppy must consume more dry matter volume to meet its energy requirement. If the calcium levels are similar (dry matter basis) between the two foods, the puppy will actually consume more calcium when fed the maintenance food. This point is exemplified in the case of switching a 15-week-old, 15-kg male Rottweiler puppy from a growth food containing, on an as fed b asis, 4.0 kcal/g metabolizable energy and 1.35% calcium (1.5% on a dry matter basis) to a maintenance food containing the same amount of calcium but at a lower, 3.2 kcal/g energy density. The puppy would require approximately 1,600 kcal/day. In order to meet this energy need the puppy would consume approximately 400g of the growth food (containing 5.4g of calcium) vs. 500g of the maintenance food (containing approximately 6.7g of calcium)."

Italics are direct quotes from the study.

Here's another:

http://sonic.net/~cdlcruz/GPCC/library/Optimal%20feeding%20of%20large%20breed%20puppies.p df

"The common practice of feeding commercially available adult dog foods to puppies can also be detrimental. The broad category of adult canine maintenance foods contains diets with a wide range of nutrient profiles, caloric densities, and mineral contents. Some foods marketed for adult maintenance have passed AAFCO feeding tests for growth, but some have not."

"Many nutrients have been studied to determine which components of these diets cause problems. Over 30 years ago a significant amount of data was published that established a connection between improper nutrition and a variety of skeletal abnormalities in Great Danes, including hypertrophic osteodystrophy, osteochondrosis dissecans and 'wobbler' syndrome. The experimental diets varied in protein, energy density, and minerals, and it was unclear which factor or combination thereof contributed to the developmental bone diseases observed in the initial studies (Hedhammar, et. al. 1974). The same group went on to investigate the individual dietary components and demonstrated that dietary protein level had no effect on the development of osteochondrosis (Nap, et. al, 1991). For some reason, dietary protein level continues to be incriminated by some owners, breeders, and veterinarians, despite the lack of supportive evidence."

"One common misconception is that commercially prepared premium dog foods contain excessive quantities of protein that may be detrimental to the growing larger breed dog by supporting too rapid a growth rate. This is not
confirmed by controlled research, and fortunately, support for this misconception is diminishing. Much of the research presented in this chapter
has been conducted in the growing Great Dane. Although this is obviously a non-sporting breed, its use as a model for other large breeds,
including the sporting breeds, is considered very appropriate due to its extremely rapid growth rate.
Growing Great Danes consuming diets with identical calorie content, but providing a broad range of dietary protein (31.6%, 23.1% or
14.6% protein), from weaning to 18 weeks displayed no evidence of protein effect on calcium metabolism or skeletal development.1,2 Changes
consistent with disturbed bone development were observed to be equally distributed across diet groups, indicating no specific effect of
dietary protein concentration. Although the high-protein diet did not promote any detectable negative effect on skeletal development, the
low-protein diet was considered only marginally sufficient for the growing Great Dane in these diets, providing approximately 3,600 kcal
metabolizable energy (ME)/kg of diet.

Body weight was significantly reduced in the dogs consuming the low-protein (14.6%) diet, relative to those fed the high-protein diet
(31.6%) at 13 and 15 weeks of age, while plasma albumin concentrations, which are important for good overall health, remained with the low-protein diet throughout the study. This demonstrates that the protein concentration typically incorporated into premium dog foods does not increase the manifestation of skeletal disease in the growing large breed dog, but that it is possible to reduce the dietary protein level
to a point where the provision of nutrients is marginal. When evaluating the dietary protein concentration, balance of the protein and energy
is the most important concern in commercial diets for growing large breed dogs."

http://www.eukanuba-scienceonline.co...d/slibrary/Spo rting%20Dog_2002.pdf

"High dietary protein levels have long been implicated with
disturbances in the development of the skeleton in growing
dogs resulting in disabling conditions like osteochondrosis
and elbow dysplasia.Both in breeder and laymen discussions,
but also amongst veterinarians, this myth was communicated
without any scientific substantiation."

"Research concerning growth and calcium metabolism in
giant and small breed dogs has lead to the conclusion
that giant and large breed dogs are more prone to
disorders of the skeletal development compared to small
breed dogs if they consume a high calcium content
food1,14"

http://www.eukanuba-scienceonline.co...eding_high.pdf

A paper from University of Pennsylvania Veterinary Medical school, one of the leading veterinary schools in the nation:

"Why Have We Chosen to Keep the Reduced Protein Myth?

