[Huan]

if they receive the same socialization and training so it's obvious that's not possible.

It is exactly what I mean. Most of the CzWs has potential and it's only a matter of the owner what he will do with it. But everybody is saying about working line of Hasso but noone mentioned "working lines" of Milo Ruskov dvor, Grey wolf z Molu Es, Aron Maly Bysterec, Ajbix Mrazive ticho, Argos Mrazive ticho or Ali Reolup which gave mostly much better characters then Hasso. So it is the reason why it makes me laugh when I hear about working line of Hasso.

Originally Posted by massimo

But we can make an "opposite" calculation: how many dogs have ipo or equivalent today? does any of them have the same percentage of DIRECT SONS like Hasso in all the history of wolfdogs?

Yes. Fast example:
Asta z Tondova - 23 offsprings from which 5 has at least ZVV1 - it makes 5/23 = 21,74%

However it's still not the point. In the times when Asta was having puppies there were much bigger interest in training with wolfdogs. Many people did something with their dogs. They didn't buy their wolfdogs as family pets.

What I cannot deny is that usually a wolfdog with higher amount of passed exams can have more offsprings with exams. BUT.... in 99% of cases it is nothing more than self-fulfilling prophecy: people looking for a puppy for work are looking on the training results of the parents and are buying the puppy because they want to train and pass exams. So they usually start to train the dog faster than people who bought their puppy not for work. This is the reason why a dog with IPO can have more offsprings with passed exams. But from here there is a far way to genetical inheritage - the owners of such puppies work harder and not that the puppies are better in character (of course we are talking in general).

Originally Posted by massimo

cannot make this calculation as I do not have direct access to your database.
3/34=8.8%, and 34 is an interesting population (if it was 1 ipo out of 2 puppies number would NOT be significant).

And I mentioned 6 wolfdogs that were shy (and I mean really scared dogs not just less couriagous) - 6/34 = 17,64%. I bet that this percentage is also higher than in many other lines. So we have theoretically a chance of 8% that the offspring of Hasso will have IPO and 17% that it will shy and will pass no exams

Originally Posted by massimo

Big male studs (ex.Milo/Cutt/Clover/Charon/etc.) have same or similar coincidences with more than one direct son IPO?

Don't we have equality of rights? What about females? Why do you say that the character is inherited only from the father side?


You can find dogs with IPO in the countries where people do protection work. 99% of all dogs with IPO and similar are Czech CzWs because you can train protection and obedience in almost every village there. In other countries people do mostly obedience. Hasso was bred in Czech Republic, most of his offsprings stayed in Czech hands, also Kelt, Argos, Ajbix, Hero are all dogs owned by Czech people. They have very good conditions there to train protection work. There are no problems with doing protection with wolfdog like in Holland or France where protection work with CzW is forbidden. It doesn't mean that there are no wolfdogs with good character that could be "working dogs" there. Look at the percentage of dogs with exams in the countries. If we count it then Italy will have one of the lowest number of working dogs compared to the population (single cases vs 1500 wolfdogs). Do you want to say that dogs in Italy are useless for work because the percentage is low? I think it mostly because people aren't interested in training.

So because there are very few people working with their dogs and people working professionaly are even less we can't say anything about working lines based on exams. It just says that the owners do something with their dog.

Massimo, don't take me wrong. I don't want to hurt any breeders or dogs. In the fact I should be one of the first people which should shout: "yes, there are working lines. I have working dogs, I have working lines, I breed working puppies" because we would profit the most from such story. I and Margo made with our dogs over 30 exams, took part several times part in competitions (not only for CzWs) and the percentage of pups from our kennel which have some exams is higher than by many other breeders. Maybe that is the reason why I see how big influence on working dogs has an "working owner". In most cases it's a credit for the owner not for the extraordinary working genetics.