Italian bonitations

[loco]

I think it will be very disapointed when a dog (even standing alone) will be scared off this figurant .
On this picture he has no stick and certain no menace to the dog .

Groette Martine.

[Juniorwolf]

Originally Posted by loco

I think it will be very disapointed when a dog (even standing alone) will be scared off this figurant .
On this picture he has no stick and certain no menace to the dog .

Groette Martine.

Well first of all a photo don`t say all, it was just to show that their was a character test, and if you use a stick or not, the dog should react if someone is making an attack towards it(some dogs have bigger comfortzones than others and this is what is tested in the character test in all bonitations).
If a dog is extremly shy/nervous(as claimed earlier) it will for sure not stand all relaxed in this situation on the photo ! ...it would try to get away(even that it can not because of the leash).
Sorry but I am very tired now and will go to sleep, tomorrow I will look closer to all replies and make some more comments

Thanks for the friendly tone thise questions have been replied in, I hope it will continue ...as I wrote earlier, I am no expert or have big experience with CSW, so I am still learning a lot(and hopefully will learn more all life).

Greetings Rolf

[Juniorwolf]

Originally Posted by Margo

Nebulosa wrote it already... Italian bonitation check if the dog will protect the owner or if the dog will not run away if someone attack the owner (the dog is on the leash so I sure all dogs will pass it because even shy dog can not run away). But it is NOT a CHARACTER test...

Such test says nothing and is for nothing...

Well I don`t give much for the character test anyway(as I explained in another post), so I don`t think this change in the way of how the character test is performed will make a big difference. Another thing is that I am pretty sure that a very shy dog will NOT pass the test even if it is on the leash, it would still TRY to get away(leash or no leash).

Originally Posted by Margo

Ask Sona if somebody said her BEFORE the bonitation that it will be such kind of bonitation? Of course not... So she decided to make her best and (as it is also by the Slovakian bonitation) she already tested the character during the measurements - it is the reason for worser character codes and also why some breeders get crazy. It is also the reason why Mr. Casseli decided to break the bonitation of Miky (he knew that even after changing the character test the dog will get P14)....

All people(also Sona) have the possibility to say no to jugde if it is against her conviction to perform a bonitation, dogshow or whatever in a way that she/he do not agree with(nobody put a gun to her head ...as far as I know ?), about what Mr.Casseli did or why he did it, I don`t know ? because I was not there and I have never spoken with him about it.

Originally Posted by Margo

Now the Italian club invite only judges which agree to "cooperate".
Now the question for you - could we tell "good judge" about a judge who accept to bonitate as Czechoslovakian Wolfdog animals which are not Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs?

I really don`t think it is up to any jugde to decide if a dog is pure breed or not, this must be problem of the kennelclub who have registered the dog as purebreed, the job of a jugde is to evaluate the exterior at dogshows and also at bonitations where the jugde also have to evaluate the character.

Originally Posted by Margo

In the second case (height) you are not right because it is not the difference between Czech and Slovakian judges....

Ok maybe it is not the jugdes(I am not all sure who do what in a bonitation), but then it is the breedingcommittee`s who have different opinions about height.

Originally Posted by Margo

Anyway there are some differences - I would not say the differences are between Czech and Slovakian bonitation but mostly between the knowledge of some people who make the bonitations.
Dog with index of height should get P14 in Slovakia AND in Czech Republic. But in Slovakia the judges pay attention to it and in Czech Republic nobody cares about it...

How can one say that one difference is worser than another difference ?
Where goes the limit ? are there any official guidelines for this exact problem ?

Originally Posted by Margo

But as Saschia write - both clubs work on it and I hope not only the (small) differences will be removed but also that there will be some tests which judges / breeding comittee members will pass BEFORE they can make measurements and evaluate the dogs during the bonitations...

If the difference is big or small is very objective, especially if there is no official guidelines for this excat problem.
I am very happy and pleased to hear that SK and Cz clubs are working on it and I really hope that they will come to an agreement on all issues soon and I would be VERY happy if they would take the Character test up for evaluation, so in the future they would have a more wide character test who also takes into consideration the problem about family dogs and trained dogs(IPO or similar).

