Italian bonitations

[mijke]

hhmmmmm... If it is political or not...I think everybody of you are right in a part.. But everybody has to realise there is also a big difference in accepting breed behaviour and dog behaviour in all the different countries!!

In my country we have a new (volunteer) behaviour test: the TOP test and I was on the first try outs with several breeds… It is to complicated to explain what is the all about and what is the difference with the before MAG test. But I can assure you that not one dog that did get P1 or P3 in Bonitation (in consideration behaviour) will succeed for this test!
(by the way I am still doubting to do this test with my CsW with Fo for behaviour in official Bonitation, but till today I am scared what the results means in the TOP test in my country for the CsW breed in future)

The differences in European countries what to accept or not about dogs and what is acceptable dog behaviour is more then huge!!!!
In my crowded country it is simple only normal that you will get a sign of police when your dog is for example only barging in your own garden. When I was the first time in SK, CZ, PL, Hu and Italy , I was surprised that there it was obligated that dogs were guarding there private garden with barking and growling

So how the hell we then can expect that Bonitations and other tests about behaviour and defence of dogs in every European country can be the same and accepted?

I did choose years ago to import a CsW from CZ and not to buy one from Dutch lines (and till today I am still very glad with this, the breeder, and the Reolup line!! )But…… in my country are this kind of CsW’s with a bit explosive, very active and independence behaviour not common…But I like my female very much especially because of her behaviour and her drive to want to do things with me but also because her very open and friendly behaviour to strange and unknown people for her. . (she has a spirit to work, but I admit I use this not enough ) But in Holland I hear a lot of negative comments about this female….. Even one of the owners of her offspring did tell she wants not to breed because this female has “the same bad character as her mother” (explosive, active and always wants to dominate other females)

And when all these kind of things are happening in European countries, why we can think a Bonitation in all countries can be the same and accepted by everyone ????

But don’t misunderstand me… when I did want now to buy as starter a new CsW , the parents should to have at least a good result of a SK or CZ Bonitation result )))))))))))))))

[Juniorwolf]

Originally Posted by Hanka

- on czech bonitations are figurants more agressiv during test of character- of course. But in second part of test is figurat (or group of people) friendly to dog. Simply- we want see every dog in diferent situations. It is, why dog is in one moment with owner and later without owner. It is level, what we want keep. If some countries have friendly figurant, not our problem.......... But I think, it is not test of character. It is, why we don´t accept results of bonitations from other countries for czech breeding dogs.
And last: I see big diferents between czech bonitations and bonitations in other countries. (Unfortunatelly I have not video).
my english is not so good for explain of all, what I mean, sorry ))

Hi Hanka,

Do Czech breeding commitee not accept results of bonitation from Slovakia or is it only from all other countries they do not accept the results ?

Greetings Rolf

[Mikael]

I can not say to mush about the Italian nor the tests in SL or CZ

But this is the MH-test ( Mental Health test) you MUST do whit your CsV before breeding in Sweden...No MH test, No pedigree for your puppies…

There is no Bonitation. (Only) MH test requirement and DNA test to prove the parents of the puppies.

www*youtube*com/watch?v=Am35v-2TURs
www*youtube*com/watch?v=3PQZVQlu62o
www*youtube*com/watch?v=2iCinQ6HKnQ
www*youtube*com/watch?v=tP2tI6d8g88
www*youtube*com/watch?v=G8Ope_lNLGk
www*youtube*com/watch?v=YdMhrMNmPYg


EDIT---

If you want that the links works, its only substitue the red starts * for points .

[BRUCH]

i know only this:

all bonitation in italy are falsed to Sarka Matrasova (Arimminum) in accorded whit fabio caselli (Passo del Lupo).

fabio and sarka are a resboseble tecnic of italian official club

this 2 play a good opion only for for her dogs, and change the helping.

all dog that are not arimminum or passo del lupo take P5 or P14

disgusting


www.lupidelmontale.it

[valentina]

I made the bonitations in CHIGNOLO (PAVIA) with a CZECH CLUB
with italian organization

http://picasaweb.google.it/valentina...88575973305282

http://picasaweb.google.it/valentina...54663464430258

I DO NOT HAVE an ARRIMINUM DOG but misha (my simple dog) take P3

before to talk you must inform you!
I do not know the others Italian bonitations, I write only about my test!

