Puppy prices

[yukidomari]

As simply a pet owner and not a breeder, here are my thoughts..

I am ok to pay 1000 euros for a puppy from parents I like. I would pay even more for a proven adult.

I do think that 1000 euros for each puppy in a medium litter lets the breeder gain a little, like someone else said, if I exclude regular things like food or training, which a person should provide anyway.

But, the biggest thing for me is that I assume that the breeder will take that surplus and apply it to other future breeding expenses, such as importing a new female, which makes it possible for our breed to continue healthily. In other words, I think of it like supporting the breeder's dream or vision for the breed.

Of course, this does not apply to breeders that are just breeding one or two litters for fun..

Just my thoughts.

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Originally Posted by martiou07

A family being able to bring a splendid life to my baby but not having the means, for me this is not a problem, I can to re-examine the price, because I think above all of the good future being of my pups...

We thought the same way some time ago but changed this attitude due to our experiences.

First, what will happen if something happens to the dog like for example a car accident, what about the health tests of the dog etc. These costs a pretty soon above the normal puppy-prices. If I get a non-purebred dog I save money I can spend on those occasions.

Second, if I can´t afford the puppyprice of a pure bred dog of a good breeder why does it have to be a pure bred dog? Of course we all have reasons why we choose a CSW but if we are honest it would be possible to find an adequate dog with the same character if we would try. It might not look the same though but for me the character is much more important. If for someone the wolfish look is that important he anyway is not the kind of owner we want for our dog or for this breed.

Third if I can´t afford something now I will save money to buy it later, looking for a dog I would take the meantime to get more informations about the breed and breeders.
I waited about 8 years till I bought my first dog, not only because of prices but mainly because then I had the possibility to give it a suitable surrounding.

We had one person who tried to discuss the price several times we didn´t give him a puppy though we first told him he could have one and refused it some time later after getting to know him better. Not because of the price-discussion but because of a bad feeling. We have been very right, he turned out to be an egoistic psychopath, unluckily he managed to get several dogs of other breeders, three he gave away till today and he will go on collecting...

We had another buyer who made an extremely good impression for us so we agreed to payment on rates, everything turned out well for the dog in the end but the police was involved in between and I will never agree on something like this again.

So our conclusion is: We will discuss maybe about the money for x-raying the dog that we pay back after doing the x-ray if we know the person and trust him. But if anybody can´t pay our price for the puppy we go on and find another good owner, we don´t mind to keep the pup much longer till we find somebody.
We undergo a lot of work and trouble and we invest a lot of time for our dogs and breeding. The price we ask is the value we give to our dogs and this work and we invest the money back into our dogs. If somebody doesn´t want to pay our price he doesn´t value our dogs and our work enough, he will not get a puppy.

As coming back to the different prices: If Slovakian people are asked to pay 400 Euros and I am asked to pay 1000 Euros this is due to the different income in different countries, the value of the dog stays the same in this case, I might even pay less than the Slovakian in relation.
If a western country asks 2500 this is not due to value of the dog but to the market price. I will not pay this price for a normal dog and we refused to pay this stud fee to a normal French or Italian stud without bonitation and without show results of a specialised judge in the past.

Ina

[martiou07]

Hello Ina,

yes I include/understand your reasoning completely.

But my small experiment makes that I am not yet to confront with various problems like you ...

however I keep your intervention well at the head

[martiou07]

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

.
If a western country asks 2500 this is not due to value of the dog but to the market price. I will not pay this price for a normal dog and we refused to pay this stud fee to a normal French or Italian stud without bonitation and without show results of a specialised judge in the past.

Ina

for a dog, never I would not put a similar sum, for me, this price for an animal is that the practice a merchant of dog

[massimo]

Puppy prices do NOT reflect in most cases the quality of the dog.

Puppy price is decided by the Market and the ignorance of the buyer (as opposed to the knowledge)

I was VERY lucky with my first dog, i had no experience at all and I got a wonderful healthy beautiful strong male.
He is 8 years old and still looks and behave as if he was 2.

