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Old 08-07-2011, 22:54   #1
Nebulosa
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Default Sending a dog to a different continent - Guide for breeders

I opened this topic to serve as guide for those who are contacted by interested people from other continents, mainly Russia, North America and South America
Please read this topic, follow it and respect what is written here, it will help the far-away-from-Europe breeders to select and improve the breed in their countries. It will also help to avoid problems for them with possible vlcaks bred at puppy mills and will help to provide safety to the life of your pup, the amazing and innocent creature that you, the breeder, brought to this world, saw birth and raised till 3 months.

Keep in mind that every importation means for the breeders at that country a possibility to open the lines, to refresh the blood, to introduce new features, to have a new interesting stud without the need to travel as far as Europe to search and attempt to bring a stud. This means that each import is a HUGE opportunity and very important for the breed in that country, even if the owners want a mere pet.

Each country has both positive and negative aspects which may differ strongly from those you're used to. This also includes dog lifestyle and owners’ reactions and responsibilities. Each country has its own cultural differences and unique reality. It means that in some countries if a dog gets abandoned, it will go to a shelter, be neutered and wait with food and safe place until a new human is found for him, while in other places the same dog will have down-counted 3 days of life in a shelter full of dogs without food or water, being put to sleep after the 3 days, often in not such a "nice" way as lethal injections.

There have also been cases when a local responsible breeder refused to sell a pup to the person who is now mailing a European breeder interested to acquire a pup. The local breeder found the potential owner unprepared to have a dog of a hard breed like CSV or does not deserve to have it due to merely commercial interest in the possible future litters with the "new wolfish rare breed", better say, puppy mills.

European breeders, please trust me: what local breeders most wish are new imports to their country, new imports of dogs with interesting blood for THEM, for THAT country. So to have several pups imported from the same kennel with the same bloodline if not the same parents is neither interesting for the reasonable breeders, nor for the country breeding policy. It’s just a waste of great opportunity! For example, why we (Brazilians) would import pup's from close relatives of Jezebeth? Or USA import pup's from a close relatives of Anthea?! It's only an example, of course.

So what should you, as a responsible dog lover and breeder do when someone wants to import a pup from you?

Contact the local breeder of the country in question, ask him if he knows the possible owner and if he could evaluate that person for you.
It's easier to communicate and evaluate someone else in their mother tongue, also it’s easier for the breeder to find information and get tips about that possible owner from other breeders or dog-people. If feasible, the local breeder surely will invite the interested people to meet personally the breed and see their reactions and also to talk with them to have a better idea of who they are. It will later help these people to contact the breeder and have an open talk in case they happen to have hard time with the new dog and when they need help/tips from someone with bigger experience,.

Be sure that the local breeder will be able to rescue your dog if something happen, unless YOU are able to travel and pick him back in time!
If the breeder doesn’t tell you “that's ok” , ask him about the situation. We all know it's hypothetical but it can happen even in the best homes. If the local breeder or his contacts are unable to help the puppy, very probably this would mean a tragic end for the dog. I warn you about it because depending on the place it might be relatively easy for the dog to arrive by plane from outside the country, but very hard for the local breeder to arrive there by air to save the dog in due time. Not all countries have roads everywhere which would make it possible to go by car, as example. If someone sends a dog to Amazonas state, I can get there by car after driving over 4000 km and travelling by ferryboat for over 3 days to arrive in the main city. Do you seriously think the owner of the dog will want to pay for the trip (both are expensive!)? No, I will have to pay it. I will have to find time to travel all the way if I had no luck enough to find an airplane passage which would allow me to bring back the dog. Again, this is only an example, but I want to show you the how complicated it might be to save your dog, should it need help.

Ok, the owner is in your continent, but in different country and there are no local breeders or trustworthy local breeders. What should I do?
The same, contact the closer local breeder you trust and ask him about the hypothetical situation of the necessity to rescue the dog. Depending on the country it will be either easy for the local breeder in question to travel to rescue the dog even by airplane or it will be almost impossible.

And what if my dog is not interesting to the breed in the other country?!
You, as a responsible breeder has made an interesting mate for you, for the future of your kennel and your country as you search for in every litter you do with your females, right?! Why would a responsible breeder find problems in not wasting his work, which will help his country, by sending his pup abroad to a place where the bloodline of his pup will not be of any help or will be useless for the other-country breeding? To a place the breeder will not be able to reach to use this dog in the future, in a place that "if something bad happen" this pup will depend of the good will of someone else to be rescued? An importing possibility is like a gold stone to far-away breeders, it should not be wasted.

This is a very important point, I know some breeders who blindly sell their dogs to other continents only because people there pay better prices for the pups than in the country where the breeder lives. They see the puppies sold to the far-away places as "extra-money", also as a way to "hide" their lack of respect for the breed. They call themselves breeders, but the truth is they are noting more than nice puppy mills which don’t care for the future of their pups

I would like to thanks all those breeders who have already had this conscience and contacted me (and Marcy?) before sending a pup or simply had passed our contacts to the interested people from our country.