[valentina]

sorry, here the italian thread

http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=7570

[BRUCH]

there are so much photo of sarka's family...you are friend of sarka

sarka manipoled all brain of kid who read on italian forum, come to walk whit his....for her controlled italian forum of wolfdog are very important..controlled a admin...and then people breeding for her...sarka have not dogs...all puppy is maked to family who have arimminum dog.

[massimo]

Originally Posted by BRUCH

i know only this:
all bonitation in italy are falsed to Sarka Matrasova (Arimminum) in accorded whit fabio caselli (Passo del Lupo).
fabio and sarka are a resboseble tecnic of italian official club
this 2 play a good opion only for for her dogs, and change the helping.
all dog that are not arimminum or passo del lupo take P5 or P14
disgusting

Marco,
Sarka Matrasova is no longer in Itailan CSW club already since a couple of years.
http://www.clubcanelupocecoslovacco....utturaammi.htm
as for bonitation votes, these are given by Judge and not by the club technical board members.
Last year there was an official and VERY successful (41 dogs...biggest ever in Italy) bonitation made by Czech Club in Pavia organized also by Sarka Matrasova.

Just for the sake of truth, some stats:
Club Bonitations since 2007: 5
Number of adult dogs bonitated: 27
P1-15, P3-9, P5-1, P14-2

Passo del lupo 13 6xP1, 6xP3, 1xP5
L'amico del lupo 3 3xP1
Ariminnum 3 3xP1
Foresta incantata 2 P1, P3
Z Molu Es 1 P3
Vom Sturmwind 1 P14
Lupi di Monte Morello 1 P1
Al Fiume 1 P1
Lupi dei Camurati 1 P14
"Private" 1 P1

Surely the only P14 were given to NON PDL or Ariminnum dogs, but the other Non Pdl or Ariminnum dogs ALL got P1 or P3.

As for the Czech bonitation in Pavia, it was more successful in one bonitation than the itailan club in the last 3 years.

Number of adult dogs bonitated: 31
P1-19, P3-9, P5-1, P14-0, NV-1

Arimminum 3xP1, 3xP3
Passo del Lupo 2xP3, 1xNV
della vittoria alata 3xP1
Brave Heart P1, P3
Yggdrasill P1, P3
dei Navarri 2xP1
Impronta del Lupo 2xP1
al Fiume P1
Casale Orsetti P5
Colle del Lupo P1
della Lacha P1
Impero del Lupo P1
Maly Bysterec P1
z Blatnických vini P3
z Molu Es P3
z Peronówki P1
Zlata Palz P1
(priv. Avoni) P3

My personal Opinion??
1) Again...by the fact that the main judges of Italian club were Soukupova and Jedlicka and the fact that the Czech club came to Italy to make a bointation it's all a matter of POLITICS and DISLIKES!!
2) That looking at bonitation results, there are not much differences between the two, meaning that in Italy, according to bonitation, we don't have many bad dogs.
3) The CSW population in Italy is one of the highest but the weakest in number of dogs bonitated
4) that there are many many Italian CSW owners who disagree with the Club's way...WHY THE HELL DIDN'T THEY VOTE THEN???
5) I hope there will be another CSW bonitation as successful as the Czech club's one...and I hope the Italian club finally represented the Italian CSW owners...
massimo

[massimo]

MIKAEL: your videos are really interesting but fill up a lot of space; could you edit your post and send a link to each video instead of embedding it in the message?
Please?
massimo

[BRUCH]

sarka ha fatto per anni parte del comitato tecnico...adesso non so

arimminum all p1 ...or p3...strage

i finished

bye


www.lupidelmontale.it

[massimo]

Originally Posted by BRUCH

sarka ha fatto per anni parte del comitato tecnico...adesso non so
arimminum all p1 ...or p3...strage
i finished
bye

Sarka has been part of the club in the past but not since 2007.

If the Italian Club bonitations are not trustable, and neither the Czech ones are...i wonder which ones are!!
massimo

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by massimo

MIKAEL: your videos are really interesting but fill up a lot of space; could you edit your post and send a link to each video instead of embedding it in the message?
Please?
massimo

Yes you are right but sorry I can not edit it as the post is to old to be edit by me, it must now be done by a Moderator...

It is OK by me if any Moderator is willing to put up the links instead of the videos.

Very best regards / Mikael

[woland77]

My english is not very good, i hope Massimo can translate.

