Crying Wolf - kennel

[martiou07]

Originally Posted by jasmine

try to find more...because there are !!!!!!

not, afflicted, there is not

[jasmine]

so, I will tell you a story about HD examinations: one Xray was examined in CzehRep and got HD/C...the same Xray was sent to Poland and got HD/A, the same xray was sent to Slovakia and got HD/A and this xray was sent to my vet and got HD/D!!!!!!After this case no worth to talking about Hd results......

Another things: inbreeding and linebreeding is not the same...and please write me what is your problem with my consaguinity? Have I got ill dogs? Are my pups die very early?Have you got any other defects? More than from other breeders? I think no........and why write that I use always high consaguinity? I couldn't see strong relativities inbetween Geri and Demon or Quenno and Demon, or Ali and Rubin or Argo and Queety and I could continue.......
I breed for my taste,for my fun.....and fortunately there are a lot of people who like my dogs!!!!

[jasmine]

Fortuna Crying Wolf, Wolfy,Wickey,Ushas Crying Wolf ....
and please tell me how many imported dogs are in Slovakia and CzehRep from other countries and are in breeding
it is another usless discussion

[elf]

Thanks this talk start to be informative.

so, I will tell you a story about HD examinations: one Xray was examined in CzehRep and got HD/C...the same Xray was sent to Poland and got HD/A, the same xray was sent to Slovakia and got HD/A and this xray was sent to my vet and got HD/D!!!!!!After this case no worth to talking about Hd results......

You are making several mistakes here.
No let's talk about it. People please share your experiences if you have strong different HD results from different country. I would be very astonished that there is a country very different from another. Another problem is the focus on the letter, does the dog has arthrosis, does the dog show passive laxity, regular bones shape, coverage trouble ? I can assure you that a hip with HD-D really shows troubles visible for almost any vets, so mistery...
Another problem is focuses too much the dog result as the pedigree analysis is very important, breeders argues that this dog is A this one is B, no problem mating them ! But checking the HD of back-relatives and back-back-relative are almost all non HD free, so yes statistically there is a real breeding trouble here. Intrinsic A has not the same value as some other and this should be in the equation. But people are puzzled, because it jumps generations, and it's "only" probability etc... HD probabilistic model just works, so worth making a deep care on that point.

Another things: inbreeding and linebreeding is not the same...and please write me what is your problem with my consaguinity? Have I got ill dogs? Are my pups die very early?Have you got any other defects? More than from other breeders? I think no........and why write that I use always high consaguinity? I couldn't see strong relativities inbetween Geri and Demon or Quenno and Demon, or Ali and Rubin or Argo and Queety and I could continue.......
I breed for my taste,for my fun.....and fortunately there are a lot of people who like my dogs!!!!

COI between 15% and 20% on five generations is a strong consanguinity, especially if we want to have a global politic/view large scale for this breed. Another error breeders make is to check only for 5 generations, but almost any "non consanguinity" mating in this breed is in reality around 20%, and so some of your mating (not high consanguinity for you) are indeed 40%-45% COI ; this means that for all the dog genome (around 22000 genes I guess) it's statistically more than 9000 possibility for an allele to meet its counter part (remembering that 3/4 of genetic disease comes from recessive trait), this is really too high... and really not needed, nowadays we can, and have to, breed differently if we want not dark future days...

[jasmine]

Of course our hd examination is not consist of just the angulation...we have a complete examination form and my ver examined a lot of things such as osition of hip-joins,shape of whirtbone,status of the acetabulum,articular space and last but not least the Norberg measuring. So I think it is complex and complete.
About the dark future: believe me don't think that I would be the biggest enemy of this breed.
And as this kind of discussion hurt not just me but every owner of my dogs I realy want to finish it! I don't think that I have to justify myself....and guys it would be better to deal with your own things!

[martiou07]

I speak to you already about the males having could reproduce as Slovakia and Czech republic .....

after your dogs like, it is very well Mrs Molnar .....