Sorry for the red color, but I don`t know how to break up the quote in several pieces ? ...so all writing in red is by me !

Greetings Rolf

[woland77]

Italian Bonitation and, character test it is a very serious matter, my English is not as many serious, i wait Massimo for an appropriate translation.. I have personally compared the Italian test, Czech and Slovak, and I have a lot of things to say, talk to you soon..

[Juniorwolf]

Originally Posted by woland

Italian Bonitation and, character test it is a very serious matter, my English is not as many serious, i wait Massimo for an appropriate translation.. I have personally compared the Italian test, Czech and Slovak, and I have a lot of things to say, talk to you soon..

You are very welcome
I think non of the Character tests is very serious, they are too small and have a serious lack of ambition ...I think all 3 tests could be done much better ! My point is just that when non of them are perfect(or even close) then why make such a big fuss about one and not the others ?
A Danish saying(maybe it is international ?) goes like this : "people should sweep infront of their own door, before sweeping infront of others".
meaning : you should not complain about others who is not perfect, if you are not perfect your self

Greetings Rolf

[hanninadina]

It is really really true what you did write Rolf. I don´t understand why people around Margo made that big problem. You had seen german bonitation done by Sona Bogorova. I like her very much. She is a real kind person. But, I cannot understand that she puts real shy dogs with Oc on P1. It were two out of the C litter Zlata Platz. The dogs were real scared. And coming back to main problem. The character test was 3 minutes, 4 minutes. It is nothing!!!

I had to pass character with my briard boy in german club cfh. It needed about 45 minutes for each dog! And not 3 minutes. We had that dog problem from 2000 because pit bull bited a 6 year old boy to death in hamburg. And from that point on we had list for dogs who were not allowed to breed or to bring in into germany. And at that point list dogs had to pass character test. And the briard club test was legaly like from the state character test. But in comparison to character test what is been done in bonitation, it is nothing. So, we all know that the results from italian bonitation were put out of the database since Margo was sure that the Mutaras were brought in the breed. She declares that it is because the italian test is not to compare with czech or slovakian test. But what for? These test are too nothing in comparison to real character test.

And everytime repeating that Miky Passo del Lupo should have bad character, I can only laugh at. I saw him twice, last year and this year. On his own ground without(!) his owner and he was so sweet and kind to me although he did not know me. A foreigner in his own garden. And he came to me and was like a sweety wanted to be touched from me and was all around me in an absolute friendly way. In a way I never saw before from a csw adult male dog! I hope every csw male would be like him and people would not have problems.

Sorry Margo, I like you very very much and I did enjoy very much you wolfdog camp at the end of august. But you are not kind of objectiv I would appreciate. The italian csw are much more dogs and dogs for people and city than every others. And please I know dogs from your litters which get crazy passing 30 m away with others dogs. Are they normal, afraid of what for? These are all behaviours of single dogs. Nothing to say all dogs out of this kennel are so. So please keep cool.

Sure it is your web site. But please 500 puppies in the year in comparison to 60 in germany, 70 in slovakia and 100 in czech allows much more better selection.

Christian

As Rolf wrote, sweap in front of your doors first please before accusing other breeders. Try to be objectiv. Please, it is christmas time! All the best for you all.

[Juniorwolf]

Originally Posted by hanninadina

It is really really true what you did write Rolf.

I fully agree with this

Originally Posted by hanninadina

These test are too nothing in comparison to real character test.

This is exactly my point ! The character test in Cz and Sk bonitation is ONLY testing if the dog will defend it`s owner and it self, but this really say NOTHING about character, you can train your dog to react correct in these situations, but this SHOULD not be a test of training, but of character !
...so all in all one could say that the name "character test" should be changed to "test of defence reaction" OR the character test should be performed in a much more serious and ambitious way to live up to the name "character test". This is why I think this "small" difference in the Italian version of the "character test" really mean nothing.

Greetings Rolf

[elf]

Some affirmations are true some are false.

It's true that a dog can be at a kind of level conditioned for character test (that's why for the first french bonitation I asked people not to prepare their dog to have a brut results).