Ho assistito e partecipato con i miei soggetti a diverse bonitazioni, di tipo "italiano", "ceco" e "Slovacco". Nel mentre ho contatti nell'ambiente addestrativo con diversi ambienti cinofili i cui si praticano test caratteriali in diverse razze tra cui Dobermann, Bovari delle Fiandre, Pastore Tedesco. Sebbene ogni test caratteriale in qualsivoglia razza possa essere soggetto a critiche, tutti i diversi test caratteriali del CZW a cui o assistito e partecipato presentano delle grosse lacune di concetto che ne invalidano profondamente lo scopo. La mia breve esperienza mi ha portato a non fidarmi di nessun tipo di codice caratteriale di nessuna bonitazione, e mi trovo nel lavoro di scelta dello stallone per la mia femmina, a dover incontrare e conoscere di persona ogni soggetto, il cui carattere trovo spesso in contraddizione con quanto espresso nel codice di bonitazione.
Premettendo che la selezione tecnica deve esprimere un codice utilizzabile nella scelta dei riproduttori, nella fattispecie del carattere, di cosa si compone il valore riproduttivo di un soggetto?
1)componente genetica, 2)capacità evolutive e di miglioramento rispetto a quanto ereditato 3) quanto questo soggetto è in grado di trasmettere geneticamente le sue qualità
Eccezion fatta per il punto tre che può essere stabilito solo sullo studio della progenie, il codice di selezione tecnica dovrebbe essere lo specchio quanto più possibile fedele dei primi due punti affinchè il suo utilizzo abbia un senso cinotecnico. Al di fuori di questi presupposti qualsiasi codice è sterile e vuoto, e questa non è mia opinione ma zootecnia appliacata alla cinotecnica (Robinson, Genetic for Dog Breeder 1990, Leotta, Miglioramento Genetico in Cinologia 2004).
Il test italiano è il CAL1, il conduttore con il cane al guinzaglio si presenta al giudice il cui assistente procede alla lettura del microchip (il comportamento del cane in questa fase è valutato), poi il conduttore attraversa nel campo un gruppo di persone che procede in senso opposto per due-tre volte e vengono esplosi due colpi di rivoltella, alla fine il conduttore si ferma nel gruppo che si è formato a cerchio. Il cane è tenuto ad ignorare il gruppo e non manifestare timore, diffidenze ne agressività. Il conduttore poi applica al cane un guinzaglio di dieci metri al cane e percorre una distanza di circa dieci metri in direzione del revier in cui può mettere in attenzione il cane e prepararlo alla minaccia. Su comando del giudice un figurante esce dal revier e minaccia frontalmente con decisione il cane e il suo conduttore che a questo punto concede corda alla reazione del cane. Il figurante può arrivare fino ad un metro dal cane, non oltre. Il cane non deve in nessun caso indietreggiare e manifestare paura. In nessun caso deve esserci contatto tra il cane e il figurante.
Questo è un test di attitudine al lavoro ritenuto molto valido negli ambienti "lavoristi" italiani, specie Pastore Tedesco e Malinois che in genere lo svolgono in giovane età per accedere alle Classe Lavoro in esposizione, ed il superamento del quale è requisito indispensabile per il consegumento del Campionato di Bellezza.
Ritengo possa essere un test molto valido anche per il CZW qualora esso sia svolto entro un certo limite di età (18-20 mesi), la minaccia venga eseguita a regola d'arte, e il giudizio finale sia conforme a quello per cui la prova è stata studiata, ovvero APPROVATO, NON APPROVATO.
La critica che può essere mossa, dal mio punto di vista, alla selezione tecnica italiana è di fatto la mancanza di senso nell'applicare i vari codici (Oc Oe Og Of) ad una prova studiata per determinare se il cane possiede attitudine al lavoro oppure no. Si può anche sostenere, e io in primis lo sostengo, che le minacce sono troppo morbide rispetto a quanto prevede il regolamento. Ma su tutto, visto e considerato che molti, quasi tutti, preparano il cane a questa prova in campo di addestramento, il suo risultato ha valore zero rispetto al valore riproduttivo del soggetto.
La questione fondamentale del mio intervento è che dal mio punto di vista, anche i test cechi, e slovacchi hanno valore zero rispetto al valore riproduttivo del soggetto, quindi trovo sterile le accuse di invalidità della prova caratteriale italiana che, in se stessa, è una prova molto valida ma mal applicata.
Ho assistito alla bonitazione di tipo slovacco a Heingenbrucken nel 2008. Un soggetto adulto femmina, appena legato al paletto ha comiciato a strillare e piangere verso la padrona che si allontanava andandosi a nascondere a circa 20 m di distanza. Il cane restò legato e proteso verso quella direzione uggiolando e chiamando la padrona. Al primo avvicinarsi inoffensivo del figurante il soggetto a scartato lateralmente in direzione opposta, un pò intimidito restando però in costante attenzione verso il nascondiglio della padrona. Al ritorno sempre pacifico il soggetto ha completamente ignorato il figurante. Al successivo avvicinamento, con minaccia molto blanda coadiuvata di bastone, il cane che ormai aveva compreso l'innocuità del soggetto nonostante la mimica di una minaccia (a cui pochi cani avrebbero creduto) non ha avuto reazioni se non quella di distogliere per un secondo lo sguardo dal nascondiglio della padrona verso il bastone agitato timidamente.
