wolf percentage

[tikaani]

hi every one, i was wondering about the percentage of wolf blood in a cwd and how many generations it would take before there wasnt any left, as your not aloud them over here unless there isnt wolf blood in them so it has to be below 1 percent. any idea how many generations that would take. thanks

[Pavel]

Hi Tikaani, I dont undertand, why is so interesting blood percentage ? Its only pure mathematic number and have nothing to do with genetic, exterior or character of dog.

[tikaani]

Originally Posted by Pavel

Hi Tikaani, I dont undertand, why is so interesting blood percentage ? Its only pure mathematic number and have nothing to do with genetic, exterior or character of dog.

im interestedas to how many generations itll take for thwere to be no more wolf blood as over here your not aloud any wolf blood in a dog, but if cwd has got to the point were there wasnt any wolf blood in the generation then you would be aloud one tecnacly, not interested in looks or anything like that, purly hyperthetical, so do u know? thanks

[Pavel]

Originally Posted by tikaani

im interestedas to how many generations itll take for thwere to be no more wolf blood as over here your not aloud any wolf blood in a dog, but if cwd has got to the point were there wasnt any wolf blood in the generation then you would be aloud one tecnacly, not interested in looks or anything like that, purly hyperthetical, so do u know? thanks

It have nothing to do with generations or wolfblood percentage. Just in first generation can be puppies, there have typicaly signs (exterior, character) of CsW and on other side in 3rd generation can be puppies, which have typically signs of pure wolf or pure GSD. Very generally can say, that pure breed is recognised in this time, when just absolutelly majority of population have typicaly signs according standard (and of course enought variable and big population). Its absolutelly doesnt matter how many generations.

[tikaani]

Originally Posted by Pavel

It have nothing to do with generations or wolfblood percentage. Just in first generation can be puppies, there have typicaly signs (exterior, character) of CsW and on other side in 3rd generation can be puppies, which have typically signs of pure wolf or pure GSD. Very generally can say, that pure breed is recognised in this time, when just absolutelly majority of population have typicaly signs according standard (and of course enought variable and big population). Its absolutelly doesnt matter how many generations.

defra unfortunatly do it a diferant way over here where it goes down every generation, thats why i was askin if you knew how many generations it would take as after a certian amount it would mean it would be legal to have them over here, which means we could work on gettin them recognised here which would be beter for the breed. if any one else knows can u please let me know, thanks

[Angelika]

Originally Posted by tikaani

i was wondering about the percentage of wolf blood in a cwd and how many generations it would take before there wasnt any left

Remarkable question, tikaani
CSWs are mated with CSWs - so the mathematical percentage can never be zero.

[Per Olav]

Originally Posted by Angelika

Remarkable question, tikaani
CSWs are mated with CSWs - so the mathematical percentage can never be zero.

Very understandable, though
In Norway the CSV is banned and the Saarloos is not based on mathematial fact that the CSV is the youngest breed of the two and hence more upredictable due to the higher content of "wolfblood".

[Angelika]

Originally Posted by tikaani

i was wondering about the percentage of wolf blood in a cwd and how many generations it would take before there wasnt any left

Hi Per Olav

could you please explain it again? Maybe it´s too late (or I´m too old ) to understand.

cheers
Angelika

[Per Olav]

Originally Posted by Angelika

Hi Per Olav

could you please explain it again? Maybe it´s too late (or I´m too old ) to understand.

cheers
Angelika

Sure

The Norwegian Governments decission of banning the CSV was based on a assertion by the Norwegian Ministry of Justice. The Ministry says that based on the fact that the Saarloos originating from a first mating between wolf and dog by the early 1930ties and the origin of the CSV by a first mating by mid 1950ies the percentage of wolfblood of the CSV is the highest one. The higher percentage wolfblood = more unpredictable/dangerous breed.

[Angelika]

Thank you, Per Olav From this point of view it´s understandable (but not logical).

cheers
Angelika

[rocco]

Originally Posted by Per Olav

Sure

The Norwegian Governments decission of banning the CSV was based on a assertion by the Norwegian Ministry of Justice. The Ministry says that based on the fact that the Saarloos originating from a first mating between wolf and dog by the early 1930ties and the origin of the CSV by a first mating by mid 1950ies the percentage of wolfblood of the CSV is the highest one. The higher percentage wolfblood = more unpredictable/dangerous breed.

It's very funny for me and for all people who knows something about SAW and CZW. Ministry of Justice is really expert .

[Pavel]

Originally Posted by tikaani

defra unfortunatly do it a diferant way over here where it goes down every generation,

But I dont understand, why you need it ??? CsW is not hybrid, not wild animal. CsW is a normally recognised dogs breed. Defra do it by e.g. GSD, shar-pei or boxer as well ? How ? All dogs (and not only dogs - all pets) have some part of "wildblood", but today is it never more the question, because are domesticate. And if somebody want to cross pure breed with wild animal, its no sense do it privat. And if somebody want to create new breed, must have a good project for it, all arguments why, and how, then is never more problem, because then get a special permission and nobody will counting a "wolfblood percentage".