It's false that one cannot learn a lot about an adult dog character with test less than 45min. It's false that you can learn/condition all to a dog for test character, sensorial homeostatsis ability is not "learnable".

Interestingtalk about Miky. The problem nowadays is not the talk around the character of Miky, but in France we have a real problem of genetic diversity and population bottleneck on this line, 396 offsprings for Miky, 760 for Cutt.

[Juniorwolf]

Originally Posted by elf

It's false that one cannot learn a lot about an adult dog character with test less than 45min. It's false that you can learn/condition all to a dog for test character, sensorial homeostatsis ability is not "learnable".

I see don`t where it is written that 45min. is minimum ? But I agree that 3-5min. is not enough to make a complete character test, but the TIME is not the main issue, the main issue is HOW the test is performed

Greetings Rolf

[Nebulosa]

Well, t'ill now we talk only about the character tests differences in Italian Bonitation, but I remember about problems with the notes for dogs with wrong index, that if not deceifme was one of the others problems envolved with Italian Bonitation.
Character test itself have differences between Czech republic and Slovak, only that won't discredit a bonitation like we can see in italian ones.
Maybe, italian people can explain it better.

[Juniorwolf]

Originally Posted by Nebulosa

Well, t'ill now we talk only about the character tests differences in Italian Bonitation, but I remember about problems with the notes for dogs with wrong index, that if not deceifme was one of the others problems envolved with Italian Bonitation.

I did not hear/read about this in the Italian bonitation, but it is apparently like this in the CZ and SK bonitation according to Margo(see the quote below).

Originally Posted by Margo

Dog with index of height should get P14 in Slovakia AND in Czech Republic. But in Slovakia the judges pay attention to it and in Czech Republic nobody cares about it

Originally Posted by Nebulosa

Character test itself have differences between Czech republic and Slovak, only that won't discredit a bonitation like we can see in italian ones.
Maybe, italian people can explain it better.

I personally don`t think one difference is worser than another, Cz and Sk bonitations ARE different, in Cz all "normal" dogs get the code R1 and as far as I understand Sk only give this code to dogs who are more than normal dry types, then there is the difference with 1cm too little in height and also the difference with index, so in Italy they have a difference in "character test"(which discredit the bonitation) and in Cz and Sk they have a difference in how to write codes(which discredit the bonitation) ....is one better or worser than the other ? I think not

Greetings Rolf

[Navarre]

Hello, i think we must talk mainly about facts, more than opinions.

- is a fact that italian bontace has different rules than ceko-slovakian. Czech and Slovakian have different interpretation , but the test is almost the same.
I won't say italian is better or worse, only is different! So isn't right to give the same code (Px) with different rules...italian coluld gave a different code (IPx for example).

- is a fact that more and more italian breeders and owners no more trust in anyway on the management of breed operated by so-called "italian breed club".
You can clearly see this, looking at the bonitation organized in Pavia by us and by some our friends with the help of Czech Club : the 2nd largest bonitation ever in the world, with more than 40 dogs (at the bonitace of italian club very often there are 4 or 5 dogs at most!)

- I don't care much, but indeed is a fact that Micky Passo del Lupo (a dog that I personally see many and many times OUTSIDE HIS HOME, ever with the tail under his belly) IS a shy, un-balanced dog, with shy brothers, that made shy sons that made shy nepew...
May be he could have other strong points, but for sure NOT the character.

[Juniorwolf]

Originally Posted by Navarre

Hello, i think we must talk mainly about facts, more than opinions.

- is a fact that italian bontace has different rules than ceko-slovakian. Czech and Slovakian have different interpretation , but the test is almost the same.

This make no sense to me ? when you say "almost the same" this is your opinion and not a fact, another opinion could be that they are different, because they are ONLY "almost the same".

Originally Posted by Navarre

I won't say italian is better or worse, only is different! So isn't right to give the same code (Px) with different rules...italian coluld gave a different code (IPx for example).

One could easily say the same about Cz and Sk, it isn't right to give the same code (Px) with different interpretations.

