Go Back   Wolfdog.org forum > English > Wolves and wolfdogs

Wolves and wolfdogs All about animals similar to CzW... Information about other Wolfdogs: Saarloos Wolfhound, Lupo Italiano...

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-01-2011, 09:39   #21
michaelundinaeichhorn
Senior Member
 
michaelundinaeichhorn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Bad Dürkheim
Posts: 2,249
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunas Mom View Post
nor would I collect a wolf into my environment without properly preparing for the best, most enriched, life able to be provided.
The problem stays the same: One wolf, what life would be able to be provided. I don´t expect land in Florida and even more important fences much cheaper than in Germany. The costs for the wolf enclosure here have been around 200 000 $, as far as I remember only the fence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunas Mom View Post
My desire to keep, interact with and study a real wolf in a captive environment is to try to see how and where the wild behaviors were either suppressed or exploited due to human intervention. I am not interested in keeping an animal for my own personal pleasure, but more for personal study - the desire to see what the "base" animal of our domesticated dog is really like - that's why I am NOT interested in any hybrid. I want to see the intelligence, reasoning capabilty, natural aptitudes really are in our dogs' ancestor.
.
But this research has already been done in the past and is going on at the moment. In your country one of the names is Ray Coppinger, though he is more in dogs but they do this studies at his institute and they also did those studies on Coyotes.
So if you want to do all this again with one wolf it is for your own pleasure and nothing else.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunas Mom View Post
I am glad my comments brought about such discussion - my first step will likely be to volunteer at a wolf refuge at some point, before I decide to actually take on one for myself.
As far as I can oversee the situation this is the best way to go in your country as there are a lot of private raised wolves in refuges or shelters.
Better to study them there or get two of one of those places than buying one from a so called breeder.

And as Sashia already wrote you will still not see the original type of wolf from over at least 15 000 years ago.

Ina
michaelundinaeichhorn jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2011, 23:20   #22
Gypsy Wolf
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Florida & Minnesota U.S.
Posts: 252
Default

Yes, coyotes are not wolves. I was mentioning that I like coyotes and am interested in studying them.
And genetics tell us that today's domestic dogs ARE descended from wolves - they are basically genetically-manipulated, neo-natized Eurasian wolves. In fact, there is no genetic way to distinguish wolves and dogs, which is why their scientific classification is now CANIS LUPUS FAMILIARIS.
Also WRONG that there is "no difference" between a hybrid (any content) and a pure wolf. Because we do not know the EXACT modes of inheritance for genetics, if it has "dog" genetics - however small - it is not necessarily going to be just like a "pure" wolf. I am not interested in dealing with dog genetics when it comes to studying behavior.
And for those interested in furthering their understanding of genetic manipulation... look up the Balyeav fox experiments.... wild foxes raised for their fur and in just a couple of generations where the breeder selected for "tameness" and suddenly they were being born with patchy fur, curled tails and droopy ears - all WILD fox genetics - but nothing like the original foxes trapped in the wild for the experiment. Part of why I want to study the "original" material.
I find it interesting how polarizing this discussion is for people - it shows a passionate love of the species. That is also a large part of why I am interested in studying them. Interesting that I do not see anyone here protesting the other people who study the species... and we have learned a great deal recently from several captive wolf studies (I believe it was a German or Swiss University conducting the behavioral studies) regarding their problem-solving abilities, etc. My interest is in furthering knowledge in just that venue, so that we not only learn more out Canis lupus lupus but also canis lupus familiaris...
Gypsy Wolf jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2011, 23:38   #23
yukidomari
Moderator
 
yukidomari's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Los Angeles CA
Posts: 847
Send a message via Skype™ to yukidomari
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunas Mom View Post
Interesting that I do not see anyone here protesting the other people who study the species... and we have learned a great deal recently from several captive wolf studies (I believe it was a German or Swiss University conducting the behavioral studies) regarding their problem-solving abilities, etc.
The difference is that as a university or other large organization, they theoretically have more resources than a single person does in conducting useful research, both in contacts and financial resources.

