Growing the breed - lessons from the past.

draggar · 21-02-2010, 16:55

While I'm no history buff I do love to look at history and learn what happened, what the results were, what caused them, and so on.

Right now the vlcak breed is small here in the USA. FSS recognition by the AKC, about 30 dogs registered with the AKC. There is a lot of potential, both good and bad.

I don't know many people in the breed but in the past I've noticed that a lot of people "into" a breed tend to be uneducated (maybe even ignorant at times?) about other breeds. (I am not saying everyone is like that - think of this like a public service announcement).

German Shepherds:

I've ranted about GSDs and how the breed has been close to destroyed here in the USA. Most show line shepherds have little to no working ability, most wouldn't be able to last a few hours herding sheep (if they even knew how to herd) due to poor hip and temperament breeding as well as poor nutrition.

When the vlcak breed is 100 years old I would have to see them become this. Take a look at the history of the GSD breed and you'll see 3/4 distinct periods.

The early years (from 1899 (their creation) to the 1920's / 1930's). They were still very similar to the continental shepherd (I think the closest breed we have to that today is either the Belgian shepherd or the Dutch shepherd). Hard core working dogs, bred for working, structure, temperament, etc.

Then in the 1920's / 1930's the evolved into what we recognize as a GSD today. Big head, definite saddle on the back (Interesting (useless) tidbit - the Chinese call them "Deguo Hei Bei" (sp?) - roughly translates to "German Black Back" - makes you realize when they were introduced in China), taller, and a little longer than the Belgians. They still had straight backs and could still work.

Thanks to American movie stars like Strongheart and Rin Tin Tin GSDs became very popular in the USA from the 1940's and on (although called "Alsatians" during WWII due to anti-German sentiment, much like the Afghan hounds went though back in 2001/2002). For a few decades they stayed similar to the German lined counterpart (I think many were still imported or bred from imports during this time).

Then, today's American lined GSD appeared thanks to one dog - Lance of Fran Jo. Lance himself spawned the popularity of the American bred / lined GSD. Lance produced more offspring than a pair of rabbits will in their entire life. Sadly, this is where the hip, gate, and temperament issues started. This is what has led to today's American shepherd - rear end dragging on the ground (as breeders try to get more extreme as they breed).

The change was gradual but it happened anyway.

Shiloh Shepherd:

Right now, for the lack of a better term, it seems that there is a civil war going on between the Shiloh Shepherd people. One side is with the person who is credited for creating the breed and the other is with the person who created the breed club. Both have very strong differences of opinion - almost to the point of being militant.

A friend of mine wrote an article for one side's publication. They threatened to not publish when they found out that he was going to judge the other side's national show. (He didn't care - he doesn't need publicity from their publication).

I don't think anyone in the US could be considered a "creator" of the breed like with the shiloh shepherd (since they've been around since the 1950s / 1960s) and the standard was set before they came here. Luckily, we don't have the "creation" and "continuation" issues. We already have a standard but I'd hate to see factions break out.

Pit Bulls:

Personally I'm not a fan of the breed (I'm not a terrier person) but I do know the bad press they get is because of bad breeding, bad owning, and very poor training. Despite them being illegal in Miami-Dade county, there are a lot of them there and here in Broward county and extremely few are bred ethically (I do know one breeder in the area and he breed the greatest and sweetest dogs out there - he even had to get a malinois to protect them from being stolen!). The bad press is NOT the breed's fault (IMO the owners should be punished, not the dogs).

Pits teach a valuable lesson for BSL (Breed Specific Legislation / Laws). Obviously they were written by people who don't know the breed but only read the papers. Lack of education is what really gave the breed such a bad reputation.

What those of us in the USA (and Canada) should do is be proactive about education with the vlcak breed. Show people that they are NOT wolves (I'm willing to bet Luna will not only be a schutzhund dog but also a service / therapy dog).

Dalmatians:
Dalmatians have a (or pretty close) to a 100% rate with a kidney issue (I forgot exactly what the issue is). The issue is painful and fatal - luckily many die of old age before the kidney goes out. Back in the 1980s the gene that activates this issue was noticed plus a cure was noticed. One generation of a cross breed with another breed of dog (I think it was a terrier?). None of the cross bred dogs had the kidney issue yet AKC won't recognize them, nor will the parent breed organization allow these dogs in the show ring because they were cross bred (and not considered purebred even though the outside breed was only one generation).

Is pride or the all mighty "pure bred" tag really worth the pain and suffering many of these dogs will go though? The dalmatian club's board has voted whether to allow the cross-bred dogs into the club and it's always been shot down.

I'm sure many other breeds have lessons we can learn from and attempt to avoid in the future with the vlcak. (If you know of any, feel free to join in!).