Originally Posted by Navarre

- is a fact that more and more italian breeders and owners no more trust in anyway on the management of breed operated by so-called "italian breed club".
You can clearly see this, looking at the bonitation organized in Pavia by us and by some our friends with the help of Czech Club : the 2nd largest bonitation ever in the world, with more than 40 dogs (at the bonitace of italian club very often there are 4 or 5 dogs at most!)

When you make such a big number out of what is facts, then please make sure what you write really is facts ! as far as I can read, there was 17 dogs at last bonitation made by "so-called" Italien breed club and at the last 3 bonitations before that, there were 16, 12 and 12 ...I only see 1 bonitation made by you and friends with help from Czech club with 41 dogs, but jumping to this conclution on such a small basis that you write here, is really not objective ! ...please correct me if I am wrong

Originally Posted by Navarre

- I don't care much, but indeed is a fact that Micky Passo del Lupo (a dog that I personally see many and many times OUTSIDE HIS HOME, ever with the tail under his belly) IS a shy, un-balanced dog, with shy brothers, that made shy sons that made shy nepew...
May be he could have other strong points, but for sure NOT the character.

This thread is NOT about Miky Passo del Lupo !!!
I have seen more of you writing about this dog in this thread, please stop it ! ...even that I am very happy for your input, it is not very constructive to write about this dog and brings no light to the subject which is Italian bonitations.

Please keep an open mind

Greetings Rolf

[Navarre]

Originally Posted by rolf

when you say "almost the same" this is your opinion and not a fact, another opinion could be that they are different, because they are ONLY "almost the same".

OK.Czechs and slovaks have the same rules, italians not.

Originally Posted by rolf

.please correct me if I am wrong

Didn't you ask WHY we should organize (and lose money and time for this) a bonitace ourself when there is a national club for this ?
Did you ask yourself why a bonitace organized in this way rescued so a big success ?
Some dogs that make our bonitace, after some times made italian bonitace because the so-called italian club didn't recognized anymore the slovak and czech bonitaces from the day before the bonitace in Pavia !!!!

So I think all is very clear : italian didn't recognize czech and slovak bonitace and vice-versa.

Originally Posted by rolf

This thread is NOT about Miky Passo del Lupo !!!

I agree. I don't know why hannadina talk about this dog some messages ago...

Originally Posted by rolf

Please keep an open mind

Oh, I try every time.
But the same to you, especially when you talk about things that don't...know so well.

[Juniorwolf]

Originally Posted by Navarre

OK.Czechs and slovaks have the same rules, italians not.

Rules or no rules, NON of these 3 countries(at the moment) do make exactly the same bonitations and this is my point I think Italian bonitation have the same rules as others, but they just don`t perform it in the same way, just like Cz and Sk don`t perform the bonitation in the same way. If you look at earlier posts and also in the thread(differences in bonitations) you will see that Cz and Sk do not value the same in the bonitation and I will repeat my self : Is one difference worser or better than another ? as long as they are not all the same in ALL countries, they are really not compareble. Another of my points is that the character test which they perform differently in Italy, is really worth nothing in ALL 3 countries for a character test, so I don`t see the Italian difference as a big fault who should make Cz and Sk not to recognize the bonitation.

Originally Posted by Navarre

Didn't you ask WHY we should organize (and lose money and time for this) a bonitace ourself when there is a national club for this ?

No I didn`t ask, but I will try to answer anyway ! if you already have a national club for this, then why not use it ? I guess(because I don`t know) that your club is democratic, like the rest of Italy, so why not use your influence as a democratic member(if you are member of this club) to change the way of bonitation, if you have so strong back up from many other members that you stated in an earlier post, it really should be no problem ? or am I missing something ?

Originally Posted by Navarre

Did you ask yourself why a bonitace organized in this way rescued so a big success ?

No ! the size of succes is not interesting for me, what is interesting for me is why the Italian bonitation is not recognized by Cz and Sk, apparently the only difference is in the way of how the character test is performed, when this test is already very close to be woth nothing in Cz and Sk anyway and not even the the Cz and Sk bonitations is performed in exactly the same way, then I really don`t see what all this fuzz is about ?

Originally Posted by Navarre

Some dogs that make our bonitace, after some times made italian bonitace because the so-called italian club didn't recognized anymore the slovak and czech bonitaces from the day before the bonitace in Pavia !!!!

