handling of health problems

[Rona]

Originally Posted by loco

I hope for the future that it stil will be "mine own free will" to judge if something is a fairytale, gossip, a personel attack or the truth

I also think any kind of "cenzorship" would deprive some people of the valuable opportunity to unveil their true motivations and intentions.

Ina, a lack of answer is also an answer.... Paradoxically, a very self-destructive kind of answer!

[Nebulosa]

Originally Posted by Rona

I also think any kind of "cenzorship" would deprive some people of the valuable opportunity to unveil their true motivations and intentions.

Its the bad side of more rigorous moderation, for who are ble to judge the informations, these people are also able to know who is right, who is wrong, what is gossips and so on will have the use of the forum for "let masks fall" cutted by half , but for newbies its pretty different, have people who arrives here without have the minimal idea about HD, ED, myelopathy, dwarf and others problems, someone who have no idea about it and read the unfair comment of someone which let clear about "how bad is for breeding have a carrier gen for dwarf in the breeding" and "how unscrupulous a breeder which breed using a carrier dog are" will only be more confuse, will start to seek only free dogs for breeding and find 'bad" that someone used a carrier dog and maybe, depending of the person, will even start to blame breeders who have carrier dogs, for exemple, wrong information can cause much more damaged than the lack of it.

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Originally Posted by Rona

I also think any kind of "censorship" would deprive some people of the valuable opportunity to unveil their true motivations and intentions.

Ina, a lack of answer is also an answer.... Paradoxically, a very self-destructive kind of answer!

Yes you are right but I think you sometimes need to know the whole story that happened before to realize that. And not all people think to the end of a story they heard or can read between lines.
For those who tend to believe what they read and are newbies it is like Nebulosa wrote difficult to find the truth. If the tactic wouldn´t be successful in at least some cases it wouldn´t be used for so many years for so many times and not every breeder would hesitate to write openly about his problem to look for advice.

I don´t care that much about people that are not intelligent enough or care enough to find out what is right or wrong, in my strange opinion CSW are intelligent dogs that need very clever owners to be handled properly.
But is it really in favor of the breed when we let lies get so much influence? It is much more difficult to get everything on a better way than to start right. If we look at the situation in some countries we can see how many non standard dogs and maybe also not healthy dogs this produces.
And if we look in some of these countries on the experts that gave their advice we will find the same people again that we find here telling their weird stories and giving no answers..

[loco]

Rookie or Big Expert ???????, it is still to mine own person to judge what is right or wrong .
And that is the same with everything, that make's us the persons that we are .
And if I ever listend to the people who are "the Big and Famous Expert", sorry then I never owned a CSW .
And surtern not from Warsaw.
And i'm very glad that i did not listend to the big and famous expert , because i am very happy with mine doggie .
A Eternal Rookie .

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by Hanka

I can write you: exist MUCH carriers in this moment in all states, but only sometimes we can see dwarf puppy. In czech was not dwarf puppy many years. (info what we have, it can´t be 100% info).

You see - it is exactly the result fo breeders fights... I know at last about 2 dwarfs born in Czech Republic int he last 2 years and some other cases as "suspicious"...
It is the problem with "information" flow and the reality...

First - just think how many puppies die in every litter. I know by some kennels we remove sometimes 50% of the puppies because they die before they get registered. Sometimes we remove whole litters. I do not say they all are dwarfs but it means we do not have a LOT of information about the resons of puppies dying.

Second - breeding comittee members are also breeders and they ALSO use (or can use) such information for their personal "wars". Look what Monika is writing - many of the accusations base on the information which she get when she was breeding comittee member. So it is obvious that many breeders will hide the problems because they will be affraid to be attacked.

Do you remember the case with the breeders who had dogs with missing testicles? He was marked as "cryptorchidic" breeder ONLY because he was honest enough to show their dogs on the bonitation when they get P14 because of the missing testicle. After it he was attacked by other breeders (saying he is bad breeder) how ALSO had dogs with missing testicles but they were "clever" enough to hide such dogs and do not allow their owners to go with their dogs to make bonitation...

Do you want other example - I publish all HD-results of my dogs. Even the worser one. After Bolton had HD-C I heard other Polish breeder saying that the only "displatic" dog in Poland live in my kennel. It was told by breeder who is using not HD-tested lines and hiding information about really bad results in her line.