And with the backing of a university, discoveries and observations are more acceptable, more able to be useful, believable, and verifiable.. not merely one person's experience and and observations. Unless a person has had a long and storied reputation (say someone like Diane Fossey or Jane Goodall, and even their methodology is contested), personal observation is not likely meaningful to the body of knowledge in general. ..
yukidomari jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2011, 23:39   #24
saschia
Member
 
saschia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Bratislava
Posts: 936
Send a message via Skype™ to saschia
Default

I don't protest projects, because I know that to get a grant for it, you need to prove that the animals will not suffer by your research. Ditto for publishing - no self-respecting opublisher would accept paper where accordance to animal handling practices was not stated. I would oppose any individualistic project that would use wolves from commercial breeders.

And before you start arguing with people that did behavior research on their own wolf packs, than my argument is - 1. it is a pack, not individual wolf, 2. if the wolves were bred (produced) for the purpose then I cannot accept it as correct practice.

I would strongly recommend you to join a shelter or refugee or things like that, you'll have my moral support and a piece of envy too ;o)

Now I am going to study the ontogeny of social behavior in my very own pack of Descendants of Wolves (that's the English translation of my kennel name for those here who don't speak Slovak) ;o) Brown barked at me yesterday and succeeded to howl puppy-style today.
__________________
Saschia
(Sasa Zahradnikova)
http://www.chiens-loup-tchecoslovaqu...ei-et-damon.ws
saschia jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2011, 00:35   #25
Gypsy Wolf
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Florida & Minnesota U.S.
Posts: 252
Default

As I stated in an earlier post, my first step is volunteering at a refuge. I have no desire to get in over my head. Remember, this has been something I have been wanting to do for almost 2 decades...
And the primatologists mentioned (Fossey, et al) who did their ground-breaking research BECAME well-respected AFTER they decided to say "screw it" to the non-believers and just did as they felt right - something that I may do in the future.
It seems those scientific mavericks have brought a lot to the study of Ethology, so who is to say that I could not? Simply because I am not "known" or "funded" right now? And simply because the universities get funding, does NOT mean they are any better - or do anything more humanely - that I would - I have seen it before.
I have followed very talented dog trainers who have specifically learned training through their interaction and understanding of wolf behavior - on a personal level. Bashkim Dibra and his wolf Mariah come to mind. I feel he brought a lot to dog training through his knowledge, and if I were able to do the same, it would be more than woth it. Jeez, it would be more than worth it for me to have that experience, whether I write a book or not...
Just because I am not part of a university (though perhaps I could see if UFL would mind my doing a doctorate on the subject) does not mean I should be barred from learning this way simply because it is less "acceptable" to society?
As I had mentioned before, I am also interested in studying coyote behavior - I am not looking for funding to go and research them in the field - does it make my observing them wrong? Or less acceptable? And to whom? Again, I am not interested in reproducing the results in a lab - Ethologists don't do that, but they trust each other's research - even though most hard-core scientists would consider it anecdotal. Does that make it less valuable?
I read "anecdotal" stuff all the time - one of my favorite books is about Charley the coyote (Shreve Stockton's book The Daily Coyote) as well as Farley Mowat's Never Cry Wolf. Are they "science"? Not really. They are excellent insights into ethological studies of the species - even if they aren't reproducible, they are no doubt vauable to those interested in behavior... who is to say I wouldn't be the next Farley Mowat? We all start somewhere...
Gypsy Wolf jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2011, 00:44   #26
yukidomari
Moderator
 
yukidomari's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Los Angeles CA
Posts: 847
Send a message via Skype™ to yukidomari
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunas Mom View Post
And the primatologists mentioned (Fossey, et al) who did their ground-breaking research BECAME well-respected AFTER they decided to say "screw it" to the non-believers and just did as they felt right - something that I may do in the future.
Fossey and Goodall never attempted to contribute to the captive population of their chosen studies. Their studies were done at national parks or other similar locales and they actively worked to STOP the production of captive gorillas/chimps, not contribute to it. ..their studies was and always has been founded on the principles of observing and protecting them as they are in the wild...

