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Old 04-06-2009, 22:55   #1
Mikael
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Question Breed History Questions

Hello all breed experts, I need some help again I Wright about the history of the breed in English, but need help from you. As there are no books about the breed in English, it is hard fore me to find these facts...

As I understand the last pure wolf was mixed into the breed in 1983 (Laydy)...

And as I understand there was totally 42 GSD used under the experiment/development of the breed…

My questions are...

Which year was the last pure GSD mixed into the breed ???

Is 42 GSD the correct number ???

Is there a list of all GSD that was added into the CsV breed ???

Very happy for answers , Best regards / Mikael
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Old 05-06-2009, 02:40   #2
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Hello Michael,

The last year a pure GSD was used for breeding was 1983. It was the gsd Bojar vom Schotterhof which was crossed with the pure carpathian wolf bitch Lejdy (Canis Lupus Lupus). Out of this mating, Kazan (F1) z Pohranièní stráze was born on 26 april 1983. This Kazan was directly used into the breed and mated three times with three different Csw bitches (see pedigree). As far as I know the number of GSD used, is less than 42, about 30 even maybe less, but several GSD were used more than once for the matings. A list exists of gsd used for the breed, somewhere on the forum. I'll try to find it for you.

Regards
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Old 05-06-2009, 09:03   #3
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Yes Mikael, look at history of forum, there it will be......
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Old 06-06-2009, 02:57   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael View Post
Is 42 GSD the correct number ???
I don't remember when (last year?) or the headline text but in a thread on this forum the development of the breed was discussed. In that thread more than 50 GSDs were numbered when creating the breed, among these DDR Winner (1962 og 1963) Condor vom Falkenwappen, Condor Mardenpfahl, Greif vom Felsenstein and Alex Rudingen.
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Old 07-06-2009, 02:06   #5
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Thanks for your answers

And it was so nice to find out in PM that there is a translation on Karel Hartl´s book in English on the way, probably already this year...

Thanks a loot for that and good work to you

Very best regards / Mikael
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Last edited by Mikael; 07-06-2009 at 02:08.
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Old 08-06-2009, 03:45   #6
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Maybe it will help you...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Margo
Statistisc? - I love it....

There were 48 GSD (maybe more were crossed but I counted only dogs which can be found in the pedigrees of your dogs).
Between them such famous GSD as DDR Winners Condor vom Falkenwappen(1962 & 1963), Condor Marderpfahl, Greif vom Felsenstein and some more. You can find also many like Alex Rudingen where almost all dogs in his pedigrees passed the SchH3 exams (not only males ).

Anyway in our database you can find only first generations of the GSDs (we decided not to include all GSD till to the beginning of history of this breed but only the specific dog and his/her parents.....)
Here the topic
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Old 08-06-2009, 23:51   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nebulosa View Post
Maybe it will help you...
Here the topic
Thanks Nebulosa

Best regards / Mikael
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Old 09-06-2009, 02:41   #8
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Because in several cases, also the parents of the german shepherds are mentioned in the pedigree and sometimes even the grand parents, it means not all 48 gsd are used. As far as i could find out, according to the pedigree, 22 pure gsd (males & females) were used in the direct matings with the wolves and their offspring the F1's-F5's. As said because also the parents (and some times even the grand parents) of these dogs are mentioned in the pedigree, the impression exists that about 40 or more GDS were used and this is not correct.

Below a list of the pure GSD's, directly mated with wolves and F1-F4's. I suppose this is the list you asked for. A while ago I started putting these data out of the pedigree in excel, by going to the start of the CsW lines. The red marked is the name of the GSD(in alphabetical order), the white the wolf or F1-F4 the GSD mated with:

Achmed von Haus Berlin mated with Kaèa z Pohranièní strá¾e (F3)
Ajax vom alten Pleen mated with Ura z SNB CS (F1)
Alma Soleg CS mated with Xavan z Pohranièní strá¾e
Amor z dvora Ker-Pal CS mated with Eida z Pohranièní strá¾e
Ardo Bropa mated with Osa z Pohranièní strá¾e (F2)
Arno z Pohranièní strá¾e mated with Tila z Pohranièní strá¾e (F2)
Asta z SNB mated with Argo (wolf)
Bojar vom Schotterhof mated with Lejdy (wolf)
Cézar z Bøezového háje mated with Brita (wolf)
Chera z Pohranièní strá¾e mated with Ink z SNB CS (F2)
Chido z Pohranièní strá¾e mated with Pluta z Pohranièní strá¾e (F3)
Coural Bropa mated with Capka z Pohranièní strá¾e (F3)
Drago z Pohranièní strá¾e mated with Aneta z Pohranièní strá¾e (F4)
Eros z Ivánky pri Dunaji mated with Santa z Pohranièní strá¾e (F2)
Gotz vom Felsenstein mated with Dura z Pohranièní strá¾e (F5)
Hasso zo ©amorína mated with Berta z Pohranièní strá¾e (F1)
Kurt z Václavky mated with Brita (wolf)
Merz z Rovenalu mated with Kaèa z Pohranièní strá¾e (F3)
Nina z Pohranièní strá¾e mated with Bikar z Pohranièní strá¾e (F1)
Onda z Pohranièní strá¾e mated with Bikar z Pohranièní strá¾e (F1)
Savan z Pohranièní strá¾e mated with Osa z Pohranièní strá¾e (F2)
Xita z Pohranièní strá¾e mated with Bikar z Pohranièní strá¾e (F1)

If some one is interested also in the matings of the wolves (in alphabetical order):

Argo (wolf) mated with Asta z SNB
Brita (wolf) mated with Kurt z Václavky
Brita (wolf) mated with Cézar z Bøezového háje
Lejdy (wolf) mated with Bojar vom Schotterhof
sarik (wolf) mated with Xela z Pohranièní strá¾e (F3)
sarik (wolf) mated with Urta z Pohranièní strá¾e

the wolves Brita, Argo and Ljedy were crossed with pure GSD. Brita mated twice with two different GSD. The wolf Sarik didn't mate with a GSD, but mated twice. First time with an F3: Xela z Pohranièní strá¾e (F3) , second time with Urta z Pohranièní strá¾e (a CsW) . According to this, 6 wolf matings took place

If these schemes should be incorrect or should'nt be complete, please reply to this post.

Regards
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Old 09-06-2009, 21:48   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buidelwolf View Post
Below a list of the pure GSD's, directly mated with wolves and F1-F4's. I suppose this is the list you asked for.
Yes it is

THANKS VERY MUCH

Very best regards / Mikael
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Old 12-06-2009, 01:28   #10
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Hello Mikael,

I had to revise my previous scheme, it was not completed. Indeed 48 crossings with (pure) GSD were involved with 41 different GSD (> some mated twice or three times). I think Margo meant that with the number 48. Yesterday I went searching for the missing dogs in the pedigree and also used the CSV Statistic software "Elf" made available.

Below a revised scheme in alphabetical order. The first column are the GSD, the second the wolves and F1's-F5's they mated with. In green marked are the matings which went on with offsprings which we have today, in red marked the crossings which didn't go on but "died out. Some GSD's are mentioned more than once because they mated 2 or three times.



