What should we add?

[Rona]

Originally Posted by Mirkawolf1

Of course you can´t do that. I was joking But it would be lovely, if it was possible, would not it.

Well, I'm not sure... There could be some kind of a ranking of breeders... People could write their comments and impressions about the kennels, the pups, etc. and the admins (or people whom they trust) could either publicise them anoymously or add a plus or a minus for every positive/negative remark. Of course one could never trust those rankings completely, but they could provide a kind of general guidance... A single comment would not have much value - even if negative - it could be just a result of some misunderstanding, but if something was repeated several times by various people, it might warn potential buyer and in result ...

Maybe a little poll for pup buyers would be a good idea?

[Rona]

Tina pressed the ENTER button... sorry...

... in result the potential pup buyers would have some sort of guidance and the breeders motivation to keep breeding standards.

[massimo]

Originally Posted by Rona

Well, I'm not sure... There could be some kind of a ranking of breeders... People could write their comments and impressions about the kennels, the pups, etc. and the admins (or people whom they trust) could either publicise them anoymously or add a plus or a minus for every positive/negative remark. Of course one could never trust those rankings completely, but they could provide a kind of general guidance... A single comment would not have much value - even if negative - it could be just a result of some misunderstanding, but if something was repeated several times by various people, it might warn potential buyer and in result ...

Maybe a little poll for pup buyers would be a good idea?

If you allow me to express my opinion, I am against "breeder ranking"
too subjective...not everbody looks on internet..
Opinions can be expressed on WD forum, no problem.
But if you post "ranking" on this site..i do not think it can be an "absolute" value.
massimo

[Navarre]

Originally Posted by Margo

but until the owner will send us the copy of the pedigree or official paper with the HD-result in the database card of his dog will be written "Result not verified" (simply said - the results can be false)....

I think it will finally solve the whole problem of the unhonest people...

I think not: for unhonest people is VERY VERY EASY to make false copy of any certificate...just using a scanner and photoshop, they don't have to be computer-genious!

On the other hand this rules only complicates a bit more the life of honest people.

[saschia]

Originally Posted by Navarre

I think not: for unhonest people is VERY VERY EASY to make false copy of any certificate...just using a scanner and photoshop, they don't have to be computer-genious!

On the other hand this rules only complicates a bit more the life of honest people.

Unfortunately, the world is getting more and more complicated for honest people in every aspect, whether it is certifying the HD results or getting on a plane. But posting false results and forging false certificate requires different levels of dishonesty, so let's hope it helps at least a bit.

By the way, I like your animated avatar, may I use your idea?

[Navarre]

Originally Posted by saschia

By the way, I like your animated avatar, may I use your idea?

of course!

[Margo]

Originally Posted by Mirkawolf1

That is good idea Margo, I like it. I only wish there also existed some kind of verification of the breeders. So that the future puppy owner could more easily find the difference between honest and not honest breeders. Many breeders are calling themselves "top breeders" on the net, while the reality is often somewhere else, often almost disastrously different.
Lol, I´d love to see "breeder not verified" at some of those!

I agree with you... We thought YEARS about it and tried MANY solutions.... but no GOOD solution was found... It would be great idea to make something like this but I do not find any good way to make it.... We could tell the puppy owners from specific kennel to evaluate the breeder. But you know the owners mostly say the best things because if they say something wrong about the breeder at the same time they confirm they buyed a dog from irresponsible breeder. And nobody want write something bad about his own dog....

So all we can do is to leave the possibility for people to ask about it on forum....

Originally Posted by massimo

Margo....do you think to put country of Certification would be exaggerated?....

It is possible but is make no sense.... because we see the differences are not between countries but between vets... Even in one country you can see different evaluations.... And yes, it would be possible to add such info - name of the vet who evaluated the hips...

Originally Posted by Navarre

I think not: for unhonest people is VERY VERY EASY to make false copy of any certificate...just using a scanner and photoshop, they don't have to be computer-genious!

On the other hand this rules only complicates a bit more the life of honest people.

Yes, it is complicated in some countries because there is no common registry... In CZ we do not ask every owner to send the copy of the results because we get the list of official results from the club. Similar is in Germany - some results we have already from VDH-breeding books. It is also enough because it is OFFICIAL. In Italy you have the nice official listings for dogs where you can see offsprings results...