Che indicazioni può dare un simile test? Semplicemente che il cane presenta un maniacale attaccamento al proprietario, talmente forte che ne invalidà qualsiasi altro tipo di considerazione. Se si fosse appesantita la minaccia probabilmente si sarebbe scatenata una reazione di autodifesa (normale per ogni cane, da valutare la soglia di reazione, ma la reazione di autodifesa non può essere considerata coraggio), oppure un totale negarsi,ci sono rari casi di cani, che anche bastonati non reagiscono.
Questo test mi ha dato un responso sul risultato dell'influenza ambientale subita dal soggetto, ma le indicazioni sul genotipo del soggetto sono alquanto generalizzate e scarse, soprattuto se consideriamo che il soggetto fu valutato come Of, ovvero un cane che dovrebbe avere equilibrio e coraggio da vendere, un cane che potrebbe dare qualche risultato anche in Utilità e Difesa. Per me quel cane in quella prova non lo ha dimostrato, in primis perchè la prova non ha permesso di dimostrarlo! Per mia personale opinione, un Czw per avere un codice Of deve affrontare una minaccia cinotecnicamente rispettabile.
Se nella prova Ceca da quello che ho visto, e da quello che mi è stato riferito, la minaccia viene eseguita sempre in modo accettabile, rimane la spinosa questione del paletto. Vedrei più plausibile la prova del paletto svolta come nello ZTP del dobermann, in cui tale prova venne adottata per eliminare dalla riproduzione i soggetti troppo sensibili, reattivi quindi di carattere poco solido (che non vuol dire pauroso). Nello ZTP si valuta l'equilibrio del cane e che questi abbia una soglia ed un equilibrio rispetto all'azione di autodifesa. Ovvero il cane non deve in nessun caso reagire. Ma la prova è ben diversa dal quella nel CZW, il cane non viene mai minacciato.
Il cane viene legato al paletto, e lasciato da solo per almeno 5 minuti in quanto deve avere la percezione di essere solo, scrupolo che non ho visto adottatto ne da cechi ne da slovacchi nella prova del paletto.
Dopo questi 5 minuti il giudice avvicina il cane e a sua discrezione compie dei gesti, anche inconsulti ma mai di minaccia per valutare se il cane da solo è troppo sensibile e nevrile come una pistola pronta a far fuoco per niente. In genere viene aperto un ombrello, fatto cadere il block-notes, tutti gesti un pò improvvisi ma mai direttamente di minaccia. Se il cane reagisce vuol dire che è troppo sensibile e/o insicuro, il cane deve giustamente essere attento all'estraneo, che fa cose strane, ma non reagire in quanto nessuna minaccia è messa in atto. Questo è un'ottima valutazione della soglia di autodifesa, in genere la prima causa della mordacità canina, dell'equilibrio e della solidità di carattere che deve avere un cane da lavoro per standard.
La classica prova del paletto è da una parte inficiata dal fatto che il cane viene minacciato e avvicinato quando il cane è completamente in attenzione verso il padrone, e sa quasi esattamente dove si trovi. Secondo la minaccia del cane da solo tende a portare una reazione di autodifesa (ho visto diversi cani avanzare con i denti di fuori mentre erano da soli, mentre con il proprietario reagivano appena), o un tentativo di fuga. E' sufficiente una minaccia ben eseguita sul cane con conduttore per vedere il coraggio di un cane, qualsiasi tecnico di settore addestramento può affermare ciò!
Altra considerazione è quella che un test caratteriale eseguito su un cane spesso di 2-3 anni (spesso e volentieri preparato alla prova, a prescindere se sia ceco, slovacco o italiano) rende minima la possibilità di valutazione della componente genetica rispetto a quella ambientale/evolutiva, ma sappiamo bene se quest'ultima è preponderante nell'espressione fenotipica, è la prima quella degna di maggior considerazione nella scelta di un riproduttore.
Ultima considerazione è quella che tra tutti gli ambienti del Czw non c'è accordo su cosa deve essere questo cane anche se lo standard qualche indicazione lo da. Se deve diventare (adesso non lo è, ma ne possiede secondo me, enormi potenzialità soprattutto come cane da ricerca e da pista) un cane da lavoro, i test caratteriali devono essere dei test attitudinali o vere prove di lavoro da superare e basta, solo così si raggiungerà lo scopo. Si deve arrivare ad un imbuto in cui passino solo i cani migliormente predisposti in questo senso, sennò è inutile guardare al Czw come a cane da utilità, per come vanno le cose adesso, in qualsiasi paese, non lo diventerà mai, se non in qualche soggetto ben disposto oltre la media che avrà la fortuna di avere anche un padrone che vi si applica per esprimerlo.