Achmed von Haus Berlin × Alka z Pohranièní strá¾e (F3)
Achmed von Haus Berlin × Kaèa z Pohranièní strá¾e (F3)
Ajax vom alten Pleen × Ura z SNB CS (F1)
Aldo von der Pappelgarten × Duna z Pohranièní strá¾e (F3)
Aldo von der Pappelgarten × Asta z Pohranièní strá¾e (F3)
Aldo von der Pappelgarten × Meky z Libìjovického zámku (F3)
Alex von Rudingen × Barka z Pohranièní strá¾e (F2)
Alma Soleg CS × Xavan z Pohranièní strá¾e
Alma z Pohranièní strá¾e × Odin z Pohranièní strá¾e (F2)
Amor z dvora Ker-Pal CS × Eida z Pohranièní strá¾e
Anka z Pohranièní strá¾e × Odin z Pohranièní strá¾e (F2)
Ardo Bropa × Osa z Pohranièní strá¾e (F2)
Arno z Pohranièní strá¾e × Tila z Pohranièní strá¾e (F2)
Arno z Pohranièní strá¾e × Cela z Pohranièní strá¾e (F2)
Arno z Pohranièní strá¾e × Santa z Pohranièní strá¾e (F2)
Asta z SNB × Argo (wolf)
Bojar vom Schotterhof × Lejdy (wolf)
Boris z Pohranièní strá¾e × Alena z Pohranièní strá¾e (F3)
Brex z Dìèínských skal × Aga z Pohranièní strá¾e (F3)
Brex z Dìèínských skal × Asta z Pohranièní strá¾e (F3
Cetka z Pohranièní strá¾e × Old z Pohranièní strá¾e (F2)
Cézar z Bøezového háje × Brita (wolf)
Chera z Pohranièní strá¾e × Ink z SNB CS (F2)
Chido z Pohranièní strá¾e × Pluta z Pohranièní strá¾e (F3)
Cora vom Berg Karin × Argo z Pohranièní strá¾e (F4)
Coural Bropa × Capka z Pohranièní strá¾e (F3)
Drago z Pohranièní strá¾e × Aneta z Pohranièní strá¾e (F4)
Erle vom Devener Holz × Odin z Pohranièní strá¾e (F2)
Eros z Ivánky pri Dunaji × Santa z Pohranièní strá¾e (F2)
Etna z Dvojife × Old z Pohranièní strá¾e (F2)
Fila z Pohranièní strá¾e × femaleOld z Pohranièní strá¾e (F2)
Filka z Pohranièní strá¾e × Old z Pohranièní strá¾e (F2)
Gotz vom Felsenstein × Dura z Pohranièní strá¾e (F5)
Gotz vom Felsenstein × Lady z Pohranièní strá¾e (F3)
Hasso zo ©amorína × Berta z Pohranièní strá¾e (F1)
Iva z Pohranièní strá¾e × Old z Pohranièní strá¾e (F2)
Kurt z Václavky × Brita (wolf)
Merz z Rovenalu × Kaèa z Pohranièní strá¾e (F3)
Nina z Pohranièní strá¾e × Bikar z Pohranièní strá¾e (F1)
Odor z Pohranièní strá¾e × Odra z Pohranièní strá¾e (F3)
Onda z Pohranièní strá¾e × femaleBikar z Pohranièní strá¾e (F1)
Orest ze Zimova × Bety z Pohranièní strá¾e (F1)
Savan z Pohranièní strá¾e × Osa z Pohranièní strá¾e (F2)
Xita z Pohranièní strá¾e × Bikar z Pohranièní strá¾e (F1)
York z Hoøej¹ího dvora × Cita z Pohranièní strá¾e (F2)
Zar vom Delitzer Berg × Taòa z Pohranièní strá¾e (F4)
Zur vom Delitzer Berg × Meky z Libìjovického zámku (F3)
Unkas z Pohranièní strá¾e × Odra z Pohranièní strá¾e (F3)
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Old 12-06-2009, 10:48   #11
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Great
Thanks.
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Old 12-06-2009, 16:46   #12
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Thanks again Buidelwolf

As I understand the CsV breeds gene pool today is based on 22 pure GSD and 4 wolves (totaly 26 individuals)

Very best regards / Mikael
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Last edited by Mikael; 13-06-2009 at 10:14. Reason: Text error
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Old 12-06-2009, 20:39   #13
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Quote:
As I understand the CsV breeds gean pool today is based on 22 pure GSD and 4 wolves (totaly 26 individuals)
Hi Mikael,

Yes, I suppose so, according to the family tree. Unless in the "early years" some unregistered dogs contributed too. Could be possible of course. Maybe Margo or other experts have additional info?

In itself these numbers should be healthy enough,
certainly in comparison with the Saarloos, of which the gene pool is based upon only two wolves and one or two GSD's. One should also be aware of the fact that many recognised dog breeds of today are based on less ancestors than our breed. However breeders have to remain extra cautious with the choices they make for breeding couples, but that should be evident. Unfortunately, occasionally we still see otherwise.

By the way, I'm not a breeder myself, nor a breeding expert. I just love the matter and like statistics regarding our breed, search things out etc.

Regards
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Old 13-06-2009, 10:11   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buidelwolf View Post
Hi Mikael,

Yes, I suppose so, according to the family tree. Unless in the "early years" some unregistered dogs contributed too. Could be possible of course. Maybe Margo or other experts have additional info?

In itself these numbers should be healthy enough...


Regards
Yes compered to many other breeds this is a high number of dog-individuals for a start of a breed...

But the 4 wolves is probably related and the 22 pure GSD certainly are, therefore the true gene pool is much smaler So I realy did hope it was 42 GSD and not less

Any way it is good info for us all to know, especially breeders

Thanks again, regards / Mikael
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