wolf percentage

[Mirkawolf]

Originally Posted by tikaani

hi i understand about the wolf blood never leaving the blood line but if defra looked at it like that we wouldnt be aloud any dogs over here, what im lookin for is a hyperthetical responce kinda. like if the bood percentage is 50/50 the next generation is 25 etc, this is how defra do it not my idea. but tecnicaly after a certain amount litters the percentage would be 0, would it not? and if that is so, tecnicaly we would be aloud them over here

But, the thing is, technically you are ALLOWED to have them there!
Perhaps breeding is a different issue, I do not know about that, because I think my husband was more asking about the problem of actually bringing CSW into UK and having it there. Not sure if he asked about breeding, too.

[Rona]

Originally Posted by tikaani

hi i understand about the wolf blood never leaving the blood line but if defra looked at it like that we wouldnt be aloud any dogs over here, what im lookin for is a hyperthetical responce kinda. like if the bood percentage is 50/50 the next generation is 25 etc, this is how defra do it not my idea. but tecnicaly after a certain amount litters the percentage would be 0, would it not? and if that is so, tecnicaly we would be aloud them over here

To obtain such hypothetical dissapearance of wolf genes you'd need to breed CSV with ordinary dogs.... So carry on: 50/50, 25/75, 12,5/87,%, 6,25/93,25 ... etc. Pure maths, isn't it?

Just to find out in the end that any dog's DNA differs from wolf's DNA by 1% or something like this.

But in this case we don't talk of CSV breeding any more, because a CSV pup must be born from CSV parents.

[Rona]

Originally Posted by Rona

To obtain such hypothetical dissapearance of wolf genes you'd need to breed CSV with ordinary dogs.... So carry on: 50/50, 25/75, 12,5/87,%, 6,25/93,25 ... etc. Pure maths, isn't it?

Sorry, I made a mistake. The highest wolf genes amount in CSV is around 30%, so you need to start from 30/70

[Hanka]

I think, wolfdogs have not over 30%.

[Angelika]

simple question - simple answer:
a csw with 32 % who is mated with a csw having 28 % do have pups 32 % + 28 % = 60 % : 2 = 30 %.
If this "child" of 30 % will be mated with another csw of 34 % = 64 % : 2 = 32 %.

So again you will never reach zero.

cheers
Angelika

[Angelika]

Originally Posted by Mirkawolf

And surprise surprise, they say there is no problem with CSW in UK! They told him they do realise, CSW is a breed and they have no problem with the dogs comming to UK or staying.

Very interesting - thank you, Mirka

[Rona]

Originally Posted by Angelika

simple question - simple answer:
a csw with 32 % who is mated with a csw having 28 % do have pups 32 % + 28 % = 60 % : 2 = 30 %.
If this "child" of 30 % will be mated with another csw of 34 % = 64 % : 2 = 32 %.

I think two issues are being mixed here:
1. the genetics
2. the distance from the last "fresh" wolf blood insertion, which has nothing to do with genetic calculations or percentages.

I don't belive people in DEFRA are that ignorant as to think that after 100 generations of matching CSV with CSV the GSD's genes would be earased from them, so why should the wolf's be? Maybe they think that if for several generations the dogs "behaved themselves" it would mean the 'wilderness' in them was tamed, but this argument is even more absurd in the light of the possibility of breeding "dangerous" breeds and the fact that even the Yorshire terrier may be a wild beast if badly socialised and treated.

I think DEFRA people don't want to legitimize the breed for totally different reasons, which I think I understand now better than before.

Still, it has nothing to do with allowing CSVs to travel to or to live in the UK to which there are no barriers other than for other breeds/dogs.