[Mikael]

Mabe this will help a bit

Translation Woland´s post

"I witnessed and participated with my subject to different bonitate, type "Italian", "Czech and Slovak." In the meantime I have contacts in different environments with training dogs whose tests are practiced in different character races including Dobermann, Bovara Flemish, German Shepherd. Although each test character in any breed can be subject to criticism, all the different tests of character CzW who witnessed and participated in or have large gaps in concept that it invalidates the very end. My brief experience has led me not to trust any kind of code of any character bonitate and I work in the choice of stallion for my female, having to meet and hear any person subject, the nature of which I find often in contradicts the view expressed in the Code of bonitate.
Premise that the selection technique is to cast a code used in the selection of breeding, in this case the character, what comprises the reproductive value of a player?
1) genetic component, 2) capacity development and improvement than they inherited 3) As this subject is able to transmit its genetic quality
Except for the three that can only be established on the study of the offspring, the code selection technique should be the mirror as faithfully as possible the first two points so that its use makes sense cinotecnico. Outside these assumptions any code is sterile and empty, and this is not my opinion but livestock appliacata to cinotecnica (Robinson, Genetic Dog Breeder for 1990, Leotta, Genetic Improvement in Cinologia 2004).
The test is the Italian CAL1, the conductor with the dog on a leash is the court which shall give the assistant read the microchip (the behavior of the dog at this stage is estimated), then through the conduit in a group of people who carry in the opposite direction for two or three times and are exploded two revolver shots at the end the driver stops in the group has formed a circle. The dog is required to ignore the group and to express fear, distrust agressivité it. The operator then applies to a dog leash to ten meters per dog, and traveling a distance of about ten meters in the direction of the Revier where it can put the dog attention and prepare to the threat. At the command of a judge appearing Revier and leaves the threat head-on with the decision and his dog running at this point allows the rope to the dog's reaction. The shown can be up to a meter from the dog, not beyond. The dog must not retreat and fear expressions. In no case shall there be contact between the dog and set out.
This is a test of aptitude for work considered very valuable in environments Works Italians, especially German Shepherd and Malinois, who usually play it at a young age to have access to Class Work on display, and the overcoming of which is prerequisite for consegumento Championships of Beauty.
I think can be a very good test for CzW even if it is done within a certain age (18-20 months), the threat is carried out in accordance with best practice, and the final assessment is in line with that for which the test has been studied, namely APPROVED NOT APPROVED.
The criticism that can be moved, from my point of view, the technical selection of Italian made no sense in applying the various codes (Oc Oe Of Og) at a test designed to determine whether the dog has attitude to work or no. You can also support, and I support him in the first place, that the threats are too soft compared to the expected settlement. But on the whole, considering that many, almost all, prepare your dog to this test in training camp, the result was zero compared with the reproductive value of the subject.
The key question of my speech is that from my point of view, the test Czechs and Slovaks have zero respect for the reproductive value of the subject, then find sterile allegations of invalidity of proof that the Italian character, in itself, is a he is very good but badly implemented.
I have seen the type bonitate a Slovak Heingenbrucken in 2008. An adult female, once linked to the pole he started to scream and cry to the lady who is going to hide away at about 20 m away. The dog was left tied and out towards that direction uggiolando and calling the owner. At the first sound of approaching the subject contained in discarded laterally in the opposite direction, a little intimidated but remaining constant attention to the hiding place of the mistress. Always return to the ground the subject has completely ignored the appearing. The next approach, with very mild threat of assisted stick, the dog who now understood the safety of the subject despite the gestures of a threat (to which few would have believed dogs) had no reaction but to distract him for a second hiding from the gaze of the lady to stick shaken shyly.
