Bonitations in Italy

[Navarre]

Originally Posted by massimo

I agree with you that in Italy there is no power from breeding committe

thank's God !!!

Originally Posted by massimo

Since then a lot of improvement has been made in italy, already 6 bonitations have been made.

6 BONITATIONS WITH 6 DIFFERENT RULES ! The bonitation in Italy is a JOKE, with breeder of committe that measure themselves their own dogs, "adjusting" the misuration when needed...
I personally will never bring my dogs to a bonitation in Italy with this so-called "Club".

Originally Posted by massimo

but a lot of information is running and the "most important" breeders are ever more pushing in the right direction.

Yeah, right direction...shy long haired CSW looking as Collies.

[massimo]

Originally Posted by Navarre

I personally will never bring my dogs to a bonitation in Italy with this so-called "Club".

But navarre has been Bonitated in Italy, right?

Maybe all should know You (or one of you... )
are one of the Italian Kennel club Committee...complaining about the club itself!

Very encouraging!
Any interesting proposal (apart from complaining of course...)
massimo

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by Navarre

6 BONITATIONS WITH 6 DIFFERENT RULES ! The bonitation in Italy is a JOKE, with breeder of committe that measure themselves their own dogs, "adjusting" the misuration when needed...

It is not wondering me. We get already many complains about the results of Italian bonitations. Expecially about the judgement of the character. People (not only from Italy but also from other countries) are asking how it is possible that SHY or VERY SHY dogs which their saw on some dog show get in Italy PERFECT character code and PERFECT note P1. It is wondering them especially because much better dogs (not so shy) for example during the bonitations in Germany get the disqualifications (P14) because they were not able to pass the character tests... Thy always ask how it is possible that scared dogs which would never past the bonitations by them or in the country of origin get so good notes in Italy...

You gave one answer: the dogs are judged by their own breeders (and it ALWAYS cause fraud).
Second answer is also visible: only the specific judges are invited. Always the same people which guarantee good notes for their friends... The kennel name of a dog really have influence how a dog is judged...and which bonitation code it gets...
Third: the character test has been changed so that even very shy dogs will be able to pass it.

All this cause that the Italian bonitation do not fulfil the rules for recognision of the results by the origin coutries. Because mainly the character test do not give the same "comparable" results. It is the reason why we also decided to make some changes in the new database on Wolfdog - the Italian bonitation results (also other which do not fulfil the rules) will be marked as "unofficial", will be not listed and not take into consideration as for example the results of Czech, Slovakian or German bonitations....

Originally Posted by Navarre

I personally will never bring my dogs to a bonitation in Italy with this so-called "Club".

Uffff..... good to heard about it...

Originally Posted by massimo

Yeah, right direction...shy long haired CSW looking as Collies.

Sorry.... but it must be: White Shy Longhaired CzWs....

Originally Posted by massimo

But navarre has been Bonitated in Italy, right?

In 2003 the bonitation in Italy were "normal" - made according the Czech rules by the members of the Czech breeding comittee. And as you can see the results it was done OK:
http://www.wolfdog.org/eng/bonitations/58.html
First later when the same judges were no more members of the breeding comittee (read: no more under control) they started do judge not according the official rules but according their own rules (or the new "italian" rules).

I think the last "normal" bonitation was in Serramazzoni in 15/5/2004. I know it was made accoring the "new" rule for character test but Sona Bognarova tried still to give the dogs the same notes as they would get in Slovakia. Maybe it was the reason why some breeders was so angry on her - they changed the rules in order to be able to pass the bonitation with their shy Wolfdogs but even with the very mild character Sona was able to write the right character code of their dogs... BAD, BAD Sona... Now it is no wonder why the Slovakian judges are no more invited to judge the bonitations in Italy since 2004....

Originally Posted by massimo

Maybe all should know You (or one of you... )
are one of the Italian Kennel club Committee...complaining about the club itself!

It is nothing new... We had the same situation in Czech Republic before... to be member of the Club Comittee do not mean you must have the same point of view....

[rocco]

Hmmmm - Margo has a strange opinion but for me it isn't surprice ! I must smile to something what some people are writing here. Nice theories .

