Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs-Australia

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

He could easily avoid the problem if he would have informed himself. Even if he wouldn´t have come to know that Raven Spirit are mixes with White Shepherds, he would have get the information - and without much bothering - that they don´t have any official FCI pedigrees. There are several breeders in Germany and two clubs and the VDH you can ask. These puppies are NOT Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs and therefor useless for the breed in Australia.

Apart from this: This is an open forum, the title of this thread is Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs - Australia, not "Wolves´ accepted updates only" there is no off topic here.

As always I have to agree with Sona, Australia is not ready yet.

Ina

Please provide the proof for this, as I looked up Ravens Spirit and found no results. So link me up to where you got this information from.

Secondly, ignore the title. Read my first post, it was asking for UPDATES OF CZECHOSLOVAKIAN WOLFDOGS IN AUSTRALIA, not to have people's negative comments about possible Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs that are in Australia. "Australia is not ready yet" How is Australia not ready? You can't just say that 22 million people that you don't know aren't ready to own a dog of their choice. Some Australians might not be good owners, others will be amazing owners.

[Ligerwolve2]

Now its not true that we have not tried.

I myself went through all the loops, spoke to all authorities needed and I was stalking a few of the breeders on here This was ...must have been about 10 years ago now. I had $14 500.00 saved and all I really needed was a breeder and to iron out those last few details. Then my husband became very ill. Its unfortunate but everything I had went into taking care of him.

Now Im a single mum of two so although I could care for a dog, be involved with the breed ect I can not afford to import just now. If no one does by the time my kids are older I will try again.

This is not a bad thing. It does not in any way show my lack of love of the breed. I believe if anything it shows that I am very dedicated. Im not rushing in. Im not buying for the looks. Im not some young inexperienced fool hardy backyard person. I care very deeply for this breed.

Just because one person MAY have done something do not paint me with the same stroke. Nor the fact I care enough not to rush into something I cant follow through with - like importing.

Id LOVE a pup. I truely would but hey if I have to wait till I am able to import myself I will.

I have been a member here a very long time (I was originally just Ligerwolve). Quietly reading, learning. I have also been involved in just about every aspect of the dog world in that time. I have even owned a different breed of wolfdog and so has my father.

A few years ago I would have probably agreed with you but I think the minds and hearts of people are changing here. Perhaps because of the people you disregard have been championing this breed and educating others.

[Ligerwolve2]

Since my last post Ive been thinking. On the flip side.

Id also like to mention to anyone who is thinking $$$ by importing/buying this breed here, be careful.

Not only are there laws from state to state on what needs to be done with puppies, the law is now moving in the direction of breeders being liable. If you do the wrong thing and its proven you will be up for costs.

People need to stop and take breeding very seriously these days.

Breeding is not just throwing two dogs together!

Nor is owning a puppy. Although as breeders we do our best to send puppies home with the right people the buyer needs to stop and seriously think if this is the breed for them.

Someone once said to me you should ask yourself what you can do for the breed/puppy not what they can do for you

[Nebulosa]

Originally Posted by Ligerwolve2

Not only are there laws from state to state on what needs to be done with puppies, the law is now moving in the direction of breeders being liable. If you do the wrong thing and its proven you will be up for costs.

People need to stop and take breeding very seriously these days.

I can assure you that CzW breed does not have a nice experience with this history.
We have breeders breeding mixes and hidding the root of the problem in every possible way for impeach people/owners/other breeders to make the DNA and prove that someone did something wrong.
Years have passed and nothing has been done because of that, people keep poluting the breed with dangerous mixes with fake papers and nothing can be done. It's only you read the old topics about the kennels De La Louve Blanche and Crying Wolf to read a bit of what happened.

[Ligerwolve2]

I was actually just going through the old threads yesterday. Such a shame that people put their own desires above what is best for a breed they pretend to love.

Laws here regarding breeding are becoming stricter and stricter. Actually a few long term breeders are being lost because its so much more difficult to have a litter.

For example I used to breed GSDs. There have been instances where breeders have been held accountable for a pups health. Same with selling "pure" dogs that are infact mixes.

If its found that you knew you were selling mixes but decieved the buyer and sold as pure at a much higher cost you could open yourself up to be sued. Especially if this caused the buyer extra costs that could be linked back to the lie.

Not a guarantee this will happen. The cases so far have been few and far between but this is the direction our country is heading in regards to breeding.

A shame but thats how its going to be.

My biggest fear is that someone will bring mixes here and market them as pure. Dogs with lesser temperaments and health. No health tests. Break the laws by not microchipping ect. Its a new breed. One that some people will react with fear to. This will end no doubt in breed restrictions or banning. This wont just effect this breed but anything that is similar. A few who rush in without thought will make it so no one will be able to enjoy these dogs.