Signs that can give such a test? Simply that the dog has a fanatical devotion to the owner, so strong that it invalid any other type of account. If you have weighed the threat was probably triggered a response of self (normal for any dog, to assess the threshold of reaction, but the reaction of self can not be considered courage), or a total denied, there are rare cases of dogs which do not react well beaten.
This test has given me a lot on the result of environmental changes from the subject, but the signs on the genotype of the subject are fairly generalized and scarce, especially if we consider that the subject was evaluated as Of, or a dog that should have balance and courage for sale, a dog that could also give some results in Utility and Defense. For me, that dog in that trial has not demonstrated, primarily because the evidence failed to prove it! For my personal opinion, a CzW for a Code Of faces a threat cinotecnicamente respectable.
If the Czech evidence from what I saw, and what I was told, the threat is always done in an acceptable manner, there remains the thorny issue of the pole. Would most likely testing the pole as a turning point in the Dobermann ZTP, in which this test was adopted to eliminate the players from playing too sensitive, responsive and lack of solid (which is not to say frightening). ZTP in assessing the balance of the dog and that he has a threshold and a balance in relation to the action of self-defense. Or the dog must not react. But the proof is quite different from that in CzW, the dog is never threatened.
The dog is tied to the pole, and left alone for at least 5 minutes in you should have the feeling that they only care that I have not seen adottatto ne da ne Czechs from Slovaks in the pole test.
After these 5 minutes the judge approaches the dog and in its discretion makes gestures, even rash but never threatened to assess whether the dog is just too sensitive and nevrile like a gun ready to fire at all. Usually opens an umbrella, dropped the block-notes, all a bit sudden gestures but never directly threatened. If the dog reacts to say that is too sensitive and / or insecure, the dog should rightly be careful all'estraneo, which makes strange things, but not to react because no threat is carried out. This is an excellent assessment of the threshold of self-defense, usually the most common cause of canine scathing, of balance and strength of character that should have a dog for working standards.
The classic test of pole is on the one hand by the fact that the dog is being approached and when the dog is completely in focus towards the boss, and knows almost exactly where you are. Under the threat of the dog alone tends to bring a response of self (I have seen several dogs with teeth move out while they were alone, while the owner just reacting), or an attempt to escape. It 'just a threat to the well-run dog with conductor to see the courage of a dog, any technical field training that can be said!
Another consideration is that a character test performed on a dog often of 2-3 years (often prepared to test, regardless of whether it is Czech, Slovak or Italian) make at least the possibility of assessing the genetic component than in the environment / evolutionary, but we know if that is predominant phenotypic expression, the first one is worthy of greater consideration in choosing a player.
Last consideration is that among all circles of CzW there is no agreement on what should be the dog even if the standard some indication from him. If you have to be (now it is not, but I think it has huge potential especially as a dog search and track) a working dog, the character test should be of aptitude tests or tests of real work to overcome it and go, only so we reach the goal. You must get to a funnel where the dogs spend only improvement predisposed to this effect, otherwise it is useless to look to CzW as a utility dog, how are things going now, in any country, will not ever, if not in some subject well-prepared than the average will have the good fortune to have a boss that you apply for conversion."

Regards / M

[valentina]

I think that Massimo wrote right things and I quote him!

there are so much photo of sarka's family...
you are friend of sarka

Marco, have you got problems?
Look my photos (all my photos in picasa) ... you can see that I'm friend of all people .... ALL people with our dogs!

[SERENA]

Sorry for his nonsense talking...is clear to who I am referring!