This is why I think it is more importent to work together than to work against eachother.

Originally Posted by Navarre

So I think all is very clear : italian didn't recognize czech and slovak bonitace and vice-versa.

This is a shame for the whole breed, only with cooperation from all parts we can compare the results and I think it is sad if Cz and Sk do not recognize the Italian bonitation and vice-versa, both parts will loose a lot of breeding options in this way, which are not good for a breed with a small genepool.

Originally Posted by Navarre

Oh, I try every time.
But the same to you, especially when you talk about things that don't...know so well.

I surly do keep an open mind, that is why I ask these questions and try not to state facts who really are not facts
I ask these questions only to get more wise on a subject that I really do not understand.

Greetings Rolf

[massimo]

Sorry if I bring back this thread from being buried long time ago but I missed it and as it is being discussed in Italy I couldn't help laughing for some things I read.

1) it seems Italian bonitation as is done today is NOT recognized by Czech and Slovak club.
this has always been said by Margo, in fact on this site the dogs with Italian bonitation do not have a code but an X. I have never heared a direct statement from Czech and Slovak Club stating it however.

2) what does it mean for a czech and slovak club to recognize a bonitation from another country?
As far as I know, please tell me if I am wrong, a bonitation is usefull to know morphological and character defects of a dog.
In CZ and SK, it is fundamental to have a bonitation if you want to breed with a dog.
In other countries, as in Italy, bonitation is not fundamental so we can breed with dogs without bonitation because it is not the csw club who gives pedigree but the main kennel club.
From what I know, if a Czech breeder wants to use a male from another country, this male needs to have the minimum requirements for breeding in his country.
So..if in Italy there are no requirements for breeding, the czech breeder can use an Italian dog WITHOUT bonitation.

Who cares if Italian bonitation is recognized anyway?
Czechs can use a male without bonitation if it is not a requirement in his country!
As for slovak breeders...how many slovak breeders have used czech dogs?? not many....very little...hardly any! If they don't use Czech dogs i would be surprised if they used Italian or other country dogs (unless totally slovak lines of course!)

As for difference between bonitations in different countries....that is what really made me laugh!
I have seen bonitations both in CZ, in SK and in Italy.
How many others have seen all 3? not even Margo...let alone nebulosa or Angelika....so how can you judge?
Saying Italian bonitation is NOT valid because the figurant aggression is not an agression and the dog is not alone is ridiculous.
Saying CZ and SK bonitations are the same is even more ridiculous.
Agression from figurant in SK (and i've seen 3 different bonitations I think) was far from an agression!! It was a person, often a woman, walking towards the dog, often never looking at it in the eyes, waving a stick.
If you don't believe me...there are video recordings of both cz and sk bonitations and I really would like to see who can say it's equivalent.
Of course...the judges are so good they can judge and weigh according to the different level of agression.... but that is subjective and no longer objective.

As for Italian bonitation validity, it seems last valid bonitation made in Italy according to Margo was made by Sonja Bognarova (2004?)
WHY?? also then there was no agression to the dog...and I know because I bonitated my dog in that occcasion. But Sonja was able to judge anyway.
Why should Sonja (my favourite by far!!) be able to judge although there was no agression and not Monika Soukupova or Jindra Jedlichka (my good friends)? maybe because the last two haven't been in the czech club board for a long time and lost their "influence"?

To my eyes...it's all a matter of politics...useless politics which do NOT help the breed.
I personally will only let Sonja Bognarova officially bonitate my dogs, nobody else. Not because i don't trust the others, but because I see less subjectivity in her eyes then others.
massimo

[Hanka]