[Angelika]

Originally Posted by Rona

I think two issues are being mixed here

Sure, Rona, you are right (as always ), but I think this is what tikaani wants to know. Maybe I´m wrong.

kind regards
Angelika

[Pavel]

Whole "wolfblood percentage" counting is absolutelly stupidity, because it says NOTHING. Its like you counting settlement density in country and you are supriced, that average density is 12 people/sqkm and you dont see so much people in forrest. "Wolfblood percentage" is pure aritmethic number. Have nothing to do with breed.
Rona write it correct. Every dog have some percentage of wilf animal, from which came in the past. But nobody can conting it, because is not the dates. Maybe some boxers or shitzu have more "wildblood percentage", than CsW, but nobody can counting it. And clearly mathematic - all dogs have 100% "wildblood", because dogs came not through crossing wild animals with some space creatures, but all dogs came from domestication wild animals only. This is differency between "domestication" and "wilfblood counting", whats many people dont want understand.

[Rona]

Originally Posted by Angelika

Sure, Rona, you are right (as always ), but I think this is what tikaani wants to know. Maybe I´m wrong.

Angelika, to tell you the truth, I still don't know what tikaani wants to know: whether wolf's genes will ever disappear from CSVs, if CSVs are allowed to live in the UK or if/when DEFRA will legitimize the breed and open stud books for CSVs in the UK..

Tikanni, I'm afraid only DEFRA is in a position to answer the last question, and I doubt if they're willing to.

[tikaani]

Originally Posted by Rona

Angelika, to tell you the truth, I still don't know what tikaani wants to know: whether wolf's genes will ever disappear from CSVs, if CSVs are allowed to live in the UK or if/when DEFRA will legitimize the breed and open stud books for CSVs in the UK..

Tikanni, I'm afraid only DEFRA is in a position to answer the last question, and I doubt if they're willing to.

after chating to local council about the mater, there opinion is that thay have no guidelines for this mater and that as it would be to hard to prove that there was wolf blood in them if they dint know about them then they wont do anything about it. they also sead that some one needs to get there finger out and supply a guide line on this breed to defra and get all councils to follow the same guide lines. they seemed quite excited about the cwd ( in a good way ) and sead if there were more over here then we would have more chance to get them legalised over here. Very nice man. thanks for all the possitive and negative info you all have supplied.

[Mikael]

Hello

according to how thay count in the US, GSD has 0% Wolfblood.
Mixing Wolf = 100% Wolfblood whit GSD = 0% gives a Hybride (F1)on 50% Wolfblood.

If mixing this Hybrid whit a GSD you have 50% + 0% / 2 = 25% Wolfblood on generation 2 (F2).

If DEFRA wonts to count like thay do in the US generaton 5 (F5) in the year 1989 when FCI allowed the breed international was only 1,56% Wolfblood.

Maby this Mathematical system can be used by DEFRA to

Best Regards / Mikael

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by Pavel

Whole "wolfblood percentage" counting is absolutelly stupidity, because it says NOTHING. Its like you counting settlement density in country and you are supriced, that average density is 12 people/sqkm and you dont see so much people in forrest. "Wolfblood percentage" is pure aritmethic number. Have nothing to do with breed.
Rona write it correct. Every dog have some percentage of wilf animal, from which came in the past. But nobody can conting it, because is not the dates. Maybe some boxers or shitzu have more "wildblood percentage", than CsW, but nobody can counting it. And clearly mathematic - all dogs have 100% "wildblood", because dogs came not through crossing wild animals with some space creatures, but all dogs came from domestication wild animals only. This is differency between "domestication" and "wilfblood counting", whats many people dont want understand.

Yes it is stupidety to count Wolf Blood I agree, and so does most of the breeders to.

But way do you have it on the Planned Litter then ??? comfusing buyers ???
especially when it ses "Data not available" or "Only fore Registred users.

In the text on this site it ses that it is a Hybrid mix from the begining, but nothing about that the hybrid after this was crosst only whit GSD from generation F2-F5 intill FCI allowed the breed as CsV in 1989, or am I wrong ???

If you would write this in the HISTORY maby people / gowerments don´t have to ask or worry about the Woof Blood ? less try to count ?

Swedish Kennel Club had exactly this argument to not allow the breed in there pedigee book fore years "it ses on the international website that it is a Hybid mix."

Best Regards / Mikael

[Rona]

Originally Posted by Mikael

Yes it is stupidety to count Wolf Blood I agree, and so does most of the breeders to.
But way do you have it on the Planned Litter then ??? comfusing buyers ???
especially when it ses "Data not available" or "Only fore Registred users.

As it was mentioned several times earlier in some other threads, the idea of putting the wolfblood percentage was mainly for fun, more out of curiosity rather than anything else. Probably also because it was possible to calulate it for each single CSV. But there is no reason to treat it as an argument for or against the breed or find it more exciting than e.g. Wright's coefficient...

Przemek, I suggest that when reconstruting the database, instead putting the wolfblood, you should put the GSD blood percentage. People with the Little Red Riding Hood syndrom will probably not even notice it and the CSVs owners will still have their 'gadget'

Originally Posted by Mikael

In the text on this site it ses that it is a Hybrid mix from the begining, but nothing about that the hybrid after this was crosst only whit GSD from generation F2-F5 intill FCI allowed the breed as CsV in 1989, or am I wrong ???

Oh, come on Mikael.... How many times has it been written on this forum, that CSV are not hybrids but dogs, let alone this thread!!! A few posts earlier I wrote that in any CSV wolf genes will never be higher than around 30% and Hanka confirmed this.... I know there are people who have the habit of reading only the last post in a thread and replying to it, but I don't think that's our problem...

Originally Posted by Mikael

Swedish Kennel Club had exactly this argument to not allow the breed in there pedigee book fore years "it ses on the international website that it is a Hybid mix."

Maybe Swedish Kennel Club should employ people who are more internet literate and bother to read the history of the breed (top left part of the screen, next to breed standard) before making any official statements?...

[Mirkawolf]

Originally Posted by Rona

Maybe Swedish Kennel Club should employ people who are more internet literate and bother to read the history of the breed (top left part of the screen, next to breed standard) before making any official statements?...

Even better, Swedish Kennel Club should employ people smart enough to contact the breed clubs of Czechoslovakian wolfdog in the countries of origin, when in doubts about the origin of the breed or its history.
To make statements or impose laws on a dog breed on the basis of what is written on somebody´s private website is totally ridiculous!

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by Rona

Oh, come on Mikael.... How many times has it been written on this forum, that CSV are not hybrids but dogs, let alone this thread!!! A few posts earlier I wrote that in any CSV wolf genes will never be higher than around 30% and Hanka confirmed this.... I know there are people who have the habit of reading only the last post in a thread and replying to it, but I don't think that's our problem...


Maybe Swedish Kennel Club should employ people who are more internet literate and bother to read the history of the breed (top left part of the screen, next to breed standard) before making any official statements?...

Don’t worry Rona I know

And I can agree that the Swedish Kennel Club did not wont to find out, but if they would read the History they would not have find out that the CsV are mostly GSD would they ???

And Rona seriously do you really think that a government can make a decision after have red something on a Forum, they need Facts not Gossip.

And if it say it clearly in the History, way do people from England ask you think ??? Thay know rather god English I believe.

And way do you think that the Clubs or Governments in Norway, Sweden and England have hard to find this Facts ???

It’s pretty easy to write nowadays CsV Wolf Blood is well under 30 %, or ???

And I’m enormously curious hove they counted when they decided CsV was between 25-30% Wolf Blood ???

I have met pure Hybrids on both 50 % and 75 % Wolf Blood, and believe me its more than a normal CsV owner can handle, compered to those Hybrids CsV are in my eyes not more then a dog whit a very little % Wolf Blood, maybe not more than 5-10% or 90-95% GSD if you prefer.

Very Best Regards / Mikael

[Rona]

Originally Posted by Mirkawolf

Even better, Swedish Kennel Club should employ people smart enough to contact the breed clubs of Czechoslovakian wolfdog in the countries of origin, when in doubts about the origin of the breed or its history.

I'm afraid you're expecting too much from people who think that with time genes mixed with similar genes will disappear from the genotype ...

[Rona]

Originally Posted by Mikael

And Rona seriously do you really think that a government can make a decision after have red something on a Forum.