[Ligerwolve2]

If I ever get the chamce to import I know I will be on here reading back through all the old threads and annoying all of you with my questions to make sure I get good examples of the breed.

"Better to start with the best you can" - thats what the breeder of my foundation bitch told me.

[tupacs2legs]

My biggest fear is that someone will bring mixes here and market them as pure. Dogs with lesser temperaments and health. No health tests. Break the laws by not microchipping ect. Its a new breed. One that some people will react with fear to. This will end no doubt in breed restrictions or banning. This wont just effect this breed but anything that is similar. A few who rush in without thought will make it so no one will be able to enjoy these dogs.

Yes my fear here too... Not long off the dwa list and could head back there if things continue the way there seem to be going

[Ligerwolve2]

Just heard that they may change the minimum number of days from 30 to 10 from approved countries! Thats much better for importing. I hope they do.

[enomis52]

"Australia is not ready"

I do believe that this is an unfair statement. Certainly there are people who are not ready here, but I would argue that there are people all over the world (including where CZW's are available) who are "not ready" to own a vlack.

I'm sorry, Sona, that this seems to be your perception here. Obviously this is the attitude you have come across here. But please do not judge the whole country as not ready.

If I had the means and $$ to enable me to import a pair of good quality dogs here I certainly would. As it is, this is a long way from possible for me at this time in my life.

I'm involved in a number of other species forums (reptile, aquaria, feline) and the overwhelming thing I find is that people who are REALLY passionate about the animal/breed they keep are very protective of the breeding and keeping of that animal. And rightly so! But it is not fair to judge a whole country as being unable to make the right decisions for the breed - as mentioned, there seems to be people here and in Europe who are willing to mentor and help breeders here. We certainly must be grateful of that!

The breed is not widely known here. Perhaps once people begin learning of the breed, serious and responsible breeders will emerge who are dedicated preserving the lines developed in Europe.

The rest of us can only hope.

[yukidomari]

I think one at a time is more than enough!

[enomis52]

Originally Posted by yukidomari

I think one at a time is more than enough!

Haha I have no doubt! It would just seem such a waste to only bring one animal over with the costs of import etc

Well the two the we have from Mick are just over 5 months old now and they're great. In my eyes they look the Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs and I believe they are.

I've seen people on this forum say that Ravens Spirit only have ONE pure Czechoslovakian Wolfdog, who they breed to White Shepherds. Well if you know anything about genetics, you would know that their pups wouldn't look anything like Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs if that was the case.

For those who are so adamant that they're not pure, provide some evidence for once. So far no one has provided evidence.

Below are some pics of our 5 month old pups and I'm sure that some of you'll be happy to see that your speculations->(Who knows what characteristics might such a mix carry in his genes?! Pink coat and brown nose of a saarlos? Extreme shyness of a wolfdog hybrid? Maybe deep chest and falling top line of a GSD?") were false.

[Sona_Bognarova]

Good morning, yes, of course it is MY perception, whose else? I am presenting my point of view, as everyone else here. And this view IS based on my experience in Australia and what I can read here. And I used "Australia is not ready" as a figure of speech based on what I can see everyday, what people expect from dogs here and also on that immediate interest in the pups, no matter the origin. I think it is pretty clear that I did not talk in absolute terms. As Ina mentioned, it could have happened that the dogs were imported with the best intention and not knowing the background but after getting the information about the origin being unclear - why breeding? The fact that the pups look like CSW does not mean much. I really don't desire to start quarrels here. I would rather help those who dedicate all the efforts, time and funds to import pure CSWs in Australia and do their best to establish a good breeding base. At present I can't do it myself and I am getting a bit scared to see people shortcutting already (the dogs are here already, ok, questionable origin but there is not proof - let's breed, it's soo easy!). The dog breeders community and environment here in Australia in general looks to me very different to the one in Europe. It is more enclosed, not very welcoming for new people, let alone just fans and viewers, this atmosphere and the distances make new owners more separated. In general, people accept mixes of all kind much easier. And don't get me wrong here, there is nothing wrong with having a cross, any kind, might be the best companion ever. But for introducing a new breed, a good breeding base with reliable origin/background is essential. Establishing a well working community of CSW owners, developing into a breeders club sooner or later is another very important step - a club is not only a bunch of people meeting once in a while to have fun together (although that is one of very positive sides of a club life...), it is first of all the source of help and information, leadership and up the certain level also a warranty that the breed will be presented to public in the best ways - through the breeding selection, education of the new owners, publicity etc. Clubs will deal with and promote the pure individuals only. So what will happen with those where the origin is questionable? What else would they possibly cross with? Experimenting? Good, why not, but if anything goes wrong, it can result in lots of bans of the whole breed/s. CSW are not easy, we all know it (and love them for it!) and the pressure and restrictions are getting worse. Is that what we want to risk? Getting CSW banned before it could get known and popular here? Once again, there is plenty of reliable information about the breed and breeders in Europe and I believe also many breeders who wouldn't hesitate to help Australians who would like to start with CSW the right way. Although it is also competitive field, there are breeders that would even advise you to buy from different breeder, should they see it more suitable for establishing a new breeding base. I strongly recommend to everyone in Australia who is serious about having a CSW to get as much information upfront as possible, be patient and make a wise choice. A good breeder will give you pros as well as cons of the breed, it is good to know what you are going to deal with...:-) Good luck