[massimo]

I will try to be objective although It's not so easy.
However, when I mentioned different character judgements in different bonitations, I didn't refer to Italian bonitations...
I saw a bonitation made in Slovakia.
The figurante was a female, her "attack" was not really an attack.
She wasn't heading towards the dog but going "away" from it.
She was just waving her stick in the air, not looking at the dog.
I asked Sona how could she judge this "attack" which was really reduculous as an attack.
She replied very elegantly (again I must say nobody can top Sona...) that she will adapt her judgement to the degree of attack.
This means that even a small reaction to the attack would be bad considering the attack was "light".
Similar situation in the bonitation in Italy.
Sona used the same "parameter", adapting her judgement to the degree of the attack.
THIS is SERIOUS JUDGEMENT!!
Now you say Sona's bonitation was not "official" and so will not be considered on YOUR site.
Well, I consider the bonitation of my dog (now i'm losing my objectiveness of course) as valid as that of any other dog, because it was done by a great judge (and signed by her too).
You are free to take it off your site, but I think the validity of a Bonitation should be decided by experts, not by you.
Up to today, this bonitation is valid.
This for me is valid for Sona's bonitation and also for the following ones of course, because they have been done by experts, although they are not slovak or maybe good friends.
By the way, during that bonitation a dog was judged as P3 by Sona....the judgement was not accepted and done again by another good Judge but in another year...and the result was the same. Same dog, same judgement, different bonitation.
"Good judges??"

Originally Posted by margo

It is nothing new... We had the same situation in Czech Republic before... to be member of the Club Comittee do not mean you must have the same point of view....

sure, but being a member of the italian Club I would like to see the components of the comittee make good proposals, maybe publishing them, not just complaints...it's offencive for those components of the comittee who have worked hard and well.
massimo

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by massimo

Personally I have a very small female and although she has got Hip displasia even if she didn't I'm not sure if I would have used her. I wonder how many others have the same "criteria".
Not many I think.

No, not many... For such cases the breeders think out their own theories - if they have too small dogs they breed them and tell "I'm breeding very small dogs because small dogs are....". When they have too large and too heavy dogs they breed them and tell the theory "I breed such dogs because wolves can reach even 90 cm and height 70 kg"...
They breed untypical dogs and always have their own explanation...

So are the breeders which do not have any idea how a typical Wolfdog should look like, they have no idea what is written in the breed standard and never saw an European Wolf with their own eyes...

The second group are breeders which will use such female to see what is the problem (of course if the female is "worth" to do it). Sometimes an illness or wrong treatment is responsible for small size. They make "test" litter to see the results. If the puppies are "normal" they can breed with such dog... But it is only an exception...

Originally Posted by massimo

I remember so much critisism about using Cutt who was too short (64,5cm), but he didn't give the majority of "short" sons.
I agree with the critisism that he was used too much, this I agree surely.

I don't think it was the problem... The problem was that the P14 male was advertised as the best male in Italy. It was bred with so many females. And none (almost none) of the puppies were checked if the size is right. See how many puppies are born and only few of them have the bonitation code... can you assure that not the highest has been choosed and other are too small and their owners do not make the bonitation because are affaird that also their dogs will get P14?
I do not say it must be so but not even one litter is bonitated. And bonitation code of ONE dog from each litter is not enough to say if the too small size was inheritated by the puppies....

Originally Posted by rocco

Hmmmm - Margo has a strange opinion but for me it isn't surprice ! I must smile to something what some people are writing here. Nice theories .

Thank you very much for very constructive comments... Maybe you will be able to answers Italian people why shy scared dogs get "balanced" character during the bonitations in Reggio Emilia. Maybe start with this topic:
Bonitazione - 13/6/2005 Reggio Emilia

Originally Posted by massimo

I saw a bonitation made in Slovakia.
The figurante was a female, her "attack" was not really an attack.
She wasn't heading towards the dog but going "away" from it.
She was just waving her stick in the air, not looking at the dog.
I asked Sona how could she judge this "attack" which was really reduculous as an attack.
She replied very elegantly (again I must say nobody can top Sona...) that she will adapt her judgement to the degree of attack.
This means that even a small reaction to the attack would be bad considering the attack was "light".
Similar situation in the bonitation in Italy.
Sona used the same "parameter", adapting her judgement to the degree of the attack.
THIS is SERIOUS JUDGEMENT!!
Now you say Sona's bonitation was not "official" and so will not be considered on YOUR site.

No. You are wrong... I said that even while some people changed the rules in Italy in order to be able to pass with their dogs the bonitation Sona WAS ABLE to judge the dogs according the right rules. And exactly this made some people crazy... They made everything to pass bonitation with shy dogs but Sona is an experienced judge and she changed the "parameters" and the results of the ITALIAN bonitation made by HER are still credible. :P But we also know that is was the reason why she is no more invited to make bonitation in Italy. Right? As the gossips say: she is no more welcome there and now only the same Czech judges are invited because it was not possible to force Sona to judge milder and to give good notes to shy dogs from VERY IMPORTANT KENNELS...

Originally Posted by massimo

Well, I consider the bonitation of my dog (now i'm losing my objectiveness of course) as valid as that of any other dog, because it was done by a great judge (and signed by her too).