With experience, time, dedication, you learn what is important to look for when buying a puppy.

Ignorance brings most to look for the most wolfish looking parents.
Ignorance brings them to spend 2 or 3.000 euros to a breeder who puts NO effort in breeding than to just mate wolfish looking dogs... regardless of bloodline or health or character.
And sometimes they even DONT use a wolfdog but a wolf Hybrid and sell them as wolfdogs.
In this case I consider these people CRIMINALS and wouldn't spend a penny on their dogs.

Those who do are Ingorant AND stupid.

Studying well the bloodline of the puppy you buy, the health and morfology of the parents and the grand parents and if possible even the puppies from previous litters.

But that is NOT enough...you also should look at how the breeder treats his dogs, how he grows them up.

I have puppies from very different breeders.
I trust ALL of them, regardless of what many people say on this forum.
Because I KNOW, i went to their homes, I saw how they treat their dogs.
I wouldn't do some mistakes they do, but these mistakes are not enough for me not to buy a puppy from them.
Some of them became my friends and I trust them not only as breeders.

Finally, i believe it is a DUTY of the breeders to select the new owners, not just to chase their money.
A good owner is a good advertisement for your kennel too.
Sometimes it is worth giving a puppy for a lower price than usual JUST because the new owner is a good one.
In my case I am sure my breeder/friends know it.

[massimo]

Of course, for me it's obvious but i forgot to mention it,
the efforts a breeder can do about character and morphology are to train the dog (basic training would be great but more training would be even greater), bonitation.
I am ready to spend 1000 or more on a dog who's parents are bonitated, have done basic training, some shows with breed expert judges...

About dog shows...I learnt after 8 years that dog shows mean NOTHING, really really nothing.
Because most judges know much less than we do about CSW.
The dog show results are just a good publicity, nothing else.
With exception to when the judges are also Breed Experts.
No offences to the others, but I consider today breed experts only 3 people.
Monika Soukupova, Oskar Dora and Sonja Bognarova.
And even they are human beings and can make mistakes.
Any result from other judges to my eyes are meaningless.

[Vaiva]

Nearly 5 years ago I moved from a rental flat in the oldtown to an even smaller but OWN flat near a big park (Vilnius looks like a forest when you are landing by plane - this is because of many parks). This was the point where my "I need a dog" became... well... I could simply start crying just thinking about it... Like a child. Then I heared about the first wolfdogs litter in Lithuania. Tried to contact wolfin. Got positive answer and the price... Much too big for two students... I will not tell all the story, but wolfin then gave me a chance to have Brukne ("I want you to have her" ) and little by little I paid the price of my dog.
There were times where we had like 2 euros for two people for a week (for food). But the dog was always FIRST. She was always well fed, always had good vets, always most loved.
Now I am not having the best financial situation ever but still my dog comes first than a vaccation/cosmetics/new shoes/evening out. And I will always think that a person who can not just pay 1000 or smth euros for a dog at once still can be a very good owner.

[massimo]

Vaiva, apart from telling you your profile picture is the best I have ever seen (beautiful dog and even more owner!), your story is touching and ever so true.
I have been in serious economical problems here in Prague since I arrived 4 months ago and found a job only last month.
And, just like you, I have priorities.
There was a moment i had the last 100 euros waiting for something to happen....I didn't think a minute and I spent them ALL on dog/cat food, so at least they will not starve!
The next day, i got the money from a Studfee from Echo.
It's wolf Karma!

Originally Posted by Vaiva

Nearly 5 years ago I moved from a rental flat in the oldtown to an even smaller but OWN flat near a big park (Vilnius looks like a forest when you are landing by plane - this is because of many parks). This was the point where my "I need a dog" became... well... I could simply start crying just thinking about it... Like a child. Then I heared about the first wolfdogs litter in Lithuania. Tried to contact wolfin. Got positive answer and the price... Much too big for two students... I will not tell all the story, but wolfin then gave me a chance to have Brukne ("I want you to have her" ) and little by little I paid the price of my dog.
There were times where we had like 2 euros for two people for a week (for food). But the dog was always FIRST. She was always well fed, always had good vets, always most loved.
Now I am not having the best financial situation ever but still my dog comes first than a vaccation/cosmetics/new shoes/evening out. And I will always think that a person who can not just pay 1000 or smth euros for a dog at once still can be a very good owner.