Some years ago we received HD-results from pone Italian kennel. Good one were for publication. Worser only for our information. Do you know why the person was forced to do this? Because of the another Italian breeder who was blaming her for breeding dogs with HD. It is funny because exactly this person bred many dysplatic dogs - of course he was putting on internet only the good results of his dogs. I would say more - he was putting BETTER results that the dogs really had.
I was shocked when exactly by the person who was attacking other italian breeders wer realized how many dogs with bad HD and ED results were hidden and how many results we had to fix because the breeder wrote they are HD-A but in the fact they were HD-B or HD-C....

Such hypocrisy is very common by many breeders and I could write tens of examples why many breeders hide some information. Of course there are some breeders who do not affraid to write about the problems in public but if we like it or not miost problems are and will be hidden and known only for a very small initiated group of breeders.

Originally Posted by Hanka

Dwarfism is problem, but not so big. For me is bigger problem HD, shy wolfdogs, mix with saarlos....

Yes, there are many "problems" which we should follow...

It will be easy to deal with the mixes - so far the spread in the breed because many people have no idea they have not-purebreed dogs. I know that in the new database and mixes - not REAL wolfdogs - will be marked as "NOT FOR BREEDING". Such warning will get EVERY dog who has a mix in the pedigree. Even if the mix will be in 20 generation before. We will let the lines to die out.
The breeders and owners of mixes are also banned by Wolfdog - their dogs are not put on the stud dog list, their litters are not advertised and their kennels are not on the kennel list.


About the health problems - since we have more and more infromation we "discover" new problems. Of course many of them exist and will exist forever. Cryptorchidism, epilepsy, heart problems will appear because they appear in every population. We track such cases and collect the information.

For example heart problems are more common as many of you think. But still it is not "typical problem" for this breed. It means only that it is good idea also to get your dog tested and just not to breed with dogs with such problems.

The same with epilepsy - from time to time there are cases in different "lines" and in different countries. But again: write about such cases, do not use "ill" dogs fro breeding. It is all what can be done bacause we do not even know what kind of epilepsy it can be (sometimes it is caused by accidents, sometimes it looks like genetic - there are many possible factors).

With HD and ED it is already more clear. Of course worser HD appear and will appear in any kennels. But there are already lines where problems with the hips are much more common. Remove this lines? Of course not - nobody ask it. But expecially such lines should be more tested - and the dogs with worser result sshould be removed from breeding without looking for a "backdoors" (vet who will get better results to a dicplatic dog so the dog can be used for breeding).
Also no responsible breeder should use a dog from "ED-line" if the dog is not tested for ED... And for sure not to make it with a female comming from similar line (known for similar problems).

If we keep to this rules the problems will not dissapear (they will never dissapear as in EVERY population there will be small percentage of ill dogs which are "ill" because of the mutations and "bad luck") but the problems will not spread in the breed....

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

Due to the discussion yesterday and Mijkes new post, with which I totally agree, I would like to get some opinions.

First, now I communicated with some people I regret that I even answered to Monika and forced her to tell names, I do and did apologize for that.
My motivation was that I was extremely fed up with the kind of people that always seem to need to blame somebody, mostly with wrong accusations.

They ruin the name of kennels, a lot of gossip is done behind backs not only openly here, and they prevent more responsible people to speak openly about occuring problems and make the prevention of problems close to impossible, at least very difficult.

I think the topics are not so bad... Of course many of us do not like the fighting; the personal wars. But I think such topics are very usefull... Because thanks to them the true can be published and anyone can convince themself that many "news" told by some people are just fairy-tales invented to ruin names of rival kennels...

What is the problem: some gossips and lies are told by people who are claimed to be 'known' and 'responsible' owners/breeders/judges. It is told 'behind the back' to other breeders.
And if the person XXX who is well know judge and CzW breeder tells that kennel YYY has specific health problems MANY people will believe it it. Why not? The person XXX ia an experienced breeder... Expert... she knows a lot so it must be true....
In such case the attacked breeder can not defend himself. He and his kennel suffers even if the "news" are real lies.

If the lies and gossips are published (like on this forum) it start to be visible that it was told by person XXX only to harm the rivals.