For other - yes. It is more complicated than before (but many people sent us the copies already before). But it is not such huge problem - we will put all sent results as we've done it till now.... The only difference will be the info "verified" - noone MUST verified it... But "virified" means we have the copy of the certificate...

About the false copies - the results are recorded in the registries. It there will be a case that someone send us FALSE copy and we will descover it the person will be baned from Wolfdog.org lifelong. We will make also nice topic "PUPPY BUYER S BEWARE OF THE KENNEL xxxx". I promise you... We really have the ways to check it and we save all send copies.... So it really make no sense to make something like this...

[massimo]

Originally Posted by Margo

About the false copies - the results are recorded in the registries. It there will be a case that someone send us FALSE copy and we will descover it the person will be baned from Wolfdog.org lifelong. We will make also nice topic "PUPPY BUYER S BEWARE OF THE KENNEL xxxx". I promise you... We really have the ways to check it and we save all send copies.... So it really make no sense to make something like this...

...simply perfect!

[massimo]

ABOUT PHOTOS:
i understand we will be able to upload photos ourselves.
1) who checks photos uploaded? have you thought about a team for each language that checks that content of uploaded photos is not... OFF TOPIC?
2) have you also thought about managing the photos of your own dogs?
i mean, i know it can seem stupid but, if you allow me to upload a photo on for example Balrog's photogallery and I change the photo editing it making him look like a donkey, who can undo such upload? can each of us (with a certain authorisation level of course) take away photos we don't like if they are of our own dogs?
isn't there a chance of caos if all this checking and modifying is made only by webmasters?
again I repeat, i am ready to help if you ask..
massimo

[Patty33]

Hello

Regarding the photos:
If it is indeed the plan members will be able to upload photo's themselves...maybe it's also a good idea to allow only a certain amount of photo's? Photo's take up a lot of space...

I also believe Massimo has a good point: is someone or a team going to check the photo's? I'm also ready to help, if needed.

Kind regards,
Patty

[Natalya]

My suggestion: to stop advertising litters from dogs without bonitation codes. Look at some litters on sale now - that's not from wolfdogs! Maybe from some new breed or disqualified GSD And people can think that's the way normal CsW should look like. Let's stop helping in breedeng ugly P14!

[Nebulosa]

Originally Posted by Margo

About the false copies - the results are recorded in the registries. It there will be a case that someone send us FALSE copy and we will descover it the person will be baned from Wolfdog.org lifelong. We will make also nice topic "PUPPY BUYER S BEWARE OF THE KENNEL xxxx". I promise you... We really have the ways to check it and we save all send copies.... So it really make no sense to make something like this...

Good remember that one false copy of the result will give some problems for the breeders with the veterinarian who make the result, that will never allow this happen without take the correct providences with the justice.

Originally Posted by Natalya

My suggestion: to stop advertising litters from dogs without bonitation codes. Look at some litters on sale now - that's not from wolfdogs! Maybe from some new breed or disqualified GSD And people can think that's the way normal CsW should look like. Let's stop helping in breedeng ugly P14!

The idea is excelent, but the problem is that not all countries already have conditions to make the bonitation, or have few dogs, or have few breeders in far countries case, but, will be great if put why the dog still have no bonitation, if is because have no condition or because the breeder not want, if have no condition, will be easy to understand why and confirm it, if is because the breeder not want, will be dificult it gives a good and efficient excuse.

[massimo]

sorry but it's not sufficient to have bonitation to be good breeder..and on the other side not only those who mate bonitated dogs are good.
Sometimes bonitations are not held everywere.
I know many good litters from good breeders with NO official adult bonitations made...no witchhunt please.
massimo

Originally Posted by Natalya

My suggestion: to stop advertising litters from dogs without bonitation codes. Look at some litters on sale now - that's not from wolfdogs! Maybe from some new breed or disqualified GSD And people can think that's the way normal CsW should look like. Let's stop helping in breedeng ugly P14!

[Natalya]

Originally Posted by massimo

I know many good litters

Excuse me, who decided they're good? Some judge on dog-show who had read standard for the 1st time 5 minutes before?

The only way to state some dog is good or not is its bonitation code.

I'm not an expert, but even I can easily find a lot of disqualifying features in dogs whos puppies are on sale now. Some of them have empty pedigrees. I would like to see our site more "professional". And breeders who don't care about breed regulations could sell their "products" in some other place.

