Subliminal dominance - shy Wolfdogs

[Pavel]

can you tell me, how much costs such a puppy of Saarloos wolfhound? I´ve no idea and i am not even
sure, if anyone here in CR breeds them.
Mirka

Mirko,
momentaly is no one Saarloos registrated in CZ.

Pavel

[Pavel]

Hi,

Hello what I can tell about shy Saarlooswolfhonden.

Christa we basicaly speaking about CsW, because not so many people here have a
experience with Saarloos.

I don't think it's good for the pup to go to the new owner at the age of 5
weeks.Most of the time it's the only dog in the house,so he will be socialized to
people but not to dogs,the only way to learn in the first 2 months is from other
dogs.So he is for the work it can be good,but not for being a familiedog and walk
in the park.

Christa, we speaking about a different things maybe. If the puppy still by breeder,
then is logically with her mother. The mostly problem is, that adult female guarding
own teritory and barking to every stranger people or animals. Basicaly instinct by
puppies is, when mother starting barking, then running out (barking of mother is for
puppies a warning). And if is it too long (over 8th weeks) it can still in dogs
behaviour this instinct very strong. Second thing is, that puppy see the people -
mother barking - its a warning - and running out. Then have in his brain coupled a
people like a dander creature for him. This is, whats basicly problem of
socialisation.
Second one, and its wnat about you speaking, is socialisation to other dogs. Of
course, that puppy must have a contact not only with other dogs, but with other
animals as well, if is it possible, with strange people, strange situations, strange
places etc. But this all experiences must just recognised alone or with owner - not
with adult dogs or in the worst case with his mother.
My dogs come to me in 5 and second in 4 1/2 weeks and they have had never problems
with shyness. My puppies goes always to new owner in 5th week and no one is shy. Its
my experience. So that this is the reason to take a puppy soon as possible. We see
the problems with CsW in countries, where new owner get the puppy soonest in 9th
week. In such countries is percentage of shy dogs much higher.

Pavel

[Mirkawolf]

You know, from all these discussions about training or not training them, i am getting interested in buying one
and train it to pass tests, just for the fun of it.

Mirka

[Xhrista]

can you tell me, how much costs such a puppy of Saarloos wolfhound? I´ve no idea and i am not even
sure, if anyone here in CR breeds them.

===An association pup cost 550 euro,there are not al lot of breeders.

Christa

[Mirkawolf]

what is association pup?

Mirka

[z Peronówki]

Woooo! What you did with the dog?
Mirka

It's TOP SECRET ))
But she would be able to pass the bonitation with P3 (because of her
character)...

Greetings,
Margo

[z Peronówki]

I heard of cwd litters also all good, but one shy. What do you think should
a breeder do with such a puppy? Should you cull/euthanize such a puppy or
keep it yourself? I don't think it should be sold, because it is bad for
the breed and the new owner will face problems that he cannot help.
Maria

It can be sold, but their owner must know what a dog he is getting (it is
the same problem if the owner buys the most dominant puppy). The new owner
must train with such dog much more than with "normal" puppy. But the results
can be pretty good. Now we have on the summer camp a CzW bitch. She is not
shy. She is very, very shy. But she passed today her 3rd test. It is special
case but all shy dogs, if they are trained to be not so affraid of
strangers, can be great for obedience, agility, flyball and other sports
where there is no contact with other dogs or people (you can teach such dogs
to bite but it has no sence and shy dogs will never be good for protection
work).

Greetings,
Margo

[z Peronówki]

I dont know, which experience have other breeders or owners, but I must
say, that I never seen and heard about such case. Yes, of course, the puppies just born with different character, but really shy puppy I never seen. Less courageous puppies are quite normally.
Pavel

I think now we must clear what is a shy puppy We make litter previews at
our kennel club and sometimes we have "normal" litters. Every puppy has a
little bit different character but all have no problems with contact with
strangers. But sometimes we have litters with one or two "autistic" pups
(last time it was bichon friese). Such puppy is not walking away or biting
of course what is normal for older dogs. But there is very hard to contact
with it, imposible to play with it, and it is always less courageous - it is
always looking for a safe place where it can "hide" (kennel, crate, ....)
And
if the new owner has no idea how to train such dog and how to work with
it, after it grows up, it will be shy...

There are some great tests for puppies - if the result for one puppy will be
"better keep your hands off this dog" it will be later exactly a shy
dog.....

