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Old 12-01-2011, 13:10   #1
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Default Health results (also DM!!) in the Wolfdog.org database

The time is approaching when we plan to start building the new database.

We will widen the "Health" part of the database. If you want that your dog's test results will be also listed please send the copies to us ([email protected]).

It apply to everything:

- HD
- ED
- DM
- dwarf
- eyes check
- heart check
- MDR1
- MH
- ....

Not "veryfied" test results will be NOT SHOWED.
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Old 12-01-2011, 13:42   #2
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heart check - what official result must be sent?
and once again about results - verified or not, existing or not: http://www.wolfdog.org/rus/dbase/d10531.html
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Old 12-01-2011, 13:47   #3
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Heart Check will be a problem, has it been done by a specialist, what kind of heart check has been done?
And the same as with eye check, when has it been done? It is useless if it isn´t done on regular terms as every year.
And what do you mean with MH?
And looking a the gene test like DM and Dwarf, all researchers told us not to publish any results because of witch-hunts and lowering of the gene pools. We have tested our dogs but will not publish any result no matter if negativ or positiv, I can send you the certificates but will not agree to publishing them.
And talking about it will you please remove Lorenz Farouks N/N DM result as Sarka has published it without our permission? It is a good example for the problem in itself as she was not as keen on publishing other results that haven´t been that positiv for her kennel I know of.

I am for publishing HD, ED, Eye results and Heart results (when it is with the actual datas and updated in time and not as it works now) but I am against publishing gene tests of diseases that are still under research as my experiences show the advise of the experts has been right.
Maybe it would be better not to publish litters without gene-tested parents after a period that gives the breeders time to test?

Ina

Last edited by michaelundinaeichhorn; 12-01-2011 at 14:44.
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Old 12-01-2011, 15:04   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Admin View Post
It apply to everything:

- HD
- ED
- DM
- dwarf
- eyes check
- heart check
- MDR1
- MH
- ....

Not "veryfied" test results will be NOT SHOWED.
Very interesting thread indeed
Will the DM test results obtained at Daniela's laboratory be treated as varified, or unverified?

Some Polish owners plan to have the samples taken officialy by vets after the chip/tatoo of the dog is checked, and sent to Prague through recognized local vet clinics, just to avoid accussations of cheating.

Personally I don't care if the result od my dog is published or not, but I know some owners/breeders would like to know if they will have to repeat the test if the result is to be published on WD.
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Old 12-01-2011, 15:05   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn View Post
Heart Check will be a problem, has it been done by a specialist, what kind of heart check has been done?
I know there are some veterinary clinics which offer "official" (their own) certificates.

Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn View Post
And the same as with eye check, when has it been done? It is useless if it isn´t done on regular terms as every year.
It is what I forgot to write - it is exactly why we ask for the copies. By the eye examination we will also publish the date when the check was done. By other results we will post name of the veterinarian/clinic/lab who made the evaluation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn View Post
And what do you mean with MH?
Malignant hyperthermia

Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn View Post
And looking a the gene test like DM and Dwarf, all researchers told us not to publish any results because of which hunts and lowering of the gene pools.
Yes, I understand it. Because of it the owners/breeders will be able to choose who will see the results given by them. There are four options planned:
1- the result will be visible to everyone
2- the results will be visible only to registered breeders
3- the results will be visible to "trusted" people
4- the result will be not visible and used only for statistics
(exception is HD/ED - it will be showed to everyone).

About point 3.: I was thinking to give access to people chosen by the official breed clubs (breeding comittee members, a.s.o). They will be able to see more results than even registered breeders (but still the will be not able to see "hidden" results)

Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn View Post
We have tested our dogs but will not publish any result no matter if negativ or positiv, I can send you the certificates but will not agree to publishing them.
It is no problem for me. Every result is important - even if it will stay hidden in the database it will be useful for the breed statistics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn View Post
And talking about it will you please remove Lorenz Farouks N/N DM result as Sarka has published it without our permission? It is a good example for the problem in itself as she was not as keen on publishing other results that haven´t been that positiv for her kennel I know of.
It will be done so. The result will be not published - it will stay hidden.

I understand the whole problem: honest breeders publishing all test results will be always injured in comparison to breeders who publish only good results. Honest people will be always goal of witch hunts while not so serious breeders will hide even the worsest results.
It is while I'm for giving owners/breeders the possibility to hide the results (or show them to chosen groups of people).

Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn View Post
Maybe it would be better not to publish litters without gene-tested parents after a period that gives the breeders time to test?
Yes, it is good idea. We need only a group of "experts" (well informed people) who will be able to prepare reasonable time table: what and till when must be done. It is important to give breeders enough time to make the tests.
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Old 12-01-2011, 15:11   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rona View Post
Very interesting thread indeed
Will the DM test results obtained at Daniela's laboratory be treated as varified, or unverified?
You mean the free of charge project of the Czech Club? If yes than "yes": the results will be also put into the database.
We (as web site) do not "verify" the tests - all test result made by laboratories testing DNA by dogs will be published. But additionally we will also list information who made the test (in this case it will be Czech University).
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Old 12-01-2011, 15:31   #7
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For all genetic tests performed through the OFFA in the US (with the exception of the 15 free tests given by the University of Missouri, and maybe initial sample tests in the future by universities), all normal results are automatically published in an open public database, in an effort to help breeders locate dogs which might be used to correct some of their dog's breeding faults (DM is considered a fault to be considered like other faults that can be corrected through breeding - carrier = fault, affected = stronger fault - http://www.offa.org/dnatesting/dmbreederguide.html). For dogs with N/N (clear) parents, no testing is necessary for puppies, they are considered "clear by parentage" (http://www.offa.org/dna_cbp.html )

I'd love to see Penn-Hip results listed in the database eventually, as this is becoming an ever popular test in the US for hips - when we have 20 CSVs tested, we will have a control sample to make official breeding recommendations from, for the breed. Penn - does not have an online database.

Owners of dogs with abnormal results are given the option to publish their dogs, or not. As a club, I think we will push to have transparency and openness in declaring results to further research, and strengthen our breeding program in the US.

http://offa.org/results.html?num=&re...t=Begin+Search

For the case of all results, the age at test (in months), as well as the date of the test (particularly important for eye exams) is listed next to the result. Maybe this is a solution to address problems of tests with expiration dates? It would also be necessary to have a written passage explaining how to interpret results for new owners/breeders, I think.

Excited for the new database!
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Old 12-01-2011, 15:47   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GalomyOak View Post
For dogs with N/N (clear) parents, no testing is necessary for puppies, they are considered "clear by parentage" (http://www.offa.org/dna_cbp.html )
I see that they are declared as "clear" only if "all three (sire/dam/offspring) have been DNA identity profiled and parentage verified."
We can also make such rule for Wolfdog.org database - even if till now there are no dogs which fulfill such conditions.

BTW. I forgot to write that DNA tests (for example antagene) will be also included in the new database.
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Old 12-01-2011, 15:52   #9
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And what about "only DNA profil" of dog? It will be more and more important, if some "breeders" mix wolfdogs or make falses in pedigries .....
When will be new database ready?
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Old 12-01-2011, 15:54   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Admin View Post
I see that they are declared as "clear" only if "all three (sire/dam/offspring) have been DNA identity profiled and parentage verified."
Yes, it's wonderful they require this (even though it only means the owner performing a cheek swab for AKC at home). It's also a necessary condition to breed imported (FCI registered) dogs, or AI litters.
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Old 12-01-2011, 17:05   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Admin View Post
You mean the free of charge project of the Czech Club? If yes than "yes": the results will be also put into the database.
We (as web site) do not "verify" the tests - all test result made by laboratories testing DNA by dogs will be published. But additionally we will also list information who made the test (in this case it will be Czech University).
Yes, I meant the Czech University tests/results.
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Old 12-01-2011, 17:43   #12
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Will the heart check indicate also which method? (Echocardiogram (EKG)? Holter? etc)

Excited about the new database!
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Old 12-01-2011, 20:35   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn View Post
And looking a the gene test like DM and Dwarf, all researchers told us not to publish any results because of witch-hunts and lowering of the gene pools.

Ina
Professor Gandini, leading expert of DM in Italy, and one of the largest in Europe, is not contrary to the publication of the data.
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Old 12-01-2011, 20:54   #14
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Well one forum-member here already made the experience that he better wouldn´t have published.
And Bern one of the leading Universities in Europe, not only in genetics, did tell us not to publish.

I don´t care that much about dwarfism but we don´t know very much about DM at this moment, it is very likely that the genes are only one factor and they might not be the only genes causing DM. Nobody knows at this moment. To select on that only gene might proof wrong in future. There are breeds with an autosomal recessiv gene for DM, in humans there are several different ways of heritage. If people start to avoid carriers at this moment they might cause worse problems in future.
It is important to test dogs and take care not to mate DM with DM but nobody is at the moment able to give any good breeding advices but the witch hunt already did start. This is not in the interest of the breed.

And as I have made the same experiences Bern did as a veterinary surgeon I will not publish any of our results no matter what it is but will take care with breeding and of course will tell the result to any mating partner or puppy buyer, we don´t keep them secretly but we see them to sensible to be published in an open forum.
As I am involved in building up a DNA-database and getting blood samples for research on an international basis I will surely not give any informations I get to anybody not involved in breeding management or research. This is unthinkable for any serious scientist or medic person. If the owner gives the informations by himself that´s fine for me but he is the only person that has the right to do this.

We made this decision out of very long experience with this kind of datas, I can understand your point of view and shared it in former times but had to learn it only works this way - if at all.