[Mirkawolf]

Originally Posted by Pavel

But I dont understand, why you need it ??? CsW is not hybrid, not wild animal. CsW is a normally recognised dogs breed. Defra do it by e.g. GSD, shar-pei or boxer as well ? How ? All dogs (and not only dogs - all pets) have some part of "wildblood", but today is it never more the question, because are domesticate. And if somebody want to cross pure breed with wild animal, its no sense do it privat. And if somebody want to create new breed, must have a good project for it, all arguments why, and how, then is never more problem, because then get a special permission and nobody will counting a "wolfblood percentage".

You don´t understand, or you do not want to?

CSW is normally recognised dog breed by FCI. UK is not member of FCI, therefore they don´t care, which dog breeds FCI recognises or not. Imagine, that world does not end with borders of FCI! So if in UK they decide they don´t recognise a breed, that´s it.

On the other side, I spoke about the UK problem few days ago with my husband, who actually happens to know the DEFRA guys, who are responsible for the CSW problem. And surprise surprise, they say there is no problem with CSW in UK! They told him they do realise, CSW is a breed and they have no problem with the dogs comming to UK or staying.

Which makes me think, that the whole circurs about CSW´s being banned in UK was only Paul Winder´s trick, how to be in the middle of attention and how to be the first one (and only one) to have CSW in UK.

This whole debate about wolf percentage is then absolutely irrelevant. There was never a problem in bringing CSW into UK and no problem with wolf blood percentage (which is complete nonsense, anyways).

However, as we learned recently very disturbing news about Pacino´s kennel, it is very possible, that the problems with DEFRA or the breed be really banned can now happen easily. And frankly, I would not be surprised at all.

[Pavel]

Originally Posted by Mirkawolf

You don´t understand, or you do not want to?

CSW is normally recognised dog breed by FCI. UK is not member of FCI, therefore they don´t care, which dog breeds FCI recognises or not. Imagine, that world does not end with borders of FCI! So if in UK they decide they don´t recognise a breed, that´s it.

Mirka, I dont understand really. Pibull is not recognised breed as well and ask somebody about his "wolfblood percentage" ? Why by CsW ?

Originally Posted by Mirkawolf

Which makes me think, that the whole circurs about CSW´s being banned in UK was only Paul Winder´s trick, how to be in the middle of attention and how to be the first one (and only one) to have CSW in UK.

This whole debate about wolf percentage is then absolutely irrelevant. There was never a problem in bringing CSW into UK and no problem with wolf blood percentage (which is complete nonsense, anyways).

However, as we learned recently very disturbing news about Pacino´s kennel, it is very possible, that the problems with DEFRA or the breed be really banned can now happen easily. And frankly, I would not be surprised at all.

I have had this feeling, that DEFRA is not stupid organisation , then why would need such "wolfblood percentage" ? I feel, what you said, that this is problem of some owners and breeders in UK. Why and what they doing with CsW, i doesnt know, but it will be very nice from all, who will us inform about the situation.

[tikaani]

Originally Posted by Mirkawolf

You don´t understand, or you do not want to?

CSW is normally recognised dog breed by FCI. UK is not member of FCI, therefore they don´t care, which dog breeds FCI recognises or not. Imagine, that world does not end with borders of FCI! So if in UK they decide they don´t recognise a breed, that´s it.

On the other side, I spoke about the UK problem few days ago with my husband, who actually happens to know the DEFRA guys, who are responsible for the CSW problem. And surprise surprise, they say there is no problem with CSW in UK! They told him they do realise, CSW is a breed and they have no problem with the dogs comming to UK or staying.

Which makes me think, that the whole circurs about CSW´s being banned in UK was only Paul Winder´s trick, how to be in the middle of attention and how to be the first one (and only one) to have CSW in UK.

This whole debate about wolf percentage is then absolutely irrelevant. There was never a problem in bringing CSW into UK and no problem with wolf blood percentage (which is complete nonsense, anyways).

However, as we learned recently very disturbing news about Pacino´s kennel, it is very possible, that the problems with DEFRA or the breed be really banned can now happen easily. And frankly, I would not be surprised at all.

have you the number and the name of the person you spoke to from defra, as i would like to contackt them and ask there opinion on this as iv had conflicting statments from them, thank you.

[Mirkawolf]

Originally Posted by Pavel

Mirka, I dont understand really. Pibull is not recognised breed as well and ask somebody about his "wolfblood percentage" ? Why by CsW ? .

Perhaps because 50 years ago, pitbull was not directly involved with pure wolf? And as far as pitbull is concerned, the breed has already enough banns and restrictions on its head, even without wolf blood percentage.
Is it really so hard to understand, that in some countries, the authorities have a strong syndrome of Red Ridding Hood, being affraid of anything too natural?
Having lived in Belgium for 4 years now, my opinions on this madness about CSW and wolf blood percentage haven´t changed, but seeing the way people think here, having read arguments on foreign forums, even UK one´s, I can understand it better.
It is neccessary to open your eyes, look beyond your own yard and country, see how people act there and think, then you can perhaps understand, how can some country come with such restrictions or ideas.

[Mirkawolf]

Originally Posted by tikaani

have you the number and the name of the person you spoke to from defra, as i would like to contackt them and ask there opinion on this as iv had conflicting statments from them, thank you.