And yes, funding is a huge part of the equation...

Last edited by yukidomari; 04-01-2011 at 00:48.
yukidomari jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2011, 01:25   #27
Gypsy Wolf
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Florida & Minnesota U.S.
Posts: 252
Default

I am not looking to add to the local population either, though one of the things that other ethologists have discussed with me is how my study could positively impact the wild wolf's plight with habitat loss as well as overall health studies.
For istance I did an involved project for my degree about rehabilitating the FL Alligator - part of the study involved behavior of the species (it ended up not to be a successful venue as alligators relocated even thousands of miles away will eventually return to their home ponds) - with wolves, we have a serious issue of inability to adapt to human "pressure" in an environment. And what better way to study this that to study the intimate behavior?
Another thing is nutrition and evnironmental impact on immunity and orthopedics. I don't know of anyone who feeds raw (they tout mimicing natural diet, which, in most cases is not accurate as dogs evolved eating our refuse, not organic, pristine cuts of meat and fresh veggies) who has any studies on how "good" (or bad) joints in the wild population are. They always say "wolves don't get HD" - no - because they die at like 5 years old in the wild... but there are no x-rays backing this up that I have ever seen.
So if the wild wolves are my control group, my own wolf would be the study subject.
Again, my plan is to volunteer first - then perhaps I can convince the refuge and UFL to get involved in a study - maybe I will even find a dog food company to sponsor it, but I would HAVE to start with a "clean slate" at some point. I also would like to have another ethologist or two to help out, as I do not want my observations skewed, but seconded or refuted by others involved in the study.
Perhaps we will find something no one else has uncovered - that's what the purpose is - perhaps wolves, like humans, base mate choice on genetics and scent - or maybe it's courtship behaviors or simply geography - no one knows. And even simple studies like this can often be applied to other mammals...
And who knows, perhaps just this sort of study will help wild wolves...
For instance, Sea World's captive Penguin population were not breeding until some "genius" pointed out that their light phase in the enclosure was NORTHERN and not Southern, and when they changed it, the birds began breeding - all from one scientist who studied penguin breeding and the photoperiod...
This likely will be a plan of the future - not any time soon. In the meantime I am quite happy studying the behavior I see in my vlcak. She is not quite "dog" but not "wolf" either and I have been keeping detailed records on her behavior. Not sure what, if any, purpose this will have in the future, but it satisfies my desire to unravel the mystery of how the dog evolved from the wolf, and certainly adds to my dog-training experience and communication. And maybe someday to a bigger picture.
Gypsy Wolf jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2011, 12:19   #28
michaelundinaeichhorn
Senior Member
 
michaelundinaeichhorn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Bad Dürkheim
Posts: 2,249
Default

Apart from everything else is it a simple fact, that studies on one wolf or one or two dogs are of no value for any scientific approach as they show the behaviour of this one individual and nothing else. Additional this one individual will be extremely influenced by humans what will make the results even more questionable.
So this will not be science but simple personal learning and interest of one or some more persons.

And meaning absolutely no offense but just having your own safety in mind: If the way you walk and move on the herding videos is the normal way you walk and not due to momentary health status, are you not save around adult handraised wolves if you have direct contact and the wolf is socialised very well.
You might be alright with only one individual taking safety precautions but this would also mean you couldn´t interact as free as you intend.
michaelundinaeichhorn jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2011, 14:39   #29
cindy23323
Junior Member
 
cindy23323's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Virginia, U.S.
Posts: 53
Send a message via Yahoo to cindy23323
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hanninadina View Post

Don´t you live in Florida, when I do remember right, Luna´s mom? You are allowed to have wolfdogs F 1 75 % max.

