MISSING credibility of the French pedigrees

[wolfin]

Rona is right - I am lithuanian- north italian temperament. Hanka forgive me please

but now I sit in work and think - see this modules
have situation:
one family X buy a dog from this suspicious dogs breeding and bring this to CZ, to LT or PL or others land. We know this not can be pure CSV when are from this dogs. BUT this have FCI pedigree who say " this animal are pure CSV with a pedigree" family go to show, make HD and .. planed breeding. And now who we have- mixing dogs who get to breed in ours country ( LT CZ -PL or others) he have all documents who say" this are pure animal"
who doing in this case?

[Rona]

Originally Posted by Hanka

Rona, I know a few (in my eyes) good french breeders. So I belive in changes.

OK, so I join you in this belief.

French breeders, please don't disppoint us, we trust you

[Hanka]

I answer you my personal reason. When this dog will be on bonitation, he will have bonitation code. Maybe good. But me (my person) will be first who will want to see his DNA profil. Maybe, other persons (bonitation comission) will want to see the same. And this dog will have breeding licention after giving of DNA to club. His bonitation cart can be in hand of club and wait result of test.
This case was not in past. So- in this moment- I don´t know what type of DNA test we can use. I am not specialist for it. (like for example SAV mixes have gen for red colour).
but belive me, this dog will not be here breeding dog.
But I write my personal meaning. In this moment I don´t write by mouth of my club.
But for future, we can manage possibilities for this case.
But I belive, here are not people who will buy puppy from this or similar breeding.
it is good question, what you can write to my club- if you want. and you will have official answer.

[GalomyOak]

Originally Posted by Hanka

I answer you my personal reason. When this dog will be on bonitation, he will have bonitation code. Maybe good. But me (my person) will be first who will want to see his DNA profil. Maybe, other persons (bonitation comission) will want to see the same. And this dog will have breeding licention after giving of DNA to club. His bonitation cart can be in hand of club and wait result of test.
This case was not in past. So- in this moment- I don´t know what type of DNA test we can use. I am not specialist for it. (like for example SAV mixes have gen for red colour).

I don't know if it is any help, but here is the scheme and program for AKC DNA testing (using a saliva swab, which doesn't need any special preservation to send in mail).
http://www.akc.org/dna/


Tests can be done in several ways:

1. Voluntary owner submission (mandatory if the dog is imported from another country, AI, multiple sires, frequently used sires, etc.)
http://www.akc.org/dna/certify.cfm

2. Compliance audit program (done with/at cost of AKC). These are random kennel checks, which match DNA against pedigrees. There is a system of penalties for kennels that fail compliance, including fines and suspension:
http://www.akc.org/dna/compliance_audit.cfm

3. There is also a system for complaints of individuals or clubs. If someone makes a complaint, they must place a US$500 deposit (a big fee, but not impossible - about 1-2 weeks salary). If the suspicions are true, they get their money back, and the breeder must pay all costs for DNA tests, fines, etc. If they are false, the person making a complaint does not get their money back (to prevent witch hunts).
http://www.akc.org/dna/complaint_policy.cfm

These tests cost $35 per individual dog. Submissions can be made from overseas. These tests do not show purebred/not purebred or any health info - they only make traceable sequences which can be matched to ancestors, relatives and offspring. The AKC will work with clubs to do reduced fee testing for breed shows - $30 per individual dog, I think. Many times, clubs will also offer to pick up part of the bill, to make the cost only $20 for the owner. All tests are submitted to a large, permanent database. If it would be any help, for any breed club, I am happy to see how the AKC can help our breed in Europe - simply send me a PM. But hopefully the FCI or Laboklin offers a similar program?

[Hanka]

Hi Marcy, thanks for info.So exist more possibilities. Here are some DNA laboratory too, so if we will need some this test, we will ask here too. But in this moment it is not (Thanks God) actuel.