[Vaiva]

Originally Posted by massimo

Vaiva, apart from telling you your profile picture is the best I have ever seen (beautiful dog and even more owner!), your story is touching and ever so true.

I've blushed and we both (Brukne and me) are giggling
Yes, giving our best to the dogs always pays in many different ways

[Sherdor]

I think a french breeder with profesional status could give an interesting point of view.

Here in France the main breeders have got "amator" status, that means they are not knows from ADMINISTRATIVES SERVICES like TAX OFFICE or VETERINARIAN INSPECTION SERVICES.

That explain a lot of things according to puppy price !!!

First, if you are PROFESIONAL BREEDERS (registered as profesional but maybe with ONLY FEW LITTERS) you have to pay each year :
- a minimum of charge about SOCIAL TAX,
- the kennel structures respecting the law (kennel with enough spaces, park for dogs, allowed fences, system to eliminate wastes and easily washes)
- all operations in the breeding station must be followed and written onto specific documents (or informatic system)... so that means you have to make all vaccinativ, anti-worming, desinfection program and all is written with invoices from vet...

No way to not make it ! Each dog which enters the breeding station must be registered, and so when left...
When you breed some breeds you also have to pay specific insurance policy.

All of that means : money for investment and time to make all works = CHARGES to put in puppy price !

For all breeder, of course, you have to nourrish the dogs, and followed the right cares for them (and vets cost !!!)... for all dogs... the oldest one, even you don't use them in your breeding program.

Then, when you have the objectiv to breed good dog (excellent ?) you have to follow some rules :

- be sure that you dogs are almost good = going to dogshow and evaluate the dogs... (just as example : my loved Ar'wan has made more than 50 dogshows and seen more than 30 differents judges and i think about 25 % in foreign countries)...
A dog carrier cost a lot...

- to choose some male according to your objectives and maybe have to travel for that (that costs)... and most of time, to pay the dog owner because you have to use his dog !

Then for the mother all vet care must be ok : anti-worming, echography, radiography....

When puppies are borned, same things (and sometimes ceaseran operation !) anti-worming, vaccinativ program, pedigree registration and so...

Selling a puppy is a thing, and each breeders give the garanty he wants after that...

First are medical guaranty (if the puppy has got problem, the breeder is responsible to cure the dog or participate).

Personnaly, we choose to offer "all life dog advicing" to help them good growing, to obtain good socializacion, and make them well integrated in the new family for happy life... that means "taking our cellular and be available for customer".

Sometimes guaranty must be about dogshow or breeding carrier..., and pass by a good selection according to customer wishes.

... and them, when puppy is adult, if you consider you have breeded interesting dog, the minimum is to present them in dogshow... and i usually used to take some dogs with me in my car, to pay dogshow even they are not mine.

Some breeders (WE) organize obedience training or plan regular meeting in the year to make customers to meet each others and exchange knowledge and experience...
This is also strong guaranty for new owner to be helped by experienced people...
... and preparing that meetings means also time, some food and confort...

So i think these argues are enought numerous to explain what you could have difference between dog prices...

... and a price means not only "the dog"... but often a lot of guaranty !

By that, sometimes a price of 1000 € could be expensive compare to a 1200 € price with a log of things included with the dog !

[Hanka]

Hi Eric, so it is easy!!! : go quickly to university, study and when you will be veterinarian, make your own professional kennel and you wil save money for veterinary service .
Happy new year

[Vaiva]

Originally Posted by Sherdor

I think a french breeder with profesional status could give an interesting point of view.

But this is very similar for every country and doesn't explane the price differences In Lithuania you also should pay taxes and get a paper from veterinary service IF you are living from breeding. I am not so sure about veterinary documents, but you have to pay taxes if you get income from selling puppies REGULARY and if you do not have any other income (like salary).