[Jimma]

Originally Posted by Mikael

I can not say to mush about the Italian nor the tests in SL or CZ

But this is the MH-test ( Mental Health test) you MUST do whit your CsV before breeding in Sweden...No MH test, No pedigree for your puppies…

There is no Bonitation. (Only) MH test requirement and DNA test to prove the parents of the puppies.

www*youtube*com/watch?v=Am35v-2TURs
www*youtube*com/watch?v=3PQZVQlu62o
www*youtube*com/watch?v=2iCinQ6HKnQ
www*youtube*com/watch?v=tP2tI6d8g88
www*youtube*com/watch?v=G8Ope_lNLGk
www*youtube*com/watch?v=YdMhrMNmPYg


EDIT---

If you want that the links works, its only substitue the red starts * for points .

I´m afraid you are now wrong Mikael. The MH stands for Mentally Dog and is only a DESCRIPTION of the dogs reactions. Its NOT a TEST in any way!! Your dog does not even have to go trough with the description to be declared deskribed. Only if the owner decides to quit the test or if the dog shows fear at the moment with the gunshot the dog is declared not correkt MH and is not allowed for breeding. If the describer decides to break the description the dog is still to be declared described. Every breeding club make up they own spiderdiagram that is supposed to help breeders to see where in the spider the dog they want to use in breeding has its instincts. Every breed has its own spider that shows what is WANTED in the breed so you can compare with your breedingdogs results but also what the dog leaves to the puppies. ( when the puppies goes for their MH) An exampel of this spider for collie http://www.vilda-meduza.se/index_a_kullens_spindel.htm. (We dont have this spider for CsV because we dont have a breedingclub yet to work one out.)

In the Swedish workingdogclub they also got an more advanced TEST that is called Mental Test ( MT) and when the dog either has "very good" in dog show or a exterior description from a showjudge AND got an approved Mental Test the dog got the titel "Korad". This Mental test is for the breeds connected to Swedish workingdogclub ONLY!! And they refused the question from SKK of connecting CsV to them...

// Jimma

[davide.c]

@ woland

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6NVx...layer_embedded

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by Jimma

I´m afraid you are now wrong Mikael. The MH stands for Mentally Dog and is only a DESCRIPTION of the dogs reactions. Its NOT a TEST in any way!! Your dog does not even have to go trough with the description to be declared deskribed. Only if the owner decides to quit the test or if the dog shows fear at the moment with the gunshot the dog is declared not correkt MH and is not allowed for breeding. If the describer decides to break the description the dog is still to be declared described. Every breeding club make up they own spiderdiagram that is supposed to help breeders to see where in the spider the dog they want to use in breeding has its instincts. Every breed has its own spider that shows what is WANTED in the breed so you can compare with your breedingdogs results but also what the dog leaves to the puppies. ( when the puppies goes for their MH) An exampel of this spider for collie http://www.vilda-meduza.se/index_a_kullens_spindel.htm. (We dont have this spider for CsV because we dont have a breedingclub yet to work one out.)

In the Swedish workingdogclub they also got an more advanced TEST that is called Mental Test ( MT) and when the dog either has "very good" in dog show or a exterior description from a showjudge AND got an approved Mental Test the dog got the titel "Korad". This Mental test is for the breeds connected to Swedish workingdogclub ONLY!! And they refused the question from SKK of connecting CsV to them...

// Jimma

Hmmmm

Skk decided Saarloos and CsV must do this (test) before breeding, as they are WOLF dogs and not just dogs... it has nothing to do whit if they are workingdogs or not on this breeds...

CsV and Saarloos is under Swedish kennel club and not Swedish Working dog club, yes I know... but last I did her it is still a requirement for both Saarloos and CsV to do this (test)... has anything change ??? As the Working dog club did say NO we do not wont CsV as a Working breed in Sweden yet ( or ever)

I do not understand all you did wrote, but I know one do not have to pass whit a good result to be permitted to breed, you just have to show up and do your best on this (test) and get a result, good or bad...

OK, it is not called (Mental Health test) in English, it is called Mentally dog, but to me it still luck like a test of mentality and you get a result that your puppy buyers might wont to se, or am I wrong ???

I do hope it is still a demand for breeding of CsV, but yes I understand if they will take it away as a demand on Saarloos, but the first litter of Saaroos born this year in Sweden parents had to do it, to get there pedigrees from Skk.
Please correct me if I’m wrong or has misunderstand anything

Yes we do not have a specific MH (test) for CsV yet, I think we must do the GSD (test) ?

Very best regards / Mikael

[Mikael]

EDIT---

If you want that the links works, its only substitue the red starts * for points .

No problems, thanks for your help Nebulosa

Best regards / Mikael