The myth has been maintained even in the past decade
despite negative scientific evidence because the dogma has
persisted about its value for the past 40 years. If we as professionals
are uncertain about the facts concerning a controversy,
we are likely to put ourselves in someone else’s
hands who appears to have authority. Power to command
this authority is in the hands of commercial advertisements
that promote these special products with misleading messages.
Marketing is aggressively aimed at veterinarians and
owners alike. There is a profit motive for veterinarians to
sell these diets. The public has a nutritional mania and preoccupation
with diet in our society. Dietary change has assumed
the status of medical treatment using such terms as
intervention, maintenance, and correction. The profession
and the public do not appreciate that advertising claims
come without proof in the case of diets. Owners can easily
be enrolled to accept such diet change because they feel
they are involved in doing something constructive. Professional
responsibility has been lost in this case. The situation
can remind us that we are part of an uncritical profession
with little review or standards. When scientific proof fails
to justify a practice, a false myth may likely live on.
In conclusion, the continued existence of this false myth
about dietary protein is an uncomfortable reminder of the
lack of sophistication, lack of critical thought, and reliance
on oversimplified and attractive dogma that persists in our
profession. This is only one example of many false myths,
misinformation, and partial truths that are repeated from
decade to decade. Until a more critical approach with standards
and oversight are brought to bear in our profession,
we will likely continue to be ensnared in false myths despite
the presence of sound science.
References"