[GalomyOak]

No problem, Hanka. I guess, we don't see it (though I am sure it is in some breeds or instances) as a problem - but rather being proactive, so we don't find ourselves in a big mess in the future, if maybe some club rules change, bad officers or judges come in, etc. Meaning - it's easier to have accurate DNA results for the future if we have more DNA results now, especially on older dogs who may not be here if a problem arises, dogs who have many litters, with maybe some puppies that are sold, and get "lost" - with dogs "related to them" (or not) years down the road. People living in the Czech Rep. and Slovakia are lucky - you have very easy access to some of the aging "legends" of our breed (and their offspring), and also some of the tighter breeding controls within your clubs for our beloved breed. You really have an opportunity - not a problem - to grow gold from an ugly seed - to lead our breed in making sure we have integrity and purity for many generations to come. I feel certain other country clubs will follow if someone is willing to lead (unless they have something to hide, I guess) - the US for sure!

[Hanka]

I hope YOU will be leader of US breeding! Or not?

[GalomyOak]

Originally Posted by Hanka

I hope YOU will be leader of US breeding! Or not?

That's a different topic. But...for my lifetime I hope to influence breeding in the US in every positive way I can. Truth is though...it is the "land of the free". I have no authority to say what dog can breed to what dog, as long as they both have registrations saying they are CSVs from any FCI country (or American born litter). Untypical dogs, mixed dogs with FCI registration, violently aggressive dogs, shy dogs, unhealthy dogs - any with a registration. No questions asked. No parent breed club has been able to change this national rule...AKC wants to make money from every registration it can. AKC even has a rule saying you don't even need the pedigree - only the spoken names of the two parents for an imported dog (to account for native dogs, of say, places like Africa where breed may only be defined by "type" rather than pedigree). After 3 generations, puppies from these breedings receive full registration. Can you imagine how angry you would be if in the future, some AWD breeder in the US, despite our protest, managed to lie and say "Oh, here is a puppy from Ali Reolup and...". And this dog went on to have puppies all bearing precious Ali's name? Maybe even sending puppies back to Europe in the future? It's a dangerous, yet preventable, problem.

Breed clubs do have some influence to ask AKC to close the stud book, hopefully ending this practice, which we will do for sure. But to have DNA to fall back on if a problem did arise would be...priceless.

[Hanka]

Hi hi, Marcy, maybe better is don´t write me about situation in US. I will sleep better.

[GalomyOak]

It's ugly...and scary, for sure.

My point is though...the CSV is an internationally loved breed now, due in a very large part to the hard work in breed perservation, promotion and advancement from the original founding countries. No country, or honest individual wants to be responsible for ruining it. But some things are beyond the control of breed clubs or individuals maybe (I don't know how it is in France, or Italy). The help of DNA - from as many dogs as possible - is very helpful to solve some problems. I wish...we could all work together. With diplomacy.

[wolfin]

Originally Posted by Hanka

I answer you my personal reason. When this dog will be on bonitation, he will have bonitation code. Maybe good. But me (my person) will be first who will want to see his DNA profil. Maybe, other persons (bonitation comission) will want to see the same. And this dog will have breeding licention after giving of DNA to club. His bonitation cart can be in hand of club and wait result of test.
This case was not in past. So- in this moment- I don´t know what type of DNA test we can use. I am not specialist for it. (like for example SAV mixes have gen for red colour).
but belive me, this dog will not be here breeding dog.
But I write my personal meaning. In this moment I don´t write by mouth of my club.
But for future, we can manage possibilities for this case.
But I belive, here are not people who will buy puppy from this or similar breeding.
it is good question, what you can write to my club- if you want. and you will have official answer.

yes exactly. but for this mas be and special regulamin, if owner example say- i not want make DNA, you are jelous and stupid for my super nice dog.
and next- ir this are F1 generation animal we can easer see are his pure or not ( when have a falsh pedigree) can check parents in paper and this anmial - are ok or not DNA. but if this are F2-F3 ( this are too now) his DNA from parents say - yes this "are mama and papa", but not say - yes "his grandpa are falsh". I think Daniela has writen very good dyplom work about this- CSV breeds genome - in who we have a first material for purity test ( when CSV are "purest" breed like a Sarlos in genome.
GalomyOak, yes if we begin make this we have moore and moore info about ours breeds DNA and easer make a markers from line and family.

[wolfin]

Originally Posted by Hanka

Hi Marcy, thanks for info.So exist more possibilities. Here are some DNA laboratory too, so if we will need some this test, we will ask here too. But in this moment it is not (Thanks God) actuel.

but he is actuel maybe today not to CZ or LT people but for others dogs. Like I say if dog have mixing in generation back - paternity test not help ( mama x papa).

