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Old 29-11-2010, 20:11   #21
hanninadina
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Can somebody explain me, why he is now "non FCI (Mix)"?

Both parents are fci. I know that sometimes ago, the parents were other names, the female I think was it.
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Old 29-11-2010, 20:13   #22
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Can somebody explain me, why he is now "non FCI (Mix)"?

Both parents are fci. I know that sometimes ago, the parents were other names, the female I think was it.
he are "NON FCI" not "MIX".

in forum are thema about this - read explanation from admin.
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Old 29-11-2010, 23:43   #23
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Originally Posted by hanninadina View Post
Can somebody explain me, why he is now "non FCI (Mix)"?

Both parents are fci. I know that sometimes ago, the parents were other names, the female I think was it.
It was a mistake corrected by Admin.

The parents were FCI but were highly inbred, very young and without breeding rights when the pups were born. Later one of them recieved P14 on bonitation, so the litter could not have been registered officialy in Slovakia. Wilk was the only pup that survived from the whole litter. There was an attempt to register his pedigree in Italy, but it seems it was never completed, thus the dog is non-FCI in the database.

In the light of the conversation about Iran Z.O. (one of the dogs least connected with Rep) Wilk would have been even more valuable for breeding. Iran is/was? his double grandfather.
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Old 30-11-2010, 08:52   #24
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In the light of the conversation about Iran Z.O. (one of the dogs least connected with Rep) Wilk would have been even more valuable for breeding. Iran is/was? his double grandfather.
Would he? He was born from the accidental (and I really hope it was accidental, for the breeder's sake) mating of half-siblings, both before bonitation age. Would we want to do the same that was done with Rep, but without the causes, and without the benefits that Rep brought to the breed?
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Old 30-11-2010, 13:21   #25
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Would he? He was born from the accidental (and I really hope it was accidental, for the breeder's sake) mating of half-siblings, both before bonitation age. Would we want to do the same that was done with Rep, but without the causes, and without the benefits that Rep brought to the breed?
OK. You're right, he wouldn't. I'm not a breeder and agree with all what breeders tell me.
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Old 30-11-2010, 18:42   #26
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Originally Posted by saschia View Post
Would he? He was born from the accidental (and I really hope it was accidental, for the breeder's sake) mating of half-siblings, both before bonitation age. Would we want to do the same that was done with Rep, but without the causes, and without the benefits that Rep brought to the breed?
And because both parents were without bonitation at that age that a dog like Wilk must be not used, and if he get lost, well no one cares, after all the parents had no bonitation and he come from a INBREEDING (such horrible word).
No one cares if he would be great to open lines, without lost wolfish features, thing that Slovak club already tried by using Czech dogs and so far I know it mostly wasn't a good experience.


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Originally Posted by Elf
Exactly, Wilk/Hamlet --- Radov Dvor--- would be a very interesting dog for diversity, he is in the top O,8% living CSV regarding mean kinship.
Well, no one cares for it, both parents had no bonitation and that's all.
Besides, who cares for genetic?
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Old 30-11-2010, 21:58   #27
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Paula, it is not because the parents did not have bonitation only. It is because it was a very bad breaking of a lot of rules, it was because it was hushed up till the last minute by the breeder, it is because it was brother and sister, where the brother was a pup still and so we couldn't even know what defects he will have (and he grew up to have many), and if we would give papers to such puppies than I really don't know why not give papers to everything that has four legs and says Woof.

I don't know why a lot of people here make some kind of half-god from Hron RD. First thing - if you really want to breed with him, there is a way. Second thing - he has a sister who passed a bonitation and other things and can have legal puppies, and she is the same blood. The Y chromosome doesn't carry anything that important...

Inbreeding is not a horrible word, after all, all the CSWs are inbred in their ancestry, but is is horrible to say it doesn't matter that this puppy is an inbred accident but he should get papers because he is a SON OF HRON RD.
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Old 30-11-2010, 23:44   #28
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Paula (Nebulosa), I care for genetics and I have to agree with you. From a genetic point of view Wilk/Hamlet is most certainly very special; through advancing insight and despite the fact that several rules were broken. He's inbred from a very uncommon line, with a extremely auspicious position in the Mean Kinship ranking (he's in the top O,8% living CSV regarding MK). That makes him theoretically very useful to maintain the (ever narrowing) gene pool.

Descendants of many hypothetical breeding combinations with him, will know a low COI, very below average (measured on all generations). Almost impossible to achieve nowadays with other Csv's. All this, of course, except for possible genetic defects present, which certainly should be considered.

The comparison with Rep is not correct: Rep caused a massive inbreeding in all lines in a very early stage of the development of the breed, with a sharp reduction of the gene pool as a result. Wilk/Hamlet however, might just be itself highly inbred, but at the same time can give a very positive contribution to the fragile gene pool as it evolved nowadays almost 30 years after Rep; that makes it significant different. The possible use of him could almost be regarded as a kind of outcrossing, which is very special to mention in the closed population.

I think he's breath taking from the pictures. Most importantly however, is that I hope he currently has a good home, wherever he may be. All together, I have my doubts about that .... Especially since the last owner wraps in silence, while she too is the subject of speculations.

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Old 01-12-2010, 15:00   #29
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buidelwolf, I cannot agree with you. I agree that higly inbred animals from some relatively Rep-free lines might be very valuable for breeding, although there may be some arguments against this particular line, but I am not going into that. My argument is not that such animal is not correct to use, my argument is that it is incorrect to use Hamlet. Why? For the same reason why it was incorrect to try to introduce new wolf blood to CSW through Mutaras. This is a thing that requires planning, and selection of the animals to use to create such inbred studs. And that was missing from both Hamlet and Mutaras. It is still possible to create inbreds, even from the same animal, in better conditions, but at least now we will know about what we are bringing into the population, not a complete unknown as Hron was when he mated his sister. Now we at least know that he has bad legs, long tail, darker eye (the tail and eye are of course minor) and bad character (and don't argue about upbringing, his sister Hena had the same conditions but was able to pass the bonitation on the same day as Hron was not) and we can, if we decide to, use a bitch that would compensate.