21-02-2010, 18:37

What great info, Draggar! I love researching similar things with as many breeds as I can. I feel that a general knowledge of the dog community as a whole goes a long way, as you said, in helping a breeder decide the future of their own breed (especially one so young as the CsV). I think of all the things I've come across, the work vs. show lesson is the biggest. There are the obvious dogs, like GSDs, where you can see the harsh difference between working and show animals. However, even in other breeds where to the untrained eye the difference might not even be visible, the subtle ways judges tend to pick "flashier" dogs colors how breeders aiming just for champion show dogs breed. These subtleties can snowball over time to create dogs like the current American Show GSDs, English Bulldogs, American bred Shar Peis, and countless others.

One of my favorite examples of where the subtle changes may not be noticeable is the with the Siberian Husky. Although there is still a lot of overlap, it's very clear that there is a "type" that is popular among the most popular show dogs. These dogs are slightly shorter in leg, probably due to huskies being small for sled dogs. While huskies are smaller than other dogs meant for the same job, this shortening of the legs, while only a slight aesthetic difference, makes a huge difference when it comes to the dog's endurance for long distance hauling, which is the specific job huskies were bred to do. It's only a minor physical difference, but a huge factor in working ability.

I think these examples are why it is so vital to make it a priority to work CsVs in some fashion. I feel that at the very least, the dog's endurance for physical work and the elements should be tested, even if it's just in the breeder's own personal experience (although, of course, titles would be preferable). I would even go as far as to say that when a national breed club is formed, something to that effect should be included in the club's ethics of breeding, that the dog be tested in some way, other than showing alone, prior to breeding. I know it wouldn't necessarily stop the problem from occurring down the line, but I think it would help to put that big of an emphasis on it, that in order to be a member of the club you MUST test your dogs physically.

Of course, like I always stipulate when I talk about this stuff, I'm not yet a dog breeder or CsV owner, I've just put a lot of thought and research in the subject to help me out in the future.

GalomyOak · 21-02-2010, 22:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by draggar

While I'm no history buff I do love to look at history and learn what happened, what the results were, what caused them, and so on.

Right now the vlcak breed is small here in the USA. FSS recognition by the AKC, about 30 dogs registered with the AKC. There is a lot of potential, both good and bad.

Negative.

So far as I know, there are only 4 CSVs registered with AKC - and very shortly, 4 more. There was one registered earlier, I believe, but I don't know that she is with us anymore...long story.

I think some more of the imported dogs will be registered this year...when I registered Anthea and Roni (summer, 2008 ), AKC told me mine were the only ones registered. Also, some of the dogs are spayed/neutered, and/or the owners are not AKC friendly. A couple of dogs came from a country where the KC doesn't yet recognize them (soon, though?) - UK, so therefore don't have papers to transfer.

We're at the beginning of the journey.