Greetings,
Margo

[Per Olav]

From my limited personal observation I do not believe that compulsion
would be too successful for any dog with wolf blood in it including the
CSV and the SAR.
It certainly does not work for breeds exhibiting lesser tendencies of
neotony such as the Alaskan Malamute or the CAnadian EskimoDog. [--]

According to Stephen Jay Gould, neotony is described as:
[...] the result of developmental retardation at various stages of human
ancestral and foetal development, as well as at various juvenile stages of
primate development. In other words, the foetal and/or juvenile traits of
our ancestors or own species are retained into later stages of individual
development.

This is an interesting subject and I should very much appreciate your
comments on this theme as well as on how wolves and wolfdogs might be
trained by subliminal dominance .

---
Per Olav

[Tonje]

Hello everyone,

I am new to this list, and ought to give a presentation of myself. Since I
tend to go on a bit (to other people's and my own desperation..), I have put
that in parenthesis' below so at the minimum that part can be skipped!

I am extremely curious about Parker Adam's "sublime dominance" concept and
would like to join in the number of people asking "what is that?" and "How can
one use it actively in the training of low neotony dogs?" (I think I mean low
neotony, not high..). Parker Adams' description of how efficient eg. the
recall is with this method, makes it even more enticing (who wouldn't want a
close to 100 % proof recall?). The "sublime"-part, does that refer to some
kind of implicit dominance/leadership? And if so, in which manner? For
instance, I regard the process of clicker training as one method for
indirectly establishing leadership, another "leadership establishing" maneuver
is taking responsibility for certain situations, eg. not allowing the dog to
check out visitors before you have greeted them and then only when you say it
is OK etc., but that is surely not what is meant here?

(I am Norwegian, don't have a CSV and will probably never have one either, as
I suspect that a CSV would simply be too much for me. At the moment I have a
5,5 year old mix of 75% GSD/25% tervueren and a 3,5 year old basenji, both are
bitches. Previously I have had flat coated and labrador retrievers and done
obedience and rescue dog training.

Due to the basenji, I am extremely interested in the CSV. When we got our
basenji, little did we know that this breed isn't really domesticated, nor
what that actually implied. Little Amy has given us shock after shock, and we
have several times been downright lucky. (You should see what they do to
horses, moose, snow scooters etc.) The basenji is a very old breed (at least
4000 years old). They have never been actively bred by humans, all breeding
has been through natural selection. Since they came to the west, in the 1940s,
they have only been bred for showing and not temperament. Therefore a number
of basic instincts have been retained.

There seems to be a number of similiarities between the CSV and the basenji -
destructivity, hunting, escape experts (basenjis are eminent diggers, jumpers
and "creative" climbers), not outgoing, extremely selfwilled and independent.
In addition to the appearance (one looks like a wolf and the other looks like
something sweet from a Disney movie), there is one gigantic difference though.
The basenji is an extremely nervous dog that tends to respond agressively when
it is frightened. This, happily, does not seem to be the case with the CSV as
far as I can see. Believe me, you do not want fear based "I'll get you before
you get me" as a major trait in your CSVs!

Training a basenji is highly challenging, as is living with it. I have never
found a basenji mailing list that adresses behavioural or training aspects to
any extent. It is a small dog with an appealing appearance, which I suppose
influences what kind of people gets them. Generally they don't seem interested
in such things.

I have spent some happy hours catching up on this mailing list, and see how
many interesting themes you discuss (leaving me with about 100 000 questions,
but they will have to wait). It is thanks to Per Olav that I have found this
list. In case you don't already know - Per Olav is an extremely nice person!
He is also very responsible. A question about CSV came up in a norwegian
discussion group, there were many oohs and aahs, what a beautiful dog, my next
dog shall be a CSV, I know a lot about dogs, how difficult can it be and so
forth. Per Olav took the trouble to answer questions, to direct to relevant
web cites and to warn against any form of romantism concerning the CSV (no GSD
this!). Since then I have stalked and pestered poor Per Olav, so in the not
too distant future I hope to see "the puppy", Cziky, in real life. I really
wonder what Per Olav will call Cziky when Cziky gets older - "the pooch", "the
little doggie"?)

Regards Tonje

[Koos]

Hello Mirko,

Just coming home from our holiday from Czech Republique and Slowakia, I
followed the discussion about shy dogs. We also met the shy dog from the
French people and we helped with some translation to them. Nothing happened
with this dog and she was even willing to do everything with her. Also the
character test was OK. The only thibng was talking to her, that she was a
nice dog and that she was doing fine.
Sometimes this works also.

Letty