Also for me the topics were usefull... What is funny - the bigegst lies are told by people who have the biggest prblems in their own countries...
The lies about German kennels are spread by a German breeder who was removed from FCI and VDH because of breeding mixes.
The lies about Polish kennels are spread by a Polish breeder who has the biggest problems to follow the FCI breeding rules.
And all this lies are repeated by a Czech breeder who has huge problems in Czech Republic because of promotion of the non-breed CzW and implicated in many other "gates".

The lies are much worth as is the worth of people who are telling them - it means NOTHING. But it can be showed first when the lies are published and the hypocrisy of the people spreading them is made obvious to all...

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by loco

Rookie or Big Expert ???????, it is still to mine own person to judge what is right or wrong .
And that is the same with everything, that make's us the persons that we are .
And if I ever listend to the people who are "the Big and Famous Expert", sorry then I never owned a CSW .
And surtern not from Warsaw.
And i'm very glad that i did not listend to the big and famous expert , because i am very happy with mine doggie .
A Eternal Rookie .

I agree. If we would believe to all this what so called "experts" are saying we would believe in MANY lies...

I heard SO MANY lies about different dogs and different breeders which turned out to be just lies and gossips that I preffer to make my own opinion basing on facts and not what one of two people are saying....

I think what really counts is just the common sence. And instead of spreading the "only truth" is it better to publish FACTS so everybody can judge what is the true and what not...

[Hanka]

Margo, if you know some litters with dwarf puppy in Czech rep. in last two years, why you did not contact me or Mijke? You know, we collect these info. We are not "open forum". If you know it on 100%, please write to us. I can contact beeder and I can ask him about more. You know, we try to compile "net" where genes go and every info has "value of gold" for us.....You know.
I don´t care about some stupid speaking of some people which know only attack other breeders. I have my own brain and I belive the dates what collect myself. Some cryptorchid in kennel- Hm, it can be, we have dogs, not machines. But I will not start to know it is bad kennel.....

For me is "closed" forum of "experts" not good idea. Who will tell: this or this person is "expert"? I think is bad situation if in countries don´t work breedcomission with these infos.

Short OT info: hi hi, now I know person which has first wolfdogs and now is this person BIG expert about wolfdogs (health, blood lines, in last days especially albinismus).For me is very funny when "somebody" write me email like "Thuomas from Finland" and this person writes me he is interest about puppy and he wants know info about my light silver pups what we have now......

I don´t want to be with these people in some "group of experts", thanks....
but we have demokracion. If people will want this forrum...............

[Rona]

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

Yes you are right but I think you sometimes need to know the whole story that happened before to realize that. And not all people think to the end of a story they heard or can read between lines.
For those who tend to believe what they read and are newbies it is like Nebulosa wrote difficult to find the truth. If the tactic wouldn´t be successful in at least some cases it wouldn´t be used for so many years for so many times and not every breeder would hesitate to write openly about his problem to look for advice.

I take your point Ina, but on the other hand one cannot shut the gossipers’ mouths and they’ll continue spreading their rumours /lies privately or on some other platforms, where there is no possibility to confront them and present true views and facts. Not to mention, that if banned or heavily moderated, they will keep victimizing themselves, and using this fact as an argument for their cases.

Last summer I met a man who asked me which kennel Lorelei came from. Since he looked a bit weird, (the type I call little macho willing to walk with a big wolf ) I gave him a name of a nonexiting kennel . We started talking about CSVs and he told me he had already conducted research for buying a CSV and one of the breeders from central Poland, the top expert in CSVs (sic!) briefed him about the CSV market in Poland. You wouldn’t believe what nonsense I heard about Margo’s kennel, about Galicyjski Wilk and a couple of others!!! By eliminating the “bad” kennels and adding 2 + 2 I could guess with great probability who the source of his “info” was, but since he didn’t mention the name directly, I won’t spread gossip.
Even if half of what he said was true, I should have already been sued by Margo for not taking Lorka often enough to dog shows , my dog should be half her size, have very poor HD and ED and would never be able to play unleashed with other dogs or peacefully walk in busy streets, all of which she often does. .

I am sure this man was not the only indoctrinated one! Such cases have happened, happen and will happen in every country, and I think it’s better to be able to address the gossipers: ask for evidence, details, names, etc. If they cannot display them, and in return only call their opponents names or do not answer the questions, they only discredit themselves. If they do answer, the situation isn't much better. Recent example? Even open, unprejudiced person, who tries to see arguments of all sides, finds it hard to understand how a breed expert may so easily blame breeder(s?) for not testing their dogs for dwarfism, if she herself hasn’t tested hers yet (only intends to ...) .