Massimo, I know you are angry but you must understand also the point of view of other people. Sure the bonitations are not perfect but the problem with Italian bonitations is rising and rising... Just imagine that a breeder will decide to cover his female with PERFECT italian male. The breeders will make 1000km in order to cover her female. And in the end he will see the male - SHY, SCARED of strange people. What such person should do? Cover his female with dog which is in the fact P14? Ask the owner of the male to pay the money for the trip because the male is not as it should be? Or ask for compensation the judge which made the bonitation because SCARED dog is not Of and P1 so the judge wrote a false information? Who will be responsible for such judgement?
I'm really not talking about dogs which have perfect note but are not curious or not brave enough. We are talking about dogs which get perfect codes but are EXTREMLY shy. Which are running away when they see people. Which are not to handle in a group of people....

Originally Posted by massimo

You are free to take it off your site, but I think the validity of a Bonitation should be decided by experts, not by you.

Who is an expert in Italy? Who is responsible for it? Who quaranty the quality of the bonitation?
Just tell me one thing - HONESTLY: imagine I will make the bonitation by us in Poland. Daiva is a national judge for Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs. I'm the breeding comitteee member for the 1. FCI group by the Polish Kennel Club. We will get Rona(if she agrees ) to wrote the results of the bonitation. As you can see we have valid bonitation comittee. Now we decide to make bonitation in Poland. We will invite all people. By our friends we will measure the dogs and ALL of their dogs will get from us the bonitation code Axx Of P1 (where xx is the height). If the dog will be shy it would get Axx Og P1 (xx - size; maybe not perfect because it is hard to measure shy dogs but I think the error will be maybe 1-2cm). Other dogs will be also bonitated - I do not like some breeders so I assure you dogs from their kennels will be VERY exact judged by us and ALL faults (maybe even some more ) will be written in the bonitation card...
As you can see MY bonitation will be similar to the bonitation in Italy. Do you think results of MY bonitation should be really taken into consideration? Do you want to tell me I really have the right to make it (officialy I have the right, I ask if I have the right to make SUCH bonitation from the ethical point of view)?

Originally Posted by massimo

By the way, during that bonitation a dog was judged as P3 by Sona....the judgement was not accepted and done again by another good Judge but in another year...and the result was the same. Same dog, same judgement, different bonitation.
"Good judges??"

But the judgement must not be the same... Dogs develop - with 15 months the dogs look different as with 4 years. Also the character can change. Even in Slovakia and CZ you can repeat the bonitation one time...

Originally Posted by margo

sure, but being a member of the italian Club I would like to see the components of the comittee make good proposals, maybe publishing them, not just complaints...it's offencive for those components of the comittee who have worked hard and well.

OK, it is the question to Navarre. I don't know how it is going on in the Italian Club right now... But I'm curious...

[Rona]

We will get Rona(if she agrees Cool ) to wrote the results of the bonitation.

Rona doesn't agree because she doesn't understand the bonitation codes


Besides, I'd would be very strict and nobody would invite our team again

[Navarre]

Originally Posted by Margo

Expecially about the judgement of the character.

Not only character, but measures too.

Originally Posted by Margo

Third: the character test has been changed so that even very shy dogs will be able to pass it.

the character test changed every time; now is similar to bonitation but the decoy doesn't come back to the dog.

Originally Posted by Margo

All this cause that the Italian bonitation do not fulfil the rules for recognision of the results by the origin coutries. Because mainly the character test do not give the same "comparable" results.

I really agree (and i said this to comittee many times but unsuccesfully).

Originally Posted by Margo

In 2003 the bonitation in Italy were "normal" - made according the Czech rules by the members of the Czech breeding comittee. And as you can see the results it was done OK:

In 2003 the Club wasn't recognised as official,,,was just a bunch of "friends", and Susanna was not not even in the committee of the Club.

Originally Posted by Margo

they changed the rules in order to be able to pass the bonitation with their shy Wolfdogs but even with the very mild character Sona was able to write the right character code of their dogs...

Sona had a very hard time because in bonitation of 2004 there wasn't any attack at all !!!!

[snip]

Hello!!! This is your opininon about italian bonitations?

6 BONITATIONS WITH 6 DIFFERENT RULES ! The bonitation in Italy is a JOKE, with breeder of committe that measure themselves their own dogs, "adjusting" the misuration when needed...

I personally will never bring my dogs to a bonitation in Italy with this so-called "Club". Are you sure,but very sure,about this?
Bonitation isn't a play,so what it means JOKE?In my personal opinion you speak badly of Italian CCLC,to obtain only one result:the change of actual president and committee.......
You wrote in the italian section of the web site,now in the english section,when in french section??
Please propose your name for the next president,so,all things will be better than now!
Translate from english to italian of your post:
la bonitazione in italia e' una beffa(o burla come desideri),con allevatori membri del consiglio che si misurano da soli i propri cani,aggiustando le misure quando serve...Io personalmente non portero' mai i miei cani a una bonitazione in italia con un cosi' chiamato Club.
Ho tradotto poiche' persone che non conoscono l'inglese,ma hanno cervello per capire la sostanza delle cose,possano leggere la tua opinione che,a questo punto,e' diventata internazionale!