[Lorry - MLS]

Originally Posted by GalomyOak

These tests cost $35 per individual dog. Submissions can be made from overseas. These tests do not show purebred/not purebred or any health info - they only make traceable sequences which can be matched to ancestors, relatives and offspring. The AKC will work with clubs to do reduced fee testing for breed shows - $30 per individual dog, I think. Many times, clubs will also offer to pick up part of the bill, to make the cost only $20 for the owner. All tests are submitted to a large, permanent database. If it would be any help, for any breed club, I am happy to see how the AKC can help our breed in Europe - simply send me a PM. But hopefully the FCI or Laboklin offers a similar program?

Je voudrai ête sûre de bien avoir compris le sens réel de votre phrase....
Alors je vais prendre un exemple

Est ce que ce type de test peut définir par exemple que
Rambo et Sibir ont le même père ?
ou que
Rambo et Thalia ont la même mère ?

C'est en tout cas ce que je crois pouvoir comprendre quand je traduits cette phrase :
ils ne font que des séquences de traçabilité qui peut être adaptée aux ancêtres, parents et progéniture

Si c'est bien ainsi qu'il faut comprendre le sens de votre information, je suis prête à avoir recours à ce test supplémentaire....
Pouvez vous me confirmer que j'ai bien compris le sens de votre phrase ?

[Lorry - MLS]

Originally Posted by wolfin

example Galiba blood- who make in this case- or this is old problem,- and breed with this dogs today without problem?

Old Problem ?????
Que dois je comprendre ? Merci d'être plus précise dans vos affirmations ....

[wolfin]

Originally Posted by Hanka

Yes, I read here much about Galiba. But I ask you again: what is his problem? (Easy question)

easy antswer- when you forgot who read http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthr...t=18520&page=4

Here are some DNA laboratory too, so if we will need some this test, we will ask here too. But in this moment it is not (Thanks God) actuel.

who know, who know - you not interesing who are in reality? if now speak about testing and posibility this make and WHEN are suspicious dogs ... run away from this posibility bad genetic in this dogs pedigree.

not be angry for this I only read forum and make conclusion

[wolfin]

Originally Posted by Lorry - MLS

Old Problem ?????
Que dois je comprendre ? Merci d'être plus précise dans vos affirmations ....

"old problem" this about who better not speak and hope all forgot this.

[Lorry - MLS]

Originally Posted by wolfin

"old problem" this about who better not speak and hope all forgot this.

I do not understand the meaning of your response fuzzy

To me "old problem" means a problem that is already old (in time) and which has already been learned in the past ....

I am wondering what "old problem" you speak Galiba citing especially the blood of Galiba .....
???

[wolfin]

Originally Posted by Lorry - MLS

I do not understand the meaning of your response fuzzy

To me "old problem" means a problem that is already old (in time) and which has already been learned in the past ....

I am wondering what "old problem" you speak Galiba citing especially the blood of Galiba .....
???

I explain this in privat - I used translating from lithuanian. Now I think you understand- this are like description situation

[*Satu]

DNA testing is highly accurate without the parents. Every DM Dwarfism and dog have tested the DNA in the laboratory (They keep all the DNA about 10years)

[draggar]

Originally Posted by GalomyOak

AKC wants to make money from every registration it can.

AKC has never done anything to prove that, I mean just look at how ethical this promotion is from a few years ago:



Yes, you reister 10 litters you get the 11th for $1, come on now! They're practically giving away registrations, this proves it's not about the money! Just whelp 10 litters after October 1, 2009 and before the program ended on june 30th, 2010 then you're all set!

.. and tis, a FREE Health Clinic!



AKC and the Hunte Corporation aren't doing this for money either! Hunt openly claims that they spend over $160,000 modifying "trucks and trailers" for dog transportation! He also had a special incinerator engineered for his facility!

It's not about the money!

(note: there is a little bit of sarcasm in this post).

The issue is that the larger they get, the greedier they get. Doesn't FCI reciprocate with AKC so if a dog is AKC registered it can get FCI registered? That's VERY scary. We could have registered our collie as a terveurn - maybe we'll register our cat next.

Its up to the breed clubs to teach the public about the dogs and tresponsible breeding, training, and ownership.