Here are the laws in for the USA: http://www.hybridlaw.com/

Have a nice year

Christian
That site is not up to date Christian, the laws in Flor. changed last year (2010) this is now what the law states for Florida.

"Hybrids resulting
from the cross between wildlife and domestic animal, which are substantially
similar in size, characteristics and behavior so as to be indistinguishable
from the wild animal shall be regulated as wildlife at the higher and more
restricted class of the wild parent."
__________________
Cindy

http://virginiawolves.zoomshare.com
cindy23323 jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2011, 19:08   #30
Gypsy Wolf
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Florida & Minnesota U.S.
Posts: 252
Default

Yes, I live in FL, and as I stated before, I would have to change my living situation in order to accomodate a wolf. If I stayed in FL, I would need a wildlife possession permit, but again, this is something further out in the future.
I disagree completely regarding your opinion that I wouldn't learn anything applicable if only interacting with one wolf. My study parameters are ethological, not traditional laboratory parameters. Many ethologists have made breakthrough studies utilizing interactions with only one or a few members of a species - one that comes to mind instantly is Alex the African Grey parrot and Irene Pepperberg - a bird that she purchased at a pet store and has now changed the idea of learning and cognition - in both birds, and in some cases her studies have been applied to early learning in children. It often takes someone with their own convictions to go ahead and just do it - rather than listen to the naysayers who end up actually benefitting from such maverick studies.
I would urge people unfamiliar with studies such as these to perhaps investigate them before passing judgment on a subject they know nothing about. If it weren't for the Pepperberg, Fossey, et al, studies - people who likely got the same (if not more) flak about their studies than I am on this topic - we would not have their enlightening and groundbreaking knowledge and the world would be a little less bright...
Gypsy Wolf jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2011, 19:14   #31
yukidomari
Moderator
 
yukidomari's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Los Angeles CA
Posts: 847
Send a message via Skype™ to yukidomari
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunas Mom View Post
I would urge people unfamiliar with studies such as these to perhaps investigate them before passing judgment on a subject they know nothing about. If it weren't for the Pepperberg, Fossey, et al, studies - people who likely got the same (if not more) flak about their studies than I am on this topic - we would not have their enlightening and groundbreaking knowledge and the world would be a little less bright...
I am familiar with Pepperberg's work with her African Grey.

It seems that your mind is made up anyway, so it really doesn't make sense to point out huge differences in approach when you try to compare yourself to Fossey or Pepperberg, though..
yukidomari jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2011, 19:34   #32
Gypsy Wolf
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Florida & Minnesota U.S.
Posts: 252
Default

I am no Pepperberg or Fossey, my point is simply that there are people making judgments without understanding ethology studies or the parameters of said study.
It seems much of the judgment is coming from a personal and emotional views - and everyone is welcome to their opinions, of course. Much of the science we rely on today was conducted against popular views... sheesh, if it weren't for maverick scientists, we would likely still be thinking frogs spontaneously erupted out of mud in the spring and that our humors needed to be balance in order to eradicate disease.
My actual intent in starting this thread was to gather information from anyone on this board who had/has experience with pure wolves. I was looking for information on their experiences and interactions with the species - in whatever environment - whether captive or wild, so that I could begin to gather information for my future behavioral studies.
My mind is not made up regarding acquiring a wolf in the future - it may end up being too big a commitment - that remains to be seen...
Gypsy Wolf jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2011, 19:43   #33
saschia
Member
 
saschia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Bratislava
Posts: 936
Send a message via Skype™ to saschia
Default

I don't mean to give you flak as you named it, and actually I know that YOU would benefit hugely from the study of even single wolf, even we might. My concern is about the wolf, if the cost/benefit is worth it. And by cost I mean the difference of the life of that wolf with you versus in a shelter/refugee/whatever else.
__________________
Saschia
(Sasa Zahradnikova)
http://www.chiens-loup-tchecoslovaqu...ei-et-damon.ws
saschia jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2011, 20:01   #34
Gypsy Wolf
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Florida & Minnesota U.S.
Posts: 252
Default