I know well Robin Hood crying Wolf, i already saw Volos, Yanatos ..... they are beautiful dogs, but you still knew to avoid my question

my question :
"all d' access I hold to specify you that j' certain dog coming from your production, for some I saw tell you cheer, some are splendid, of the types very lupoide, for d' others ......... but that is normal, all cannot be perfect, and that I include/understand it
on the other hand what I include/understand less, which you a type whom you had recourse tostrong rate of consanguinity in your first marriage in order to fix like, I include/understand, but why still do have recourse to this selection in your recent marriages??
I see that on some that seems to me much better, you vary a little more on your choices of marriage, but why that :

ex. phaedra /Blue = 15.82.....%
Rubin/Blue = 19.43....%
Flash/Issar = 20.50...%
Galiba/flash = 16.06....%
........ i decree there because there is much of it
thus in come to ask me a question, which is addressed to you as to the other stockbreeders?? Must one hold account of it so much…. my opinion on this question, is that on such a recent race, I find that not careful of the whole, i have can be wrong, but I do not see interest…."

or then, your answer is as simple as that???
my pups like and nothing other????

indeed, us let us have at all the same vision of interest of canine breeding Mrs Molnar

[jasmine]

I don't understand what is your problem exactly????Are the pups from these 4 marriage bad? Ill? Bad HD? Bad caracter?Small???
I strongly must tell you NO!!!!! All of them are healthy and very nice, promote the type what I like!!!!

[martiou07]

why have still recourse to as much consanguinity?????
which is interest now that you did find the type of dog wolf which you seek????
after what I include/understand, finally, one should not take account of consanguinity and we can marry import which dog.....

you understand ?
your opinion with you on consanguinity??

[jasmine]

ahhh I would like to fix the type what I like...and if you see which dogs and which lines I use it is not too hard to quess the dogs/type/lines I would like to fix.And I realy won't write the names.lines here ,because,I'm sorry to say but as I know you (and your "friends") my answer could never be good enough for you.
I'm realy tied of this ....and I realy finish.
Have a nice weeked
Bye for now
Edit

[elf]

Originally Posted by jasmine

Of course our hd examination is not consist of just the angulation...we have a complete examination form and my ver examined a lot of things such as osition of hip-joins,shape of whirtbone,status of the acetabulum,articular space and last but not least the Norberg measuring. So I think it is complex and complete.
About the dark future: believe me don't think that I would be the biggest enemy of this breed.
And as this kind of discussion hurt not just me but every owner of my dogs I realy want to finish it! I don't think that I have to justify myself....and guys it would be better to deal with your own things!

Thanks for the answers you provided in this thread. I won't go any further as I have answers I wanted.

[admin]

Originally Posted by jasmine

so, I will tell you a story about HD examinations: one Xray was examined in CzehRep and got HD/C...the same Xray was sent to Poland and got HD/A, the same xray was sent to Slovakia and got HD/A and this xray was sent to my vet and got HD/D!!!!!!

Which dog? Could you write the name so we can check it?
Thanks in advance!

[hanninadina]

It is nothing new, that the poland HD results are the most best in the world. I know this for 10 years from the briards - french herding dogs -.

Christian

[admin]

Originally Posted by hanninadina

It is nothing new, that the poland HD results are the most best in the world. I know this for 10 years from the briards - french herding dogs -.

I think it depends...
I know that sometimes Dutch CzW breeders sent their results to Germany because they get better results than in Holland (HD-B in Holland and HD-A in Germany). But I know also about REAL dogs (not imagined cases) which were checked in Holland with HD-B and in Poland with HD-C.
I know dogs with hips which were HD-D in Czech Republic and HD-A in Italy (it was for a long time the reason why many dogs with HD-C or worser were sold to Italy).
BUT I know many dogs which were HD-C in Czech Republic and were still HD-C in Poland, which were HD-D in Czech Republic stayed HD-D in Italy...

I Germany you have only one judge which can official evaluate the X-rays so the results are similar. But in Holland, Czech Republic, France, Poland you have more judges which make it and don't be so astonished that there are differences between two countries when you can see VISIBLE differences between vets in one country. In German forum you can fnd some stats Margo made and the difference between two Czech vets were about 30% and between Sterc and some other it can be maybe even 50% (what mean: other vets give 50% more HD-A results that for example Sterc).

I know, every breeder say his country has the best results and the vets make the strongest evaluations. And it is not possible to make any statistics because many data is missing and many data hidden. But all we can do is to look which results have dogs in a country and to compare which results have dogs from the same country in other countries.

Jasmine said Hungary has the best evaluation, hanninadina say Poland has the worstest. So we can compare it:

- in Germany there are three dogs checked for HD from jasmines' kennel. The parents are, according to the Slovakian and Hungarian vet, HD-A and HD-B. Lets see the results of the offsprings imported to Germany.
The BEST results has hanninadina's female Myla. It is HD-B1. The other results which the dogs get are HD-C and HD-D.

- now let's take the dogs living in Germany but imported from Poland. The parents seem to be similar evaluated as in the case first case - according to the Slovakian and Polish vet thay have HD-A and HD-B. Now compare the results of their offsprings made in Germany and evaluated by german vet.
The WORSEST results they get is HD-B1. And all other are HD-A1 and HD-A2.