I will continue this topic later and improve it with the help of the users
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Last edited by Nebulosa; 11-07-2011 at 06:22.
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Old 08-07-2011, 23:17   #2
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Thank you Nebulosa, very wise advice
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Old 08-07-2011, 23:23   #3
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it's not about america only, but about russia too hope breeders read your post
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Old 08-07-2011, 23:31   #4
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it's not about america only, but about russia too hope breeders read your post
Added Russia at the topic, I will keep improving it using also the replies.

I hope the breeders will read it and respect the tips also, at least now will start to make clear to people who breed seriously and care for the breed and the future of the pups and who send them blindly only for win extra-money.
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Old 08-07-2011, 23:36   #5
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oh, paula... i'm afraid russia already deserves it's own topic. we have very tragic situation with the breed, and it's partly provoked by irresponsible european breeders
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Old 08-07-2011, 23:41   #6
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I'd also add the necessity to sign a detailed contract indicating clearly the obligations and duties of the breeder and owner in order to protect the puppy legally.The contract should also include the contingency plan + details about additional expences if something went wrong. Even if it turned hard or impossible to make the breeder or owner fulfil the agreed obligations, at least it would be clear who and where failed.

Why not put on wolfdog.org sample agreements/contracts suitable for various countries prepared by local breeders? Should a breeder want to send a pup to a specific country, he would have great help. Local breeders could anticipate situations of which the breeder wouldn't even think of
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Old 08-07-2011, 23:49   #7
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Make new perspective owners join WD and read their language's forum first.
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Old 08-07-2011, 23:51   #8
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Make new perspective owners join WD and read their language's forum first.
all? how?
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Old 08-07-2011, 23:51   #9
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Originally Posted by Nebulosa View Post
Added Russia at the topic, I will keep improving it using also the replies.

I hope the breeders will read it and respect the tips also, at least now will start to make clear to people who breed seriously and care for the breed and the future of the pups and who send them blindly only for win extra-money.
maybe be good make a list breeders who make this without control and brain, when they not read this or if read say one wort- "YOU JELOUS"?
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Old 09-07-2011, 00:00   #10
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all? how?
I'm just joking..

But it would be nice to encourage, at least.
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Old 09-07-2011, 00:01   #11
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ah well... i was thinking, you know the way to do it
but seriously the main problem is that majority of russians interested in csv don't speak any foreign language, so it's not easy to find info. but now we make an informative site about the breed in russian where we're going to publish club show results from all around the world, also results of bonitations and svp exams. and of course many articles about the breed, how to choose pups etc.

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Old 09-07-2011, 12:39   #12
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Thank you Paula for the tips to breeders, which are by the way good for prospective buyers too, to see if the breeder they contacted is responsible or just wants to get rid of the pups.

But I don't completely agree with you on one toic - you write it is not good to import pups from line that already exists. Of course it is better to increase the number of lines, but on the other hand, you don't want to have only one stud in each line. Even in the lines you should have some genetic variability. An when you import puppy you never know what will happen - the one that comes might for example miss a tooth, have bad character, etc., so it is better to have possibilities. No material is truly lost if used with great care, in the opposite, using a stud which is not of a good quality and not importing other pup instead from the same line can cause more damage for the breed, don't you think?
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Old 09-07-2011, 13:32   #13
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Originally Posted by saschia View Post
Thank you Paula for the tips to breeders, which are by the way good for prospective buyers too, to see if the breeder they contacted is responsible or just wants to get rid of the pups.

But I don't completely agree with you on one toic - you write it is not good to import pups from line that already exists. Of course it is better to increase the number of lines, but on the other hand, you don't want to have only one stud in each line. Even in the lines you should have some genetic variability. An when you import puppy you never know what will happen - the one that comes might for example miss a tooth, have bad character, etc., so it is better to have possibilities. No material is truly lost if used with great care, in the opposite, using a stud which is not of a good quality and not importing other pup instead from the same line can cause more damage for the breed, don't you think?
we have similar situation like Paula about import- when we buy a puppy from others country - Slovakia example we buy one from one litter and next from others. WHEN like you say puppy not go to breed we later buy new dog with this blood, but not import in this same time this same bloods or parents pupps from this same liters, when this not important to much have 2-3 puppy with this same blood in this same time. and we have easy situation only 1200 km to SK. no waters like Paula