[Shadowlands]

Great post Sona - and you could be describing the situation in the UK too. Too many people in for making what they can with dogs or questionable lineage/temperament without a care for the furtherment (is that a word??) of the breed...

The fact that the the whole entire littler looks like Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs, can only mean one thing, they're pure. On genetic principals if they were mix bred there would be variation in the litter.

Facts are people have been trying to make out that anyone involved with these particular dogs are irresponsible, because you don't believe they're pure. But no one has provided proof.

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Originally Posted by Wolves

The fact that the the whole entire littler looks like Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs, can only mean one thing, they're pure. On genetic principals if they were mix bred there would be variation in the litter.

Facts are people have been trying to make out that anyone involved with these particular dogs are irresponsible, because you don't believe they're pure. But no one has provided proof.

Sorry but this only shows you know nothing at all about the materia and not very much about genetics and breeds.
Apart of this the two pups show a high variation. Maybe you should go and ask the breeder of Aargon Spirit of the Wolf what she thinks about the matter. I for example have never seen a pup out of this line with a bad mask.
White Shepherds don´t have the silly back of the normal ones, they are mostly lighter build, they are not supposed to have pink noses and where should the shyness come from crossing a shepherd with a CSV?
If a breeder only has one purebred dog but doesn´t use a dog from outside how is it gonna happen he can produce purebreds??
If the parents are purebreds which kennelclub signed the pedigrees?
And how do they look like? Which organisations have done the HD- and eyes-check on the parents of your couple? When did the parents of your couple get the official ok for breeding.
Sona is so very right.

Ina

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

Sorry but this only shows you know nothing at all about the materia and not very much about genetics and breeds.
Apart of this the two pups show a high variation. Maybe you should go and ask the breeder of Aargon Spirit of the Wolf what she thinks about the matter. I for example have never seen a pup out of this line with a bad mask.
White Shepherds don´t have the silly back of the normal ones, they are mostly lighter build, they are not supposed to have pink noses and where should the shyness come from crossing a shepherd with a CSV?
If a breeder only has one purebred dog but doesn´t use a dog from outside how is it gonna happen he can produce purebreds??
If the parents are purebreds which kennelclub signed the pedigrees?
And how do they look like? Which organisations have done the HD- and eyes-check on the parents of your couple? When did the parents of your couple get the official ok for breeding.
Sona is so very right.

Ina

What are your qualifications in genetics?

"Apart from this the two pups show a high variation" type "Czechoslovakian Wolfdog" into google and you will see Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs with high variation as well, but like my male and female pups you can identify them as Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs. The variation I was referring to is in mixed breed pups, some pups will lean towards Czechoslovakian Wolfdog, other pups will lean towards White Shepherds (or what ever they're mixed with).

"White Shepherds don´t have the silly back of the normal ones, they are mostly lighter build, they are not supposed to have pink noses and where should the shyness come from crossing a shepherd with a CSV?" Can't you see I put that statement in quotes?! I was quoting what someone else said my pups could possibly have, so tell that to them. Read the thread.

"If a breeder only has one purebred dog but doesn´t use a dog from outside how is it gonna happen he can produce purebreds??" Have you even seen the pedigree? because if you have, you would know that their lineage isn't all Ravens Spirit.

Just because a dog isn't registered with a particular organisation does not mean the dog isn't pure. Rest assured our dogs have been health checked, and don't exhibit HD or eye problems.

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Originally Posted by Wolves

What are your qualifications in genetics? .

I passed the last exams for veterinary surgeon 1998 and work in small animals ever since. This exam includes animal breeding with of course genetics. To get there I had to get degrees in Zoology and Biochemistry.
I own wolfdogs since 1997, breed them since 2000, have a FCI/VDH kennel called Zlata Palz, have visited the countries of origin inclusiv the club shows, bonitations and summer camps since 1998. I have assisted on several Bonitations, have organized several Club shows, am one of the founders of the first German Club and at the moment one of the heads.