Conclusion is visible and easy to make:
The HD-evaluations of the parents made in Poland are COMPARABLE to the results of the polish dogs imported to Germany.
BUT
The HD-evaluations of the parents made in Hungary are VISIBLE BETTER than the results of the hungarian dogs imported to Germany.

And we can make the same stats with the same countries (with the same results and conclusion) for Italy and France....


I'm sure the same topic will came back soon and another breeder will say "In my country are the strongest evaluations of the hips" BUT sometimes the stats say something else....

[jasmine]

hmmmm
Margo,
In this case I think it is doesn't matter of the name of the dog/breeder/owner .......and it is a REAL CASE.....

Pzemek,
We both know that I have sent much more HD certification to you than you put to the database...moreover there are some wrong results.....aaaand I'm just wondering have you ever seen the HD certification about the HD/D dog in Germany??? Because I haven't seen it.............so for me a little bit strange that you put some fals and incorrect results, some of them without official certification, but don't put some results though I have sent the official certifications such as: Juma,Myra,Galiba,Volos and I could continue.....most of all about my all breeding dogs.....
So make calculation with fals and missing results....hmmmmmm......

Anyway: I have never sad that hungary would have the best evaulation...but I could tell you that my vet is strict. And a little bit strange that we start with the same bloodlines, and in Hungary or Czeh Republik are very bad results...but some other countries are almost just excelent dogs.......so I'm a little bit sceptic, sorry.........

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by jasmine

Anyway: I have never sad that hungary would have the best evaulation...but I could tell you that my vet is strict. And a little bit strange that we start with the same bloodlines, and in Hungary or Czeh Republik are very bad results...but some other countries are almost just excelent dogs.......so I'm a little bit sceptic, sorry.........

I think you just named the BIG PROBLEM !!! "my vet is strict"

But how can we trust that she/he is ???
And how can we trust that all vets in your country are stict ???
And how can we know that somebody do not pay for a good result ???
Or knows the vet personally ???

I think we can only trust HD results from contrys whit a HD committee !!!

Best regards / Mikael

[jasmine]

In my country are two HD committee.....my vet is the member in one of them. The protocol is: he makes x-ray (with chipnumber and noseprint), make a pre-examination for me and send to the X-ray to the Orthoped Committee. We get back the results and the complex certification. The committee send the results to our kennelklub too,and it will be booked there.
In the committee are more veterinars (the best orthoped surgerons), and we could never know who will make the examination.

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by jasmine

In my country are two HD committee.....my vet is the member in one of them. The protocol is: he makes x-ray (with chipnumber and noseprint), make a pre-examination for me and send to the X-ray to the Orthoped Committee. We get back the results and the complex certification. The committee send the results to our kennelklub too,and it will be booked there.
In the committee are more veterinars (the best orthoped surgerons), and we could never know who will make the examination.

Thanks now I feel better

But the problem is that there are still not a HD committee in all countrys

Regards / Mikael

[admin]

Originally Posted by jasmine

Anyway: I have never sad that hungary would have the best evaulation...but I could tell you that my vet is strict.

You say so... But according to the stats I would not say that... It is nothing against your vet. Maybe he is really strict compared to others. But it do not seems that dogs in your country are evaluated stricter than in other....

Originally Posted by jasmine

And a little bit strange that we start with the same bloodlines, and in Hungary or Czeh Republik are very bad results...but some other countries are almost just excelent dogs.......so I'm a little bit sceptic, sorry.........

You are right. But it is easy to explain. In countries where ALL results are published the statistics are "worser" than in countries where breeders and owners publish only part of the results and nobody knows all of them.

In Czech Republic, Germany and Holland ALL HD-result are published in the official databases and magazines so we can easily put them into the database.
In Italy there is database with all results but we are not able to check all dogs if they were x-ray tested so many x-ray results are missing.
In other countries we get only results sent by owners and breeders and as we know most of them send only the good results and hide the bad.

The best example can be exactly Poland because we know about many hidden things here... On the first look the stats look nice - there are many dogs with great HD-results and only few with HD. So someone can say the vets in Poland are to so strict because the % of dogs without HD is pretty high. BUT only if you don't know the reality. And the reality it: there are more dogs with middle and strong HD in Poland but info about them is not included in the database.
We know several cases of HD-checked dogs which have dysplasia but the results has been never officialy sent to us so we can not include the results in the database. No, the real statistics for Poland are much worser than according to the database because some breeders do not publish results which are worser than HD-B.
When we will count also cases of dogs with HD which we already know we get statistics which are comparable to the results in Germany or Holland. And for sure the stats are even worser because for sure we do not know about all hidden cases of HD.