http://www.orijen.ca/orijen/Myths_of_High_Protein.pdf

22-04-2010, 23:32	#5
yukidomari Moderator Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Los Angeles CA Posts: 847	Re: raw, all ya gotta do is think about the thousands of years before the advent of kibble which has only been around since '40s for proof. That, and the fact that dogs are the same species as wolves. It is not optimal for a dog to eat the equivalent of cereal in lieu of actual food for all its life IMHO. But, if it's not for you, it's not. Higher protein has not been linked to developmental problems; it is the high cals/phos traditionally in high protein diets that are responsible for that. Here are some facts, quoted from a friend in English Mastiffs, that generally dispel the myths surrounding high protein: "Taken from Relationship of Nutrition to Developmental Skeletal Disease in Young Dogs by Daniel C. Richardson & Phillip W. Toll It is too little protein that will actually cause skeletal problems in growing puppies. Unlike other species, protein excess has not been demonstrated to negatively affect calcium metabolism or skeletal development in dogs. Protein deficiency, however, has more impact on the developing skeleton. In Great Dane puppies, a protein level of 14.6% (dry matter basis) with 13% of the dietary energy derived from protein can result in significant decreases in bodyweight and plasma albumin and urea concentrations.9,10 The minimum adequate level of dietary protein depends on digestibility, amino acids, and their availability from protein sources. A growth food should contain > 22% protein (dry matter basis) of high biologic value" Myth: I need to switch my large breed puppy to an adult food at 4-6 mos of age or else he will grow too fast and get a growth disorder. Fact: (taken from the same source as above) Adult foods are often calorically less dense and have lower protein levels. Therefore, in order to get all that your puppy needs, you would need to feed more of the food. This causes an increase in the calcium levels, which could then result in a growth disorder. Often puppies are switched from growth to maintenance-type foods to avoid calcium excess and skeletal disease. However, because some maintenance foods have much lower energy density than growth foods, the puppy must consume more dry matter volume to meet its energy requirement. If the calcium levels are similar (dry matter basis) between the two foods, the puppy will actually consume more calcium when fed the maintenance food. This point is exemplified in the case of switching a 15-week-old, 15-kg male Rottweiler puppy from a growth food containing, on an as fed b asis, 4.0 kcal/g metabolizable energy and 1.35% calcium (1.5% on a dry matter basis) to a maintenance food containing the same amount of calcium but at a lower, 3.2 kcal/g energy density. The puppy would require approximately 1,600 kcal/day. In order to meet this energy need the puppy would consume approximately 400g of the growth food (containing 5.4g of calcium) vs. 500g of the maintenance food (containing approximately 6.7g of calcium)." Italics are direct quotes from the study. Here's another: http://sonic.net/~cdlcruz/GPCC/library/Optimal%20feeding%20of%20large%20breed%20puppies.p df "The common practice of feeding commercially available adult dog foods to puppies can also be detrimental. The broad category of adult canine maintenance foods contains diets with a wide range of nutrient profiles, caloric densities, and mineral contents. Some foods marketed for adult maintenance have passed AAFCO feeding tests for growth, but some have not." "Many nutrients have been studied to determine which components of these diets cause problems. Over 30 years ago a significant amount of data was published that established a connection between improper nutrition and a variety of skeletal abnormalities in Great Danes, including hypertrophic osteodystrophy, osteochondrosis dissecans and 'wobbler' syndrome. The experimental diets varied in protein, energy density, and minerals, and it was unclear which factor or combination thereof contributed to the developmental bone diseases observed in the initial studies (Hedhammar, et. al. 1974). The same group went on to investigate the individual dietary components and demonstrated that dietary protein level had no effect on the development of osteochondrosis (Nap, et. al, 1991). For some reason, dietary protein level continues to be incriminated by some owners, breeders, and veterinarians, despite the lack of supportive evidence." "One common misconception is that commercially prepared premium dog foods contain excessive quantities of protein that may be detrimental to the growing larger breed dog by supporting too rapid a growth rate. This is not confirmed by controlled research, and fortunately, support for this misconception is diminishing. Much of the research presented in this chapter has been conducted in the growing Great Dane. Although this is obviously a non-sporting breed, its use as a model for other large breeds, including the sporting breeds, is considered very appropriate due to its extremely rapid growth rate. Growing Great Danes consuming diets with identical calorie content, but providing a broad range of dietary protein (31.6%, 23.1% or 14.6% protein), from weaning to 18 weeks displayed no evidence of protein effect on calcium metabolism or skeletal development.1,2 Changes consistent with disturbed bone development were observed to be equally distributed across diet groups, indicating no specific effect of dietary protein concentration. Although the high-protein diet did not promote any detectable negative effect on skeletal development, the low-protein diet was considered only marginally sufficient for the growing Great Dane in these diets, providing approximately 3,600 kcal metabolizable energy (ME)/kg of diet. Body weight was significantly reduced in the dogs consuming the low-protein (14.6%) diet, relative to those fed the high-protein diet (31.6%) at 13 and 15 weeks of age, while plasma albumin concentrations, which are important for good overall health, remained with the low-protein diet throughout the study. This demonstrates that the protein concentration typically incorporated into premium dog foods does not increase the manifestation of skeletal disease in the growing large breed dog, but that it is possible to reduce the dietary protein level to a point where the provision of nutrients is marginal. When evaluating the dietary protein concentration, balance of the protein and energy is the most important concern in commercial diets for growing large breed dogs." http://www.eukanuba-scienceonline.co...d/slibrary/Spo rting%20Dog_2002.pdf "High dietary protein levels have long been implicated with disturbances in the development of the skeleton in growing dogs resulting in disabling conditions like osteochondrosis and elbow dysplasia.Both in breeder and laymen discussions, but also amongst veterinarians, this myth was communicated without any scientific substantiation." "Research concerning growth and calcium metabolism in giant and small breed dogs has lead to the conclusion that giant and large breed dogs are more prone to disorders of the skeletal development compared to small breed dogs if they consume a high calcium content food1,14" http://www.eukanuba-scienceonline.co...eding_high.pdf A paper from University of Pennsylvania Veterinary Medical school, one of the leading veterinary schools in the nation: "Why Have We Chosen to Keep the Reduced Protein Myth? The myth has been maintained even in the past decade despite negative scientific evidence because the dogma has persisted about its value for the past 40 years. If we as professionals are uncertain about the facts concerning a controversy, we are likely to put ourselves in someone else’s hands who appears to have authority. Power to command this authority is in the hands of commercial advertisements that promote these special products with misleading messages. Marketing is aggressively aimed at veterinarians and owners alike. There is a profit motive for veterinarians to sell these diets. The public has a nutritional mania and preoccupation with diet in our society. Dietary change has assumed the status of medical treatment using such terms as intervention, maintenance, and correction. The profession and the public do not appreciate that advertising claims come without proof in the case of diets. Owners can easily be enrolled to accept such diet change because they feel they are involved in doing something constructive. Professional responsibility has been lost in this case. The situation can remind us that we are part of an uncritical profession with little review or standards. When scientific proof fails to justify a practice, a false myth may likely live on. In conclusion, the continued existence of this false myth about dietary protein is an uncomfortable reminder of the lack of sophistication, lack of critical thought, and reliance on oversimplified and attractive dogma that persists in our profession. This is only one example of many false myths, misinformation, and partial truths that are repeated from decade to decade. Until a more critical approach with standards and oversight are brought to bear in our profession, we will likely continue to be ensnared in false myths despite the presence of sound science. References" http://www.orijen.ca/orijen/Myths_of_High_Protein.pdf Last edited by yukidomari; 23-04-2010 at 01:12.