Sona by the way has studied Biology, been involved in the breeding since decades and is a specialized judge for Bonitations and Shows of the Slowakian Club for CSV.

Originally Posted by Wolves

"Apart from this the two pups show a high variation" type "Czechoslovakian Wolfdog" into google and you will see Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs with high variation as well, but like my male and female pups you can identify them as Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs. The variation I was referring to is in mixed breed pups, some pups will lean towards Czechoslovakian Wolfdog, other pups will lean towards White Shepherds (or what ever they're mixed with). .

If you mix a part CSV with a pure CSV it is not very likely you will find White Shepherd like dogs in the first generations, especially as dark color normally is dominant and the exterieur is so very close. Also the White Shepherds have their origin in the normal German Shepherd. And I don´´t need to google them as I know several hundreds in life.

Originally Posted by Wolves

"If a breeder only has one purebred dog but doesn´t use a dog from outside how is it gonna happen he can produce purebreds??" Have you even seen the pedigree? because if you have, you would know that their lineage isn't all Ravens Spirit.

Just because a dog isn't registered with a particular organisation does not mean the dog isn't pure. Rest assured our dogs have been health checked, and don't exhibit HD or eye problems.

I know their lineage isn´t all Ravens Spirit. In Germany breeding without pedigree on purpose is a reliable sign for people that don´t want to undergo the controles of the German Kennel Club and follow the rules and there are quite a lot, like controles of HD and inherited eye disease and home and knowlege of the breeder.
The German kennel club also would have asked for proofe of the parentage in this case at it is well known in Germany that they cannot be pure.
But this is goona be a little bit silly, breeding is something very different to what Ravens Spirit or you are doing.

Ina

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

I passed the last exams for veterinary surgeon 1998 and work in small animals ever since. This exam includes animal breeding with of course genetics. To get there I had to get degrees in Zoology and Biochemistry.
I own wolfdogs since 1997, breed them since 2000, have a FCI/VDH kennel called Zlata Palz, have visited the countries of origin inclusiv the club shows, bonitations and summer camps since 1998. I have assisted on several Bonitations, have organized several Club shows, am one of the founders of the first German Club and at the moment one of the heads.

Sona by the way has studied Biology, been involved in the breeding since decades and is a specialized judge for Bonitations and Shows of the Slowakian Club for CSV.

If you mix a part CSV with a pure CSV it is not very likely you will find White Shepherd like dogs in the first generations, especially as dark color normally is dominant and the exterieur is so very close. Also the White Shepherds have their origin in the normal German Shepherd. And I don´´t need to google them as I know several hundreds in life.


I know their lineage isn´t all Ravens Spirit. In Germany breeding without pedigree on purpose is a reliable sign for people that don´t want to undergo the controles of the German Kennel Club and follow the rules and there are quite a lot, like controles of HD and inherited eye disease and home and knowlege of the breeder.
The German kennel club also would have asked for proofe of the parentage in this case at it is well known in Germany that they cannot be pure.
But this is goona be a little bit silly, breeding is something very different to what Ravens Spirit or you are doing.

Ina

Ok, we'll let's see. One, my generation of pups is at least f3, so you clearly haven't even being reading the thread. So given they're f3, if there was white shepherd in them, you would definitely be seeing that in some of the litter.

Another thing, look at eyes for example. Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs eyes range from amber to brown. White Shepherds have brown eyes. Brown eyes are dominant. Therefore how can you get multiple pups in the f3 generation showing amber eyes, when both the f2 generation had brown eyes? All it means is the f2 must of being carrying amber eyes, from the Czechoslovakian Wolfdog. If there was a white shepherd in there, it would be highly unlikely that you would get amber eyed pups, given brown is dominant and amber only comes from the Czechoslovakian Wolfdog.

Well given you've seen hundreds of Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs, surely you'd understand that there is a large amount of variation in them. My two do not have all that much, apart from being different genders of course.

They do have a pedigree, so what do you mean by "breeding without pedigree on purpose?"

"breeding is something very different to what Ravens Spirit or you are doing." Ignorance again, I'm not breeding I've made it very clear. My two pups are desexed. Read before you make these statements. Secondly, so you're an expert on Ravens Spirit? Mind sending me some pictures of the White Shepherd mixes you say they use for breeding?

[yukidomari]

Originally Posted by Wolves

Just because a dog isn't registered with a particular organisation does not mean the dog isn't pure. Rest assured our dogs have been health checked, and don't exhibit HD or eye problems.

no, it doesn't mean that they aren't pure, but it means they shouldn't have been bred without slovak club approval... and 5 month old puppies normally don't show any congenital health problems anyway.

I'm curious as to why you disagree with the owners of your puppies' parents, who in a previous post believes the male is a mix? Or does she no longer think that?