I agree totally about the cost/benefit of the study vs. the quality of life for the wolf. That is one reason I have not gone out and gotten a wolf in the last 18 or so years I have wanted to do so. I want to be 100% sure I can committ totally to the animal and it's needs - for it's entire life.
On a personal level I see no difference between a refuge and any other "captive" situation like a zoo. No, it isn't like being in the wild. On the flipside, as a wildlife rehabber, many higher-intelligence animals, once raised with humans, cannot be successfully released back into the wild, so this animal would have to stay in a captive environment.
As an ethologist, part of my study would be enriching the animal's environment to preserve a happy animal. I do that with all of my own companion animals, too.
Gypsy Wolf jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2011, 20:05   #35
saschia
Member
 
saschia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Bratislava
Posts: 936
Send a message via Skype™ to saschia
Default

Well, I would consider life with a pack more interesting than life with a person, for a wolf at least. But I'll leave the counting of costs/benefits up to you, it will be, after all, your responsibility.
__________________
Saschia
(Sasa Zahradnikova)
http://www.chiens-loup-tchecoslovaqu...ei-et-damon.ws
saschia jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2011, 20:17   #36
michaelundinaeichhorn
Senior Member
 
michaelundinaeichhorn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Bad Dürkheim
Posts: 2,249
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunas Mom View Post

My actual intent in starting this thread was to gather information from anyone on this board who had/has experience with pure wolves. I was looking for information on their experiences and interactions with the species - in whatever environment - whether captive or wild, so that I could begin to gather information for my future behavioral studies.
My mind is not made up regarding acquiring a wolf in the future - it may end up being too big a commitment - that remains to be seen...
As I wrote before do we have experiences with pure wolves and we additional know a lot of those people doing the studies you are interested in personally, some of them became friends. And this too was the reason for our reactions, inclusive the advice considering your own safety. We also know the scientific work of those people and their opinion considering how it should be done correctly. There is also still actual research going on in several places on this matter on captive wolves. None of them is keeping only one and none would see this as necessary or right, seen from ethical points of view. As you can be a proper social partner for a dog but never a proper social partner for a wolf, no matter how good the environment is.

I also did understand your first question as where to get a wolf from and obviously I wasn´t the only one.

Ina

Last edited by michaelundinaeichhorn; 04-01-2011 at 20:21.
michaelundinaeichhorn jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2011, 20:30   #37
buidelwolf
senior member
 
buidelwolf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 163
Default

Happy new year to everybody!

Lunas Mom, I've read all this topic again and I still get a strong feeling that you want to keep a real wolf, purely to fulfill a personal naive dream, legitimized by the artificially-made magic words: “ethologist” and “study purposes”. I find it bizarre that you're referring to a marginal site, where a lot of nonsense and fairytales are sold and where the animals shown, just being mixes. I see no wolf. If you have studied wolves and coyotes, one may expect a greater knowledge. As you may encounter unexpected criticism, the more you emphasize the educational aspect, this under the cloak of a proclaimed status of “ethologist”.

This all reminds me to an old topic: Looking for a nice Male CsV pup to import (roughly translated into: "where can I get a CsV as soon as possible"?), in which you were looking for a CsV as soon as possible for a friend who apparently barely knew the race. Despite various advices to better orient herself and not to act impulsively, the import followed two weeks later! I see similarities regarding the compulsive aspect herein in full. Aside: how's Pollux? Is he still at your girlfriends place or is he now under your care given the fact that you've mentioned it in your "about me section"? I see at your site that he's for sale. Was your girlfriend tired of him so fast?

I'm also very attracted to wolves and the part which is still in our CsV's. I can understand your dream somewhere but you should conclude that it is madness. Luna’s Mom, leave this egocentric idea I would say. It will become a drama and at the end, the animal will be the victim.

Robbert

Last edited by buidelwolf; 05-01-2011 at 16:33.
buidelwolf jest offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 17:39.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
(c) Wolfdog.org