[massimo]

Originally Posted by Natalya

Excuse me, who decided they're good? Some judge on dog-show who had read standard for the 1st time 5 minutes before?

The only way to state some dog is good or not is its bonitation code.

I'm not an expert, but even I can easily find a lot of disqualifying features in dogs whos puppies are on sale now. Some of them have empty pedigrees. I would like to see our site more "professional". And breeders who don't care about breed regulations could sell their "products" in some other place.

Natalya, dearest, in order to express better my statement I kindly ask you first of all to write down (to yourself, not to me...) the names of the 5-10 best CSW breeders you think you know..
then look at all their litters and then tell me how many remain "good" according "just" to the presence of adult bonitation codes of parents or grandparents.


massimo

[Natalya]

massimo, I agree with you, CzW puppies are some kind of "lottery" and P1 parents don't guarantee P1 puppies. BUT what with bad parents (which hardly can be called CzW) our site advertises now? Yes, there is a small chance puppies will be good. But what chance? A kind of miracle?

And we're speaking about beauty only. If we mention character.... Some people who see CzW of non-Czech breeding are sure that the breed is shy, nervous and so on because "wolves shoud be shy and be afraid of people".

I'm not going to flood in this topic anymore (probably we can start new topic and discuss this problem there), Margo asked what should we add and I suggested what we should exclude

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Hi Natalya,

I fully agree with you that many judges have major problems with the breed standart.
And I agree with you that the bonitation code should be a parameter
for the exteriour and character of the dog.
Should be....
I for example travelled 1000km for a stud dog to find out that this dog with the code A70OfP1 was not more than A68M5E1F2OfPwhat ever. But that's another story.
Of course wolfdogs shouldn't be shy and afraid of people.
But I disagree with you that these dogs are from non-Czech breeding. Believe me, I know many dogs in Slovakia, Poland, Italy, Germany, ec. which are not shy at all.
And I know dogs fom Czech breeding which frighten theirselves to death confronted with people and other things.

Regards,

Michael

[Mirkawolf]

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

But I disagree with you that these dogs are from non-Czech breeding. Believe me, I know many dogs in Slovakia, Poland, Italy, Germany, ec. which are not shy at all.
And I know dogs fom Czech breeding which frighten theirselves to death confronted with people and other things.

Regards,

Michael

You are right on this one, Michael. I too saw very shy dogs in CR, or in Slovakia, same as dogs from France, Netherlands or Belgium.

The problem is in people. Not in the breeding, but in the breeders (not socialising pups at all) and then of course in the owners (not socialising again).

Often the breeder does not say truth about socialising - needs of the pup, in the hope to sell pups faster, easier etc. Some breeders do not help the owners of their pups, when they have problems.. Some do tell them it is normal, if the wolfdog is shy..

Some owners on the contrary, do not listen to their breeders. They refuse the advices, they think they know better. Or they get the dog for its beauty, but they don´t respect its needs and when the dog becomes shy.. they say that´s the wolf in it, see?

It is all about people. And it happens in all countries. I only must say, that I still saw larger amount of self-confident dogs in CR and SR, than in other countries.

[massimo]

Coming back to the argument "what should we add":
I would like to ask if it's possible to make a reserch on Dog shows BY JUDGE.
I would like to search dog shows made by a certain judge and to know "how" he judges.
Is it possible?
massimo

[Nebulosa]

I have see that some dogs have only the name, without the kennel name, too if they born in registred kennels, the kennel name only appears when you chek the data of the dog and see in the "breeder", but not appear in the name of the dog.
Exemple, the name of the dog complet is " fifi of kennel afix" but in the link and in the dog name only appear " fifi" and for see which kennel it comes, you have to see the " breeder", in the data-base of this dog.
So, can be that this happen because the people, when will add a dog in DataBase, in the local that is write " dog name" put only the name of the dog without the affix name ( not put the complet name), is possible that one "auto-explained ballon" when the people stop the mause in the local which will write the name of the dog can help in these cases, what you think about?

Another thing, one search for dogs by country, as have the stud dogs list, the idea is make the same but with males and females and with all dogs existents by country, not only the studs, is it possible??
One exemple that have, if not deceif-me, 16 dogs in Spain, I only know who are 6 of these 16, the others I never find in dataBase.

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