Em, also it is an interesting topic - what part of official minimum salary does a puppy price in different countries take? Could anyone count these things?

[Sherdor]

Hanka i have profesional breeder status (my wife) because we have choosen :
- to give our puppies owner some guaranty,
- to avoid people jalousy would have the idea to inform tax services if we have one litter,
- by that we are known by administrativ services and local town to be serious (we often receive lost dog from policemen or town employees to keep them a night until refugees open doors on the morning)

Unfortunally, we have profesional status but we breed a few puppies each year (even with our rottweiler)... 23 puppies in 3 year for CWs...

... that means much more charge than money earn ...

As i remember, first year... -7000 € (year for installing everything)....the second -3000 € ... This year.... due to our big charges in veterinarian.... hum that hurt my head (only a few puppies also)

.... if i want cash back our charge onto puppy price, i haven't evaluate it yet... but i imagine a BIG SELLING PRICE...

I made some evaluation to earn money with dog breeding...

To imagine an income enought and regular, it would be more than 150 of puppies each year based on a 30 females and of course some males....
(And the medium price is 500 € for each puppy, because in this way you have to take in mind that not only CWs but several breed...)

The cost structure would be huge (not under 50000 € if you made it by yourself), and authorization particular.

[martiou07]

hello,interesting, yes indeed, a professional breeding will have more load compared to the tax, nevertheless, I do not see which additional guarantee you can provide a small breeding family will not be able to provide.

I remain persuaded that all breeder worthy of this name will be in measurement; to bring the same thing exactly.

However, that comforts me, I have a small breeding family, the accounts are always in the red, but I simply live my passion without having to count what each one of my dogs report to me or not…

[Sherdor]

... You are true for some point ....

But you can have a REGISTERED STATUS (i.e. PROFESIONAL BREEDER) and PROVIDE HIGH GUARANTEE according to the way of breeding, taking puppies inside house and every care about socializacion.

The MOST IMPORTANT is that in PROFESIONAL STATUS you engage YOUR RESPONSABILITY ACCORDING TO LAW much more than amator status... and also about puppies health.

In case of problem, the law is more strict with profesional...

I remain persuaded that all breeder worthy of this name will be in measurement; to bring the same thing exactly.

The only difference is the COST OF BREEDING... only this point ... and what is your due to ADMINISTRATION... and that costs !

... and the subject is to try to explain SELLING PRICE DIFFERENCE ...

... not to compare what you are able to do or not... just to give elements for explaining the price.

The only "price" doesn't explain anything...

[Vaiva]

Originally Posted by Sherdor

The MOST IMPORTANT is that in PROFESIONAL STATUS you engage YOUR RESPONSABILITY ACCORDING TO LAW much more than amator status...

Even not being a "professional" breeder, you can (should) sign a contract, where both - breeder and new owner - have their responsibilities signed. And it works just the same.

[Sherdor]

.... Yes Daiva, but in case of problem it is not the SAME COURT when you start a lawsuit ...

[wolfin]

Originally Posted by Sherdor

.... Yes Daiva, but in case of problem it is not the SAME COURT when you start a lawsuit ...

this are Vaiva, not Daiva ( me) I not dispute in this themat )

[Vaiva]

Originally Posted by Sherdor

.... Yes Daiva, but in case of problem it is not the SAME COURT when you start a lawsuit ...

The same. I am not sure about the laws in other countries, but in Lithuania signed agreement works.
My mother is a judge, my father is a lawyer, believe me, I consulted

And yes, I am Vaiva, not Daiva.

[martiou07]

but contract or not, professional or not, I filled perfectly my responsibilities with respect to my pups and those throughout their life.

I have not need to have a contract to respect my responsabilities.

Yes the subject is the price difference, only I reconsidered this point because it explain of anything the difference.

The only real difference is right the taxes relative to professional breeding...

Now why this price? because is the price that a pup CSW in France is sold, quite simply. Profitability when spoken a hobby I do not know, sorry…