Subliminal dominance - shy Wolfdogs

[Mirkawolf]

This is a nice story and i would want to know more about the subliminal dominance techniques.

But I think, that it is impossible to compare pure wolves and wolf hybrids with a dog breed like
CW and SAS. I can=B4t talk for Saarloos, but CW=B4s are normal dog breed with up to 30% of wolf
blood, which are simply more receptive to shyness and they need special attention.

I had been this weekend at CW summer camp and i was again surprised, how many wolfdogs
there were shy and problematic. I also noticed, that the most shy dogs were usually those of
owners from other countries than Czech Republic (excepts dogs of Margo and Przemek).

What a luck, that i personally know the same number of wolfdogs, who are normal and
not shy at all, and are trainable and well behaving.

I have been thinking about reasons for this, and still i am not sure. Maybe in other countries
are different rules to treat the dog? I can=B4t believe that the problem would be only in the dogs.
More i believe, it=B4s a problem of not enough socialisation in early age of the wolfdogs, and
not enough of attention and training. With our breed, the basics of it=B4s character are made before
two, maximally three months of it=B4s age. With education and training, you can continue to form
the character of the dog up to one year of age, but after this .. no big changes.

Mirka

[Villulv]

This is a nice story and i would want to know more about the subliminal dominance techniques.

Me too.

But I think, that it is impossible to compare pure wolves and wolf hybrids with a dog breed like
CW and SAS. I can't talk for Saarloos, but CW's are normal dog breed with up to 30% of wolf
blood, which are simply more receptive to shyness and they need special attention.
I had been this weekend at CW summer camp and i was again surprised, how many wolfdogs
there were shy and problematic. I also noticed, that the most shy dogs were usually those of