21-02-2010, 16:55	#1
draggar Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: New Hampshire Posts: 370	Growing the breed - lessons from the past. While I'm no history buff I do love to look at history and learn what happened, what the results were, what caused them, and so on. Right now the vlcak breed is small here in the USA. FSS recognition by the AKC, about 30 dogs registered with the AKC. There is a lot of potential, both good and bad. I don't know many people in the breed but in the past I've noticed that a lot of people "into" a breed tend to be uneducated (maybe even ignorant at times?) about other breeds. (I am not saying everyone is like that - think of this like a public service announcement). German Shepherds: I've ranted about GSDs and how the breed has been close to destroyed here in the USA. Most show line shepherds have little to no working ability, most wouldn't be able to last a few hours herding sheep (if they even knew how to herd) due to poor hip and temperament breeding as well as poor nutrition. When the vlcak breed is 100 years old I would have to see them become this. Take a look at the history of the GSD breed and you'll see 3/4 distinct periods. The early years (from 1899 (their creation) to the 1920's / 1930's). They were still very similar to the continental shepherd (I think the closest breed we have to that today is either the Belgian shepherd or the Dutch shepherd). Hard core working dogs, bred for working, structure, temperament, etc. Then in the 1920's / 1930's the evolved into what we recognize as a GSD today. Big head, definite saddle on the back (Interesting (useless) tidbit - the Chinese call them "Deguo Hei Bei" (sp?) - roughly translates to "German Black Back" - makes you realize when they were introduced in China), taller, and a little longer than the Belgians. They still had straight backs and could still work. Thanks to American movie stars like Strongheart and Rin Tin Tin GSDs became very popular in the USA from the 1940's and on (although called "Alsatians" during WWII due to anti-German sentiment, much like the Afghan hounds went though back in 2001/2002). For a few decades they stayed similar to the German lined counterpart (I think many were still imported or bred from imports during this time). Then, today's American lined GSD appeared thanks to one dog - Lance of Fran Jo. Lance himself spawned the popularity of the American bred / lined GSD. Lance produced more offspring than a pair of rabbits will in their entire life. Sadly, this is where the hip, gate, and temperament issues started. This is what has led to today's American shepherd - rear end dragging on the ground (as breeders try to get more extreme as they breed). The change was gradual but it happened anyway. Shiloh Shepherd: Right now, for the lack of a better term, it seems that there is a civil war going on between the Shiloh Shepherd people. One side is with the person who is credited for creating the breed and the other is with the person who created the breed club. Both have very strong differences of opinion - almost to the point of being militant. A friend of mine wrote an article for one side's publication. They threatened to not publish when they found out that he was going to judge the other side's national show. (He didn't care - he doesn't need publicity from their publication). I don't think anyone in the US could be considered a "creator" of the breed like with the shiloh shepherd (since they've been around since the 1950s / 1960s) and the standard was set before they came here. Luckily, we don't have the "creation" and "continuation" issues. We already have a standard but I'd hate to see factions break out. Pit Bulls: Personally I'm not a fan of the breed (I'm not a terrier person) but I do know the bad press they get is because of bad breeding, bad owning, and very poor training. Despite them being illegal in Miami-Dade county, there are a lot of them there and here in Broward county and extremely few are bred ethically (I do know one breeder in the area and he breed the greatest and sweetest dogs out there - he even had to get a malinois to protect them from being stolen!). The bad press is NOT the breed's fault (IMO the owners should be punished, not the dogs). Pits teach a valuable lesson for BSL (Breed Specific Legislation / Laws). Obviously they were written by people who don't know the breed but only read the papers. Lack of education is what really gave the breed such a bad reputation. What those of us in the USA (and Canada) should do is be proactive about education with the vlcak breed. Show people that they are NOT wolves (I'm willing to bet Luna will not only be a schutzhund dog but also a service / therapy dog). Dalmatians: Dalmatians have a (or pretty close) to a 100% rate with a kidney issue (I forgot exactly what the issue is). The issue is painful and fatal - luckily many die of old age before the kidney goes out. Back in the 1980s the gene that activates this issue was noticed plus a cure was noticed. One generation of a cross breed with another breed of dog (I think it was a terrier?). None of the cross bred dogs had the kidney issue yet AKC won't recognize them, nor will the parent breed organization allow these dogs in the show ring because they were cross bred (and not considered purebred even though the outside breed was only one generation). Is pride or the all mighty "pure bred" tag really worth the pain and suffering many of these dogs will go though? The dalmatian club's board has voted whether to allow the cross-bred dogs into the club and it's always been shot down. I'm sure many other breeds have lessons we can learn from and attempt to avoid in the future with the vlcak. (If you know of any, feel free to join in!). __________________ Fred Lanting's Official Site Dog Actors

21-02-2010, 18:37	#2
Vicky Guest Posts: n/a	What great info, Draggar! I love researching similar things with as many breeds as I can. I feel that a general knowledge of the dog community as a whole goes a long way, as you said, in helping a breeder decide the future of their own breed (especially one so young as the CsV). I think of all the things I've come across, the work vs. show lesson is the biggest. There are the obvious dogs, like GSDs, where you can see the harsh difference between working and show animals. However, even in other breeds where to the untrained eye the difference might not even be visible, the subtle ways judges tend to pick "flashier" dogs colors how breeders aiming just for champion show dogs breed. These subtleties can snowball over time to create dogs like the current American Show GSDs, English Bulldogs, American bred Shar Peis, and countless others. One of my favorite examples of where the subtle changes may not be noticeable is the with the Siberian Husky. Although there is still a lot of overlap, it's very clear that there is a "type" that is popular among the most popular show dogs. These dogs are slightly shorter in leg, probably due to huskies being small for sled dogs. While huskies are smaller than other dogs meant for the same job, this shortening of the legs, while only a slight aesthetic difference, makes a huge difference when it comes to the dog's endurance for long distance hauling, which is the specific job huskies were bred to do. It's only a minor physical difference, but a huge factor in working ability. I think these examples are why it is so vital to make it a priority to work CsVs in some fashion. I feel that at the very least, the dog's endurance for physical work and the elements should be tested, even if it's just in the breeder's own personal experience (although, of course, titles would be preferable). I would even go as far as to say that when a national breed club is formed, something to that effect should be included in the club's ethics of breeding, that the dog be tested in some way, other than showing alone, prior to breeding. I know it wouldn't necessarily stop the problem from occurring down the line, but I think it would help to put that big of an emphasis on it, that in order to be a member of the club you MUST test your dogs physically. Of course, like I always stipulate when I talk about this stuff, I'm not yet a dog breeder or CsV owner, I've just put a lot of thought and research in the subject to help me out in the future.