see in Russia they have about 40 CSV ( I not member good ) but blood line ... are two or 3 only when are breeders who send all puppy from this same litters ( example 5 females from this same litters who have in this time), - about who good genetic we can speak in this time, when not are dogs who can go to breeding when are sister- brother and this same blood. I think about this better say Morian
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Old 09-07-2011, 13:47   #14
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yes, I agree that it is not good to have most animals in one line. But that doesn't mean that import of puppy of line which is already there is always a waste. I didn't mean to contradict.
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Old 09-07-2011, 13:51   #15
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Originally Posted by saschia View Post
yes, I agree that it is not good to have most animals in one line. But that doesn't mean that import of puppy of line which is already there is always a waste. I didn't mean to contradict.
aha when old line dogs you mas "hunting" when very smal breeders have this and hard becam puppy from this ( like litter with Arek ). Others is easer to buy when are moore litters with this same blood.
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Old 09-07-2011, 14:23   #16
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see in Russia they have about 40 CSV ( I not member good ) but blood line ... are two or 3 only when are breeders who send all puppy from this same litters ( example 5 females from this same litters who have in this time), - about who good genetic we can speak in this time, when not are dogs who can go to breeding when are sister- brother and this same blood. I think about this better say Morian
this problem is not in the number of puppies sold or their lines, if they were sold as pets - why not? but when breeder x sells 7 pups at once, 4 from them are in the same kennel (non fci by the way with very questionable reputation), 1 pup to one more kennel which owns also non fci wolfdogs, which is a puppy (and kitten...) mill... i don't want to tell about these two kennels, but i'm sure and many people reading russian forum can confirm that breeder x had info or could have it before selling pups. by the way, breeder x had really tragic expirience with selling pups to russia some years ago. but money can force to forget it all, yes and this is only one example, there are many more.
i can only say that european breeders must sign strict contracts with russians which are going to breed csv here - the contract should oblige them to have hd and ed evaluation, dm tests, bonitaion etc. we have no club here, somebody must take care, this is a matter of conscience in the face of the breed we all love and take care of.
we found a way to improve this situation here, but we need the same attitude and support from the european breeders.
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Old 09-07-2011, 15:50   #17
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this problem is not in the number of puppies sold or their lines, if they were sold as pets - why not? .
sale like pets to Russia??? not imposible
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Old 10-07-2011, 01:49   #18
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Originally Posted by saschia View Post
But I don't completely agree with you on one toic - you write it is not good to import pups from line that already exists. Of course it is better to increase the number of lines, but on the other hand, you don't want to have only one stud in each line. Even in the lines you should have some genetic variability. An when you import puppy you never know what will happen - the one that comes might for example miss a tooth, have bad character, etc., so it is better to have possibilities. No material is truly lost if used with great care, in the opposite, using a stud which is not of a good quality and not importing other pup instead from the same line can cause more damage for the breed, don't you think?
That's why I wrote it:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nebulosa
then is not interesting for the breeding of the country in questions to have several pups imported from the same kennel with the same bloodline if not the same parents! For exemple, why we (brazilians) would import pup's from close relatives of Jezebeth? Or USA import pup's from a close relatives of Anthea?! it's only an exemple
One exemple, Ł z peronówki was a very interesting litter, linebreeding in D Kollarov Dvor, but not for me, as it comes by J. z Peronówki with Bonie z Mrazive Ticho, a female I really like, but which I dont wish to make linebreeding, her blood I have by Oskar.

I try to avoid dogs with A Reolup, as it is what we could already call a common blood at the breed itself, I have this blood here by several dogs, but I will not give up to bring more of such blood together with interesting diferent bloods or important lines, as it's not hard to happen, less A.Reolup & similares we have here "for nothing", better as it will let place for "interesting dogs with this blood as well", and that's also why Ł z Peronowki entered as "non interesting litter" FOR ME.

I took Ł z Peronówki as exemple because I know the breeder is open minded also as the breeders who have these dogs, and that they will not get angry or say Im doing "bad advertizement of their blood because im jealous" and "because their dogs are perfect, PERFECT for everyone and for every country" (Ie. they are not blind), but I can make a list of the last years with "interesting litters which wasnt interesting for me" because of this.

Lets see another exemple, A Pura Gioia litter, it was an very interesting litter for us as well, no A Reolup in it, with Baron Spod Dumbiera (which we have by jezebeth, but he came in a quite different connection) as Iran Zemplinska Oblast ( which we have the dog itself here, but also cames in a quite different connection and also at the back of the pedigree) and much more bloods I would be glad to have more to use in linebreeding.
Then, these different conections woudl add something new to our breeding, even is we talk only about the linebreeding possibilities.

It's when we are talking about rational and serious breeders, which will sell one pup of the litter to someone, not about the "Whole sellers" which are able to sell 3 or 4 pups, even the whole litter to the same owner.
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Old 11-07-2011, 09:29   #19
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Originally Posted by Morian View Post
i can only say that european breeders must sign strict contracts with russians which are going to breed csv here - the contract should oblige them to have hd and ed evaluation, dm tests, bonitaion etc. we have no club here, somebody must take care, this is a matter of conscience in the face of the breed we all love and take care of.
we found a way to improve this situation here, but we need the same attitude and support from the european breeders.
But do these contracts work internationally? Even in our own country we sign contracts, that are nearly meaningless For example, usually it is written, what does buyer have to fulfill before breeding a dog, but it does not speak about what will happend if he won't

Do we have any lawyers here?
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Old 11-07-2011, 11:41   #20
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Do we have any lawyers here?
surely this is not me, so i can't answer your question but i think it's possible to do a contract which would work internationally
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