It was not me, but my husband, who is involved in regulatory affairs area. If you PM me your e-mail, I can put you in contact with my husband, he can explain you things better and perhaps he has the contacts you ask for. I only know he had met the people on one of his foreign conferences on very different matter, but went to discuss on wolfdogs with them during the break

[Rona]

Mirka, I agree with you 100%. We all know that several CSVs have lived happily in the UK and their owners have had no problems. Still breeding is another issue. If DEFRA legitimised the breed they would have to allow CSV breeding, which at this point would be too risky, in DEFEA's opinion.

I have had this feeling, that DEFRA is not stupid organisation , then why would need such "wolfblood percentage" ? I feel, what you said, that this is problem of some owners and breeders in UK. Why and what they doing with CsW, i doesnt know, but it will be very nice from all, who will us inform about the situation.

In my opinion they're using this ridiculous argument as excuse for not willing to recognise the breed. The real reasons lie elsewhere but are difficult to be formulated in legal terms.

***

I feel we've been morally abused by Paul in that sense, that majority of European CSV lovers for a few years supported his ideas and claims, and were ready to listen with goodwill to what he had to say, only to find in the end that he was using this site solely for adveritsing his litters, and we cannot even be sure now if there were pure CSV litters

I personally feel very, very disppointed, Paul.

[Rona]

Originally Posted by tikaani

to how many generations itll take for thwere to be no more wolf blood as over here your not aloud any wolf blood in a dog, but if cwd has got to the point were there wasnt any wolf blood in the generation then you would be aloud one tecnacly, not interested in looks or anything like that, purly hyperthetical, so do u know? thanks

Yes, we do. Idefinite number of generations. For two reasons:
1. There will always be wolf genes if CSVs are crossed only with CSVs. Genes do not evaporate with time... it is not alcohol

Their statistical percentage may vary in particular dogs depending on mathematical calucations but that doesn't mean anything. There is more to genetics than figures... a higher wolf blood percentage CSV may be very much like an ordinary dog, and a low wolf blood percentage - more independent, shier, etc. depending WHICH genes were activated in a specific match, i.e. gene combination.

But you need to remember that in the Pohranicny Straze Military Kennel methodical work was carried out towards selection of dogs that would be as doggish, trainable and work-loving as GSDs, and as healthy and strong as wolves. Although nobody cared for their appearanace, there were no random matchings! The first hybrids were trained for work and later tested. Those that did not pass the working tests were eliminated from breeding. The animals of the strongest 'wolfish' nature (most independent and shy) were simply NOT used for further breeding, because they were useless for service, however some of their genes remained in the population and their remote "echos" now contribute to the differences among particular CSVs

That's why people who know the breed put so great emphasis on the need to train CSVs and give them opportunity to work - this is the most basic selected element of their nature and at the same time the most valuable trait of their character. It's just a great pity that some people do not understand this and treat them as show dogs only. I agree with Hanka that it's a geat waste of their potential.

2. There are plenty of wolf genes in every dog of any breed. If this was not the case wolves and dogs could not be mixed with each other. If wolves' genes were to be eliminated from dogs, all dogs would have to be exterminated

[tikaani]

Originally Posted by Rona

Yes, we do. Idefinite number of generations. For two reasons:
1. There will always be wolf genes if CSVs are crossed only with CSVs. Genes do not evaporate with time... it is not alcohol

Their statistical percentage may vary in particular dogs depending on mathematical calucations but that doesn't mean anything. There is more to genetics than figures... a higher wolf blood percentage CSV may be very much like an ordinary dog, and a low wolf blood percentage - more independent, shier, etc. depending WHICH genes were activated in a specific match, i.e. gene combination.

But you need to remember that in the Pohranicny Straze Military Kennel methodical work was carried out towards selection of dogs that would be as doggish, trainable and work-loving as GSDs, and as healthy and strong as wolves. Although nobody cared for their appearanace, there were no random matchings! The first hybrids were trained for work and later tested. Those that did not pass the working tests were eliminated from breeding. The animals of the strongest 'wolfish' nature (most independent and shy) were simply NOT used for further breeding, because they were useless for service, however some of their genes remained in the population and their remote "echos" now contribute to the differences among particular CSVs

That's why people who know the breed put so great emphasis on the need to train CSVs and give them opportunity to work - this is the most basic selected element of their nature and at the same time the most valuable trait of their character. It's just a great pity that some people do not understand this and treat them as show dogs only. I agree with Hanka that it's a geat waste of their potential.

2. There are plenty of wolf genes in every dog of any breed. If this was not the case wolves and dogs could not be mixed with each other. If wolves' genes were to be eliminated from dogs, all dogs would have to be exterminated

hi i understand about the wolf blood never leaving the blood line but if defra looked at it like that we wouldnt be aloud any dogs over here, what im lookin for is a hyperthetical responce kinda. like if the bood percentage is 50/50 the next generation is 25 etc, this is how defra do it not my idea. but tecnicaly after a certain amount litters the percentage would be 0, would it not? and if that is so, tecnicaly we would be aloud them over here