[snip]

I have a doubt:i'm thinking you are a member of committee or not?............
Do you have problems with some breeders?..........
Breeders of committee?........
I'm not in accord with you for your way to approach the problem about CCLC.

[BWolf]

Hey Snip,
I totally agree with you but,
Please, pay attention to what you write!
You were not talking to someone who "wrote in the italian section of the web site"...
You were talking to the moderators of Italian section of the web site!!!!
I know it's hard to believe from their "diplomatic" way of writing, but that's a fact!

Snip wrote:
"Please propose your name for the next president,so,all things will be better than now! "

If it happens, i'll became member of the club just to vote them and to see them work more and write less

[snip]

i wrote what i think about,and nothing offensive!
My way to talk is very correct,as you can see;many persons use different words to explane their concepts.If you see ,in the website in italian language,you can read the useful way to express offensive words.One person has called me "stupid"!!

[massimo]

I really don't want to continue with "angry" discusssion because useless.
i don't like this forum to become ridiculous as many italian forums, so I really ask my italian "friends" to avoid this forum from becoming so.
Maybe Margo will have to create a new language forum:
"in english for italians...." were italians have fun quarreling in english!
My comments are made only because I do not think certain comments made by people on this thread (in particular margo) are correct so i just want to give readers also "my" point of view.
I don't have surely margo's experience in csw but I HAVE seen the bonitations made in italy and also some made out of italy, but I don't think on the contrary Margo has ever participated or seen any in italy.
My comments are made only with the aim to inform readers that in Italy there are many breeders (even some which Margo dislikes) who work very well and so certain (maybe not all...) breeding plans are excellent.
That the club is making it's efforts to improve a chaotic situation, has a lot to improve but it's working hard.
That only through collobaration amongst the 3 most important countries (in terms of quantity of dogs born) CZ, SK, IT there can be a real improvement of this beautiful breed, and example is given by those breeders who look in other countries for new good bloodlines, by members of club visiting the other countries to "see" with their own eyes what is happening.

Originally Posted by margo

They made everything to pass bonitation with shy dogs but Sona is an experienced judge and she changed the "parameters" and the results of the ITALIAN bonitation made by HER are still credible. :P But we also know that is was the reason why she is no more invited to make bonitation in Italy. Right?

If italian people are not happy about the judges and decisions of the club, they will elect other club during new elections next year, or speak to actual club asking them and suggesting them how to behave.
I am personally doing it because I really love this breed.

Originally Posted by margo

Massimo, I know you are angry but you must understand also the point of view of other people. Sure the bonitations are not perfect but the problem with Italian bonitations is rising and rising... Just imagine that a breeder will decide to cover his female with PERFECT italian male. The breeders will make 1000km in order to cover her female. And in the end he will see the male - SHY, SCARED of strange people. What such person should do? Cover his female with dog which is in the fact P14? Ask the owner of the male to pay the money for the trip because the male is not as it should be? Or ask for compensation the judge which made the bonitation because SCARED dog is not Of and P1 so the judge wrote a false information? Who will be responsible for such judgement?

I really like your example but it is applicable to any judge and any bonitation.
I would NEVER use my female with some males which passed with "certain" judges unless I have personally seen this male...
So if in SK a dog called Y passes bonitation with P1 or P3 from a certain judge, I will not take my risk making 1000km to cover with him if I doubt about the judge. Not only in italy...

Originally Posted by margo

Who is an expert in Italy? Who is responsible for it? Who quaranty the quality of the bonitation?

You misunderstood me.
Expert is the judge who made and undrsigned the bonitation.
This judge is expert, more expert than you margo, forgive me.
Maybe not perfect (who is perfect??) but real expert.
Maybe not a big friend for many, but this is not a reason valid enough for you or anybody else to say they are NOT expert enough.
IF the cz and sk and it comittee (yes, the breeding comitte in italy has also a lot of experience, may you like it or not) do not say that judge X is NOT authorised to make bonitations, then THEIR bonitations are valid.
Because I trust judge X has the "ABILITY to judge the dogs according the right rules", not only Sona Bognarova whom I totally trust, until somebody proves the opposite.

From my point of view I have said even too much so celebrate , my comments on this thread are over.


massimo

[zikika]

Hi,
I think that bonitation would have be the same in all country.
it cannot be estimated in the same way two things made with two various criteria.
I have seen Czech bonitation and many Italian bonitation..... the hardest Italian bonitation does not have comparison with that I have seen (and made with Kira) in Czech Rep.
You can see below an italian P1 and its bravery




Massimo....Oliver will not have problems to exceed the bonitation in whichever other part of the earth.