So maybe a moderate moderation would be a solution? Giving warnings to forum members who use offensive terms like liar, bonsai breeder, etc. or who use deplorable expressions like some of our little machos with big wolves sometimes do?
I don’t mean or mind hot discussions or strong argumentation, but if somebody cannot control himself to the point of throwing mud at others, he should be warned a couple of times and only then - banned.
On th other hand, the moderator or admin should tell forum members very openly and precisely what this person was banned for, so there is no room for victimization and self-victimization.

[mijke]

Originally Posted by Nebulosa

Only for one small add here, i'm searching for informations about eyes diseases in the breed and ED, so who knows something about it and wants share informations i'm open.

The of Maisons-Alfort did start last year together with CNRS in Rennes a research for eye diseases of CSW. The research is led by Dr. G Payen and Dr. S. Chahory.
They did test CsW's of French, Chech, Slovakian and Hunagrian lines.
And they did find for example: PRA, PRA related disease, cataract, retina dysplasie.
I'll try to get the whole official report of this research and will inform you later.

And HERE you can find some more eye test results

Originally Posted by Nebulosa

... but for newbies its pretty different, have people who arrives here without have the minimal idea about HD, ED, myelopathy, dwarf and others problems

There is no need to make newbies afraid with all kind of health story's they don't understand (or can't see in the right perspective)
That is why I did ask for also a breed/stud dog forum (for every registered breeder and stud dog owner, they don't need to be experts!)

There we can first discuss about a lot of health problems and later on make objective explanations on normal forum.
And I hope in breeder forum breeders will also speak more open together

For example only a few writers here now know there is also a new dwarf born in ....
But nobody wants to speak about this (even I don't want to!) because we don't want to harm the breeder.
Because newbies can possible think that it is not a good combination!
But for me it is a pity that we can't share these kind of info and photo's, because we all could learn of this.

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Originally Posted by Rona

So maybe a moderate moderation would be a solution? Giving warnings to forum members who use offensive terms like liar, bonsai breeder, etc. or who use deplorable expressions like some of our little machos with big wolves sometimes do?
I don’t mean or mind hot discussions or strong argumentation, but if somebody cannot control himself to the point of throwing mud at others, he should be warned a couple of times and only then - banned.
On th other hand, the moderator or admin should tell forum members very openly and precisely what this person was banned for, so there is no room for victimization and self-victimization.

I think this is a very good solution, together with a new forum for breeders. Would it be possible to open such a kind of forum here?

@Nebulosa: I will try to reach a friend of mine of the DOK and ask if they are willing to help you with datas. You also could contact the VDH who gets a double of the evaluation form. I never heard of PRA in this amount in Germany, it would maybe also help to find out if it is spread in all lines like the dwarf genes or if it is only in few lines. As far as I do know we don´t have those lines of the test in Germany, at least not that spreaded, actually I don´t know one. But as we have to do eye tests with every breeding dog every year and the DOK, the VDH and the breeders get a copy of every test it should be possible to get the datas of every breeding dog in Germany. My problem is we don´t have an official club here so I don´t know if I can get the datas directly.

Another question: According to what I was able to read on the Polish forum there have been paternitiy tests done on Saarloos in the Netherlands, that showed that Chrop was bred into some of them, have they been done also on CSW the other way round?

Ina

[Rona]

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

I think this is a very good solution, together with a new forum for breeders.

Sorry for being devil's advocate, but haven't some of the breeders turned to be the heaviest gossipers and bullies? Aren't you guys afraid they'll use the info from the expert forum to sperad even more rumours and gossips among the 'newbies'?

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

I know but somehow we have to find a better way to communicate and maybe it would be a possible way to exclude liars if the lies are proofed to be lies. At least in a breeders forum people mainly know each other and better know each others dogs.
Don´t get me wrong I am only trying to do some kind of brainstorming to find a better way to communicate and I find it always better to know as much opinions as possible. It is easier (and cheaper) here than by phone or private mails and I don´t have much time this year to visit shows or camps. I wanted to talk to Mijke in Bratislava but had to leave without being able to speak to anybody.

Ina

[Rona]

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

I know but somehow we have to find a better way to communicate and maybe it would be a possible way to exclude liars if the lies are proofed to be lies.