Hi Massimo,
for who was your questions? I can answer a few your questions, if you want. But only few, because I will not speak about other clubs, countries....
-czech breeder CAN use italian dog, but nobody (mybe 1? ) do it, because we don´t belive italian breeding. We knows about italian kennels, where is something in pedigree and something in reall..... And: people here don´t belive italian results of HD.
-czech breeders use slovak males, because we keep genopool of breed. We want have much males in every bloodgroup. Slovak breeders use czech males only sometimes. Genopool of slovak population is in this moment "before colaps".They lost much "blood". But you must ask about it leadrers of slovak breeding. I have only my personal list of males in every blood group. Not oficial.
- on czech bonitations are figurants more agressiv during test of character- of course. But in second part of test is figurat (or group of people) friendly to dog. Simply- we want see every dog in diferent situations. It is, why dog is in one moment with owner and later without owner. It is level, what we want keep. If some countries have friendly figurant, not our problem.......... But I think, it is not test of character. It is, why we don´t accept results of bonitations from other countries for czech breeding dogs.
And last: I see big diferents between czech bonitations and bonitations in other countries. (Unfortunatelly I have not video).
my english is not so good for explain of all, what I mean, sorry ))

[massimo]

Originally Posted by Hanka

Hi Massimo,
for who was your questions? I can answer a few your questions, if you want. But only few, because I will not speak about other clubs, countries....
-czech breeder CAN use italian dog, but nobody (mybe 1? ) do it, because we don´t belive italian breeding. We knows about italian kennels, where is something in pedigree and something in reall..... And: people here don´t belive italian results of HD.
-czech breeders use slovak males, because we keep genopool of breed. We want have much males in every bloodgroup. Slovak breeders use czech males only sometimes. Genopool of slovak population is in this moment "before colaps".They lost much "blood". But you must ask about it leadrers of slovak breeding. I have only my personal list of males in every blood group. Not oficial.
- on czech bonitations are figurants more agressiv during test of character- of course. But in second part of test is figurat (or group of people) friendly to dog. Simply- we want see every dog in diferent situations. It is, why dog is in one moment with owner and later without owner. It is level, what we want keep. If some countries have friendly figurant, not our problem.......... But I think, it is not test of character. It is, why we don´t accept results of bonitations from other countries for czech breeding dogs.
And last: I see big diferents between czech bonitations and bonitations in other countries. (Unfortunatelly I have not video).
my english is not so good for explain of all, what I mean, sorry ))

Thank you Hanka.
All the facts you wrote correspond to my thoughts.
Your personal ideas do not 100%, but life is wonderful because we are different!
I can show you xrays and measurements of my official HD results...so saying you do NOT believe in Italian HD results is really vague for me.
Look at xrays and judge for yourself or get an expert to do it!

You beileve in Polish, Slovak, Hungarian HD results?

I think it doesn't matter "how hard" the character test is done: a good judge will be able to value the reaction of the dog in ANY case!
That is what Sonja told me and I believe her.

Again...i think it is all a matter of "political affairs and personal dislikes".. with less of this...the breed would be easier to control!

This is a video of last year's bonitation in Hronec (sk)

http://s56.photobucket.com/albums/g1...1273_WMVV9.flv

the dog is Gorbi zlata Palz...the only male dog to get P1...most of the others were penalized because of their character...
Sonja Bognarova was the judge.
http://www.wolfdog.org/eng/bonitations/147.html

[Hanka]

Hi hi, I belive only what I see on my own eyes .
I will not comment this test of character , I prefer a little diferent test.
But it is always the same "problem" a few years. Very different conditions for breeding dogs in all World.
I like czech HD research. The veterinar doctor must write much dates on paperf A4 format and he MUST measure it. Everybody can read much about hips of every wolfdog. I would like all clubs in Evropa will have the same paper for all veterinars in evropa. It can be first step for the same way of researching of HIPs. It is easy.We can copy it and send to all clubs. and: every veterinar send ALL (!!!!) results to oficial club. So nobody can breed without oficial HD.
But you are right : 1000 people has 1000 ideas, because everybody is different.
Have a nice summer. If you will be in Czech, visit me

[Juniorwolf]

Originally Posted by massimo

This is a video of last year's bonitation in Hronec (sk)

http://s56.photobucket.com/albums/g1...1273_WMVV9.flv

Thank you Massimo

To me this proves that one bonitation is not better/worse than another and the whole discussion about which bonitation is valid and which is not, is absolutly useless, as non of the bonitations in the 3 countries in subject are the same.

I can only agree with you that it is all about "political affairs and personal dislikes" ...which is a shame for the breed