And it is exactly the same reason why in some countries (for example also Italy) the percentage of HD-free dogs is higher or much higher than in other countries. Not because dogs living there are more heathy. Or because the vets are no so strict. But mainly because the breeders hide bad results and publish only info about HD-A and HD-B dogs...

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by jasmine

In my country are two HD committee.....my vet is the member in one of them. The protocol is: he makes x-ray (with chipnumber and noseprint), make a pre-examination for me and send to the X-ray to the Orthoped Committee. We get back the results and the complex certification. The committee send the results to our kennelklub too,and it will be booked there.
In the committee are more veterinars (the best orthoped surgerons), and we could never know who will make the examination.

I would only hope that you was just as hard when it comes to inbreeding in your county...

"There is also the consanguinity trouble which is directly related to this point, on 5 generations some Crying Wolf mating have a COI of 25% (as reference brother sister mating gives 25% COI)."

Sad regards / Mikael

[Mikael]

Dogs with COI(5 generations) more than 20% since 2002 (sorted by birthday):

2007.10.12 -- 20.5078125000% -- Yvain Crying Wolf
2007.10.12 -- 20.5078125000% -- Yolka Crying Wolf
2007.10.12 -- 20.5078125000% -- Yasmine Crying Wolf
2007.10.12 -- 20.5078125000% -- Yarl Yanatos Crying Wolf
2007.10.12 -- 20.5078125000% -- Yanus Crying Wolf
2007.10.12 -- 20.5078125000% -- Yam Crying Wolf
2007.10.12 -- 20.5078125000% -- Yago Crying Wolf

2006.02.24 -- 35.4492187500% -- Thor Crying Wolf
2006.02.24 -- 35.4492187500% -- Therpsis Crying Wolf
2006.02.24 -- 35.4492187500% -- Thalia Crying Wolf

2005.07.22 -- 22.1191406250% -- Ré Crying Wolf
2005.07.22 -- 22.1191406250% -- Rubin Crying Wolf
2005.07.22 -- 22.1191406250% -- Robin Hood Crying Wolf
2005.07.22 -- 22.1191406250% -- Rambo Crying Wolf
2005.07.22 -- 22.1191406250% -- Rainbow Crying Wolf

2004.12.08 -- 22.2656250000% -- Psisan Crying Wolf
2004.12.08 -- 22.2656250000% -- Phyrhus Crying Wolf
2004.12.08 -- 22.2656250000% -- Philemon Crying Wolf
2004.12.08 -- 22.2656250000% -- Phenelope Crying Wolf
2004.12.08 -- 22.2656250000% -- Phemba Crying Wolf
2004.12.08 -- 22.2656250000% -- Pharis Crying Wolf
2004.12.08 -- 22.2656250000% -- Phanom Crying Wolf
2004.12.08 -- 22.2656250000% -- Phaedra Crying Wolf
2004.10.26 -- 21.7773437500% -- Ossa Crying Wolf
2004.10.26 -- 21.7773437500% -- Orpheus Crying Wolf

2003.01.06 -- 21.7773437500% -- Koira Crying Wolf
2003.01.06 -- 21.7773437500% -- Kazan Crying Wolf
2003.01.06 -- 21.7773437500% -- Kavik Crying Wolf
2003.01.06 -- 21.7773437500% -- Kavak Crying Wolf
2003.01.06 -- 21.7773437500% -- Karuk Crying Wolf
2003.01.06 -- 21.7773437500% -- Karlik Crying Wolf
2003.01.06 -- 21.7773437500% -- Kankin Crying Wolf
2003.01.06 -- 21.7773437500% -- Kajab Crying Wolf

2002.01.13 -- 22.9980468750% -- Frida Crying Wolf
2002.01.13 -- 22.9980468750% -- Fortuna Crying Wolf
2002.01.13 -- 22.9980468750% -- Forrest Crying Wolf
2002.01.13 -- 22.9980468750% -- Flash Crying Wolf
2002.01.13 -- 22.9980468750% -- Faust Crying Wolf
2002.01.13 -- 22.9980468750% -- Fargo Crying Wolf
2002.01.13 -- 22.9980468750% -- Fanny Crying Wolf
2002.01.13 -- 22.9980468750% -- Falco Crying Wolf

2002.01.07 -- 25.4882812500% -- Enzo Crying Wolf
2002.01.07 -- 25.4882812500% -- Elvis Crying Wolf
2002.01.07 -- 25.4882812500% -- Elton Crying Wolf
2002.01.07 -- 25.4882812500% -- Elmar Crying Wolf

Sad regards / Mikael