[z Peronówki]

WOW - great topic...

Originally Posted by massimo

The example of shyness i don't think fits because from all sons of Hasso you mention only 6 of the sons made with Cira Volani rodu, and i honestly wouldn't compare shyness (present in a EXTREEMLY HIGH percentage of CSW...) with an Ipo1..

Sorry, but I do not see that the problem was only with the dogs Hasso x Cira - I know even more dogs from Hasso's line than Przemek. Przemek mentioned one dog from the litter Hasso x Doubravka. Not shy but there was NO working interest by this dog... And the owners started to train their dog already when they took it home - they visited training field FREQUENTLY (because they had working HASSO puppy of course). Without any result.... At the age of 2 years the dog was not even able to pass the basic obedience exam... so the owners gave up...
From the litter Hasso x Ambra one dog is REALLY working dog (Ira), one is shy and one has serious reaction on shooting.
About Hasso x Cira Przemek already wrote everything...
The only mating - Hasso x Ajbix - gave good characters but not thanks to Hasso but thanks to Ajbix. Ajbix has VERY specific character and everyone who knows her will confirm Kelt is 100% mother in the look and character...

Anyway we have funny situation in Poland which shows the whole problem - people which are looking for a puppy with NICE and "working" character check first if there is NO Hasso in the pedigree... Funny but I'm not joking because if you will visit some dog shows here one day and you will see some of the dogs lying scared on the ground in the ring, hiding behind their owners you will almost for sure see offspring of our polish "Hasso working line"....


Anyway - Hasso had 6 litters. One (with Aretha Hanka z Vlasatic) "disappeared". Puppies from 4 matings (with 3 females) have pretty high number of VERY shy dogs. Only one litter have good characters... Sorry but speaking in this case about exceptional working blood and working line is..... senseless.

Originally Posted by massimo

If I wanted to work with a dog, I would surely take a pup from (or from a very near offspring of) one of these dogs:
Asta, Ajbix, Kelt, Argos, Hero, Hasso, Upstream...etc.
I wouldn't personally choose a son of others if that was my intention. Maybe your're right, maybe it's just a self-fulfilling prophecy, I want a working dog, i take a hypothetic working line, i work hard and i contribute to make a working line so.
it's a matter of choice.

Before I bought my first CzW I always owned German Shepherd Dogs.... It is still pretty easy to find very good working dogs of this breed. I "switched" to CzW because of their HEALTH, CHARACTER and LOOK. 3 important things to me...And because of this:

- I would not buy a puppy of 4 dogs listed by you because their puppies have more similar characteristics with shepherds than wolves. And if I would like a good working dog which also LOOKS like shepherd dog I would not buy a CzW but stay by German Shepherd Dogs.... Simply said: a dog which DO NOT look like Czechoslovakian Wolfdog according the breed standard (it means which is not WOLFISH) is not for me a TYPICAL Czechoslovakian Wolfdog EVEN if such dogs is nice working dog.

- I would not buy a puppy of 1 more dog listed by you because of visibile hips problems by the offsprings. I do not own GSD anymore because I don't want to have a dog which is "invalid". If a dogs have great character but problems with the hips his great character is for nothing because such dog will be NEVER good material for working dog. I know 2 CzWs with super character which already passed some important exams but the owners had to stop to work with them because the dogs got problems to jump and to move...

If I would look for a puppy I will take into consideration ONLY 2 dogs from your list and few more from my own list which "guarantee" not only good CHARACTER but also TYPICAL look for this breed and famous great HEALTH... For sure you will agree with me that it make no sense to buy a Czechoslovakian Wolfdog which LOOKS like GSD, which has CHARACTER like GSD and which have bad HEALTH like GSD....

Originally Posted by hanninadina

good character? Oh I think there are working dogs without good character. And someone mentionted it, working dogs could be dominant, aggressiv, powerful be. From my point of view you will find the same amount of good and bad character dogs in "normal" dogs and in working dogs. It depends on the gene and on the way they are raised up from puppy.

Yes, you are right... "Working dog" is great thing but only if it is owned by a person which has enough TIME, WILL and EXPERIENCE to handle such dog... I know how many serious problems had some of the owners of dogs listed here... And some of them still have problems even if the dogs passed many exams...

But there is also another thing which was not mentioned here (maybe a little bit by Saschia). What is a WORKING CZECHOSLOVAKIAN WOLFDOG?
Is working CzW dog which has great herding instinct and is working with the herd?
Is working CzW dog which has so lazy and dominant character which make him great guard dog (watch dog)?
Is working CzW dog which behaves like GSD and has character like GSD?
Is working CzW dog which love to pull things and works as sled dog?

NO. NONE of these dogs are good working Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs because they make something else as Hartl's idea for this breed....

Look on the standard: typical CzW must be "lively, active, tough, obedient with quick reactions". It means FAST, QUICK, RESISTANT, ACTIVE. Many of the dogs which were listed as "nice working dogs" are HEAVY and LAZY. They have stable characters but are they typical as Wolfdogs? Can a dog which has problems to pass 40km run because he is too heavy to run so long distances be called WORKING CzW even if it has IPO1?

Another thing: Hartl was always saying that CzW were made for tracking work. It was THEIR domain where CzW were unbeatable. So I would say the working line of CzW should be made of dogs which are FAST and ACTIVE and on the same time which have great "nose". So for me there is 1 really WORKING CZECHOSLOVAKIAN WOLFDOG (not just "working dog") according to the exams which the dog passed: Hero od Úhoště that passed IPO-FH2 and took part (with nice results) in national tracking dogs championship....

Originally Posted by saschia

3) Material for working dog (my Frei): "You want me to sit? OK, I sit, will there be something good? Oh, you are pleased with me, I'm glad... Can we play now?"

4) Working addict: "Yeah I sit! What next? Quick, tell something!"

A CzW can be 3) and 4) on the same time... 3 when the dog makes something what it does not like to do. And 4 when it makes his favourite exercises...

Originally Posted by Rona

I personally think that only if
1. a really huge number of CSVs (preferably all of them ) were trained with the same methods, by the same people, who would devote more or less the same amount of time to their training
2. later the effects were measured in the same way, by the same judges in similar conditions
3. the results were objectively compared with statistical methods

we could honestly start making generalisations, comparisons and speak of working and non-working lines.

I think it is the most important thing which was written here - it is exactly what also Przemek wrote... We can not compare dogs which owners train with them and dogs which owners do nothing because in the first case we will get so called "working line" and in second "non-working line" EVEN if the dogs from the second group will have much better character than from the first group... There are too many factors which have HUGE influence on the character of the dog and his results by training...