Ina
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Old 12-01-2011, 21:50   #15
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Lightbulb My ide !

DM tested : Yes

or

DM tested : No

DM tested : Free Parants

Can this work better ???

The important thing is to not mate untested dogs right ???
If not to a free one of cuorse...

Very best regards / Mikael
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Old 12-01-2011, 23:06   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Admin View Post
The time is approaching when we plan to start building the new database.

We will widen the "Health" part of the database. If you want that your dog's test results will be also listed please send the copies to us ([email protected]).

It apply to everything:

- HD
- ED
- DM
- dwarf
- eyes check
- heart check
- MDR1
- MH
- ....

Not "veryfied" test results will be NOT SHOWED.
OK, this sonds good

But what is MDR1 and MH ???

To me MH is Mental Health discription

Very best regards / Mikael
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Old 13-01-2011, 00:26   #17
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Great when we can get such a database!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn View Post
And looking a the gene test like DM and Dwarf, all researchers told us not to publish any results because of witch-hunts and lowering of the gene pools.
I don't agree with this. I also did hear other opinions of veterinary professors and genetic specialists.
And for example because of not testing for Dwarfism, not sharing test info, till today dwarfs are born. (and because dwarfism also can cause very small litters, dead born pups, puppy dead in first week, there maybe are a lot more dwarfism genes in the population)
In the past there were also witch-hunts about HD results (and breeders did try to hide results) Now it is more common to share HD info and a lot of puppy buyers even ask breeders for the HD results.
And yes unfortunately there are still some breeders who don't make HD results and are selling "ferry tails" to puppy buyers (CsW is e very natural breed and HD does not exists in this breed)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Admin View Post
There are four options planned:
1- the result will be visible to everyone
2- the results will be visible only to registered breeders
3- the results will be visible to "trusted" people
4- the result will be not visible and used only for statistics
(exception is HD/ED - it will be showed to everyone).

About point 3.: I was thinking to give access to people chosen by the official breed clubs (breeding comittee members, a.s.o). They will be able to see more results than even registered breeders (but still the will be not able to see "hidden" results)
That seems a very good option for the moment. But I hope in future publishing all test results will be as normal as now for HD/ED.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GalomyOak View Post
I'd love to see Penn-Hip results listed in the database eventually, as this is becoming an ever popular test in the US for hips - when we have 20 CSVs tested, we will have a control sample to make official breeding recommendations from, for the breed. Penn - does not have an online database.
Also very good suggestion!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Admin View Post
I see that they are declared as "clear" only if "all three (sire/dam/offspring) have been DNA identity profiled and parentage verified." We can also make such rule for Wolfdog.org database - even if till now there are no dogs which fulfill such conditions..
That would be great!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanka View Post
And what about "only DNA profil" of dog? It will be more and more important, if some "breeders" mix wolfdogs or make falses in pedigries .....
But... there are unfortunately countries (like mine) where owners can send a swab by themselves for DNA to the national breed organization RVBH without any official checking of the dog!

Quote:
Originally Posted by GalomyOak View Post
Owners of dogs with abnormal results are given the option to publish their dogs, or not. As a club, I think we will push to have transparency and openness in declaring results to further research, and strengthen our breeding program in the US.
As Dutch club we also push to have transparency. On this moment we publish test results conform Wolfdog-healthinfo.org (owner can choose: with or without dog name).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael View Post
But what is MDR1 and MH ???
MDR1= Multi Drug Resistance and MH= Maligne Hypothermia
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Old 13-01-2011, 01:22   #18
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About DNA identity profile :

On this moment all profiles conform ISAG 2006 norms are accepted.

But: All dogs who have an official DNA identity that was made before 2007 (by an other ISAG norm) are not validated anylonger!!

The technical aspects around DNA identity are improved last years.
That is why now only ISAG 2006 is exepted.

So it is a pity for all breeders/owners (like me for example ) who did let make an official DNA profile of all their dogs before 2007
These certificates are of no use any longer
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Old 13-01-2011, 01:30   #19
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Originally Posted by mijke View Post
MDR1= Multi Drug Resistance
Well, I can imagine multi-drug resistance in cancer cells and in bacteria, but in dogs???

Malignant hypertermia - is there a valid test? As far as I know, malignant hyperthermia is caused by mutations on RyR1 gene... If it behaves similarly to RyR2 gene, than any testing is quite a lot of work, as there are more than 50 different RyR2 mutations (causing CPVT) in people identified so far, in 3 different regions of the gene, and RyR1 as well as RyR2 are huge genes. Or is it identified by encountering the problem and subsequent muscle biopsy?
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Old 13-01-2011, 01:30   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mijke View Post
About DNA identity profile :

So it is a pity for all breeders/owners (like me for example ) who did let make an official DNA profile of all their dogs before 2007
These certificates are of no use any longer
But way ??? What has change ???

Best regards / Mikael
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