I'm afraid the procedures to proof it would be quite a challenge. Besides, who is to grant the "certificates of honesty"? Admin? Poor admin... .

I'd suggest a skype discussion group to which you'd invite only people you know and trust. This would be free of charge if you all have broadband and much safer. What's more, nobody could blame you for not including them in your "private conversations"

[saschia]

Originally Posted by Rona

I'd suggest a skype discussion group to which you'd invite only people you know and trust. This would be free of charge if you all have broadband and much safer. What's more, nobody could blame you for not including them in your "private conversations"

The disadvantage of Skype is that you need to be present to attend the discussion. On the other hand, with web forum you only need to come, have a look and say your opinion even weeks after the start.

[Rona]

Originally Posted by saschia

The disadvantage of Skype is that you need to be present to attend the discussion. On the other hand, with web forum you only need to come, have a look and say your opinion even weeks after the start.

You don't need to be present if you use the communicator, i.e. chat . You just click the button "conversations from yesterday" or "from the last 7 or 30 days or from the beginning" and read what everybody has written. You can send photos, documents, films, etc. and have several groups for various topics discussed, with different sets of participants

It's not my business and I don't care how the breeders will communicate among themselves. I just wanted to point another solution, maybe less controversial...Just imagime all the ill-feelings, accusations and commentaries if some breeders were invited to the "elite expert wolfdog.org forum" and some were not.

Whatever method of communication you choose, I wish you good luck with your efforts! I'm sure such 'brainstorming CSV health team' discussions will bring good developments for the breed and this is the thing that really matters.

[saschia]

Originally Posted by Rona

You don't need to be present if you use the communicator, i.e. chat . You just click the button "conversations from yesterday" or "from the last 7 or 30 days or from the beginning" and read what everybody has written. You can send photos, documents, films, etc. and have several groups for various topics discussed, with different sets of participants

Yes, but the participants all have to be online or you need to stay online until everybody gets what you have sent. You can access your communication but only for limited time (days, months but not years), and if you use several computers it tends to create chaos. Skype is great for instant communication, but not for widespread exchange of facts etc, especially not for people who live in different time zones or have internet access at different times of day.

I am not trying to say your idea is wrong - I just try to point out that the way you suggested is not ideal and for what reasons. If somebody resents not being invited into a web-based forum, they can also resent not being invited into a Skype chat.

[loco]

Originally Posted by Rona

Sorry for being devil's advocate, but haven't some of the breeders turned to be the heaviest gossipers and bullies? Aren't you guys afraid they'll use the info from the expert forum to sperad even more rumours and gossips among the 'newbies'?

Touché .

[loco]

Originally Posted by z Peronówki

I agree. If we would believe to all this what so called "experts" are saying we would believe in MANY lies...
..

hiih Sorry, but I really mean "big expert" .
And i will be the last to say, that they are telling lies .
Groette Martine.

[hanninadina]

The lies about German kennels are spread by a German breeder who was removed from FCI and VDH because of breeding mixes.


Hey Margo, do you mean me? What happens with you? You were a such nice persons. The last month your are fighting on different places with different people. You spread csw in poland so you have to live with the fact that people will have a different opinion than you have. Why you cannot live with it?

I am not removed from FCI, who told that? I did not breed mixes and I will never breed mixes, because after that one litter in 2008 I will never breed again, because from my personal point of view there are not enough people who are able to care right for a csw. And of course if you ask me, do you like more csw or american wolfdogs, there is only one answer the american ones! And what can I say all people who get to know them think like me. That is my opinion you can now remove my statement as you often did it, Przemel or Nebulosa because you do not accept different opinions.

Everyone who knows me and the people I am with who own wolfdogs will know from which ill csw who died I wrote. Monika of course know that male csw because she got to know him in summercamp. No lies, all true! And that line is from Eichhorns Zlata Platz breed.

People ask me to answer to your accusation Margo. I am not into in wolfdog often because I have not that much time as some people seems to have.

And Margo, if you want I will send you all what was written between vdh and me.

But be realistic, there are only 7 % of all dogs in germany organized by vdh. So this is a very small amount of all dogs in germany. Who cares what the vdh is thinking?

I wish that you calm down and don´t fight useless fights. I love Myla Crying Wolf and U´Tala z Molu Es. Without them I never would have Noomi and Nuno the most beautiful topstars in wolfdogs in europe.

Christian