I too wish Hamlet good home, after all, the quality of the home should not depend on the papers, but I cannot agree that he was supposed to obtain the papers just because of his lineage.
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Old 04-01-2014, 10:33   #30
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Just to update the topic: Hamlet (Wilk) was found stray in the woods in central Poland. He was in a poor condition and walked with a limp. Nobody knew how long he had lived on his own, neither anybody claimed him back
The person who spotted him managed to convince the dog to approach her. He kept visiting her home and eventually stayed with her and her family. The vet read his chip number and only then his identity was disovered. X-rays showed that a pellet was disturbing the movement of Hamlet's hip. (Seems somebody tried to shoot him). Funds were raised for his operation which eased his movement and probably relieved pain. Later he was castrated and now seems to be a happy and joyful dog.

The person who offered him a temporary home advertised him for adoption, but if no good home is found she declared she'd keep him. He's now about 6,5 years old and seems a really nice male.

Whatever happens to him in the future, lets hope that the second part of Hamlet's life will be happy!
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Old 04-01-2014, 12:13   #31
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Thank you for your Information Rona!
What a Story. I will really try hard to find someone for him in Germany, where he can live his second part of his life in peace and well cared.
I followed him since he was Young.
Does he Need a second dog for companionship? Is he shy or ok with strangers? What about secure high escaped prove fences? Does he Need them.
Would be easier for me to find a good home, if I could get answers to my question, so that I will find a real good home for him.

Christian
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Old 05-01-2014, 12:02   #32
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I'm afraid I don't know answers to your questions. At present he lives as a family dog, with two white Swiss sheperd females and a male WSS puppy and he doesn't seem to want to escape - he sleeps in a shack outside, but enters the house on demand. I suppose if he's taken his temperament after his double grandpa (Iran ZO), he must have a really nice personality. (BTW From what I've heard Iran is 15 now, he's still is interested in females and his human fan club has significantly increased over the last few years. )

Until Hamlet was castrated lots of people from several countries wanted to adopt him, but the number has dropped close to zero after the castration. Partly, becuase breeders with bigger vclak packs were afraid their dogs might not accept a castrated one, partly, because some hoped they might have registered him as stud and have "unique litters" .

I passed the link to the person who is in charge of Hamlet and if she is interested in your kind offer I suppose she'll contact you.

After all he had gone through I belive Hamlet/Wilk appreciates a good friendly home and ...deserves it, like any dog does.
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Old 05-01-2014, 13:57   #33
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Poor dog

Hope he gets a happy life after all of this...

/ Mikael
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Old 05-01-2014, 15:25   #34
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Until Hamlet was castrated lots of people from several countries wanted to adopt him, but the number has dropped close to zero after the castration. Partly, becuase breeders with bigger vclak packs were afraid their dogs might not accept a castrated one, partly, because some hoped they might have registered him as stud and have "unique litters" .
I think interesting is the back door... unfortunately as far I know there were also "normal" people (not breders) interested in him. Nobody get Hamlet due to the lies told by Grzegorz. The problem is the new owner of Hamlet is a very big friend of the owner of Czambor - mendioned Grzegorz.... a person non grata by most (if not all) Polish breeders... and a big promotor of Czechoslovakian Shepherd who is ENVY about every Czechoslovakian Wolfdog. He throws mud at every typical Wolfdog (famous are his stories about genetic faults invented by him )
Because of it first Grzegorz tried to show that Hamlet is a degenerate (because of the pedigree) - he is a ingorant when it comes to genetics. I'm almost sure he thinks that inbreed is a infectious disease (ok, I exaggerate a little ). Later he convinced Beata to castrate Hamlet although we write about the future problems with acceptance of castrated dogs...

At the moment Rona is right - nobody is interested to adopt Hamlet because all people who wrote something are attacked by Grzegorz on a very bad way. Also the breeders do not want to help because theiy do not want to be involved in any addoption ruled by Grzegorz... No wonder: one of my dogs was "adopted" by him and his friend. The dog was put down without my knowledge.
The second adoption had better end but much worsed process. After it Grzegorz slandered all people and breeders who helped to save the live of Car and promoted himself as hero...
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Old 05-01-2014, 19:20   #35
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"nobody is interested to adopt Hamlet because all people who wrote something are attacked by Grzegorz on a very bad way. "
Haha, I've blocked the guy on fb so I don't see what role he has played in the Hamletgate. To be honest, I'm not even interested .

IMO the person who is now in charge of Hamlet is an experienced dog owner, has her own judgement of the situation and on having listened to all advice and suggestions, will select the best home available I don't think the owner of Czambor has anything to say in this case
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Old 06-01-2014, 17:29   #36
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IMO the person who is now in charge of Hamlet is an experienced dog owner, has her own judgement of the situation and on having listened to all advice and suggestions, will select the best home available I don't think the owner of Czambor has anything to say in this case
I totally agree
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Old 13-01-2014, 11:47   #37
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I don't think the owner of Czambor has anything to say in this case
He never has ANYTHING (serious and sensible) to say but he says..
But as long as Grzegorz will humiliate every person who is interesed in adoption of Hamlet the dog will never find any new home. Because adopting Hamlet you will also "adopt" Grzegorz....
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