No, I don't. I think the authorities in your country, in Norway and the UK do not want to legitimise the breed for totally different reasons, which are hard to be formulated in legal terms. It's easier for them to use artificial arguments about wolfblood and play "fools" in genetics, than admit openly: "we're afraid that CSV breeding might fall into hands of dishonest & irresponsible, greedy people, "wolf maniacs" who will start producing unpredictable wolf hybrids and our country will start having problems similar to those there are in the US". No institution could make an official statement like this, i.e. accuse the citizens of POTENTIAL dishonesty and ill will.

Originally Posted by Mikael

It’s pretty easy to write nowadays CsV Wolf Blood is well under 30 %, or ???
And I’m enormously curious hove they counted when they decided CsV was between 25-30% Wolf Blood ???

It was explained earlier - this is pure maths. Nothing to do with the dogs' behaviour or features of character. Almost every dog can be matched with a wolf, so their genotypes must be very much alike. Exactly like Pavel, I don't understand WHY this unfortunate wolfblood percentage causes so much excitement! The authorities should be more concerned with the problems of dogs bred for dog fighting or mistreated by their owners.

Originally Posted by Mikael

I have met pure Hybrids on both 50 % and 75 % Wolf Blood, and believe me its more than a normal CsV owner can handle, compered to those Hybrids CsV are in my eyes not more then a dog whit a very little % Wolf Blood, maybe not more than 5-10% or 90-95% GSD if you prefer.

I agree. But where is the problem then? 30% or 5% - does it matter at all if ALL dogs are 99% wolfish?

Personally I'm internally convinced CSVs are a few-percent wolves in behaviour and 70-75% or even more in appearance
Who dares to disagaree with me?

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by Rona

But where is the problem then? 30% or 5% - does it matter at all if ALL dogs are 99% wolfish?

Personally I'm internally convinced CSVs are a few-percent wolves in behaviour and 70-75% or even more in appearance
Who dares to disagaree with me?

Yes that is what I think to, but there is a problem state that CsV are up to 30 % Wolf, sens people know aboute the problems whit 50% Wolf Hybrids is US and Canada.

The Norwegian and English governments used a report from the US and compared Saarloos and Cs Wolfdogs whit the Hybrids in the US, and certain Wolfdogs was up to 98% Wolf, but in this report they call all Hybrids and High content Wolfdogs only "Wolfdogs", and sens (we) say CsV are up to 30% Wolf now CsV and Saarloos are not allowed there any more.

There fore counting Wolf Blood is not fore fun in my eyes

Regards / Mikael

[GalomyOak]

In our country, and more specifically, states, there has been the struggle of what the legal definition of a wolfdog, or wolf hybrid is. Some states continue to outlaw hybrids, but I know from speaking to a family in one of those states, the government allows the CSV, since it has documentation that it is a dog. My state (Virginia) leaves it to the city or county to govern hybrids - you must have an exotic animal permit (and meet health/safety requirements) to legally keep a hybrid (of course, many are kept illegally in the US, though not in my city). I am NOT required to have a permit for our CSVs...they are registered DOGS.

Part of the question for the US government, or court, or animal control officer I think is: Who determines what a dog is - the kennel club, a veterinarian, green aliens from spaceships? I think our governments are smart (in this tiny instance) to recognize that there are organizations with more knowledge than themselves (such as AKC, or a veterinarian) to know what a dog is. Our AKC reciprocates registry with the FCI - if FCI calls it a dog, so does the AKC. The FCI called the CSV a dog in 1982, then AKC trusts, it is a dog (we just don't have enough CSVs here yet to have full AKC breed recognition). Dog x dog = 100%dog
Just in case our government had any questions, they look to the American Humane Society, who says anything after F5 is a dog - our dogs are several generations past...

Our new neighbors through the forest are not so easy to convince!

I think our breed is just very honest about our "roots", for better or worse - all breeds, if you go back in the history many decades or hundreds or thousands of years, would say a wolf was crossed with dog, or humans selected traits of wolves to use...blah, blah, blah - this history is not as important to other breeds as what queen owned it first, etc. Obviously in terms of conformation and purpose, the wolf was an important component to our CSVs - but the component, through the art and science of breeding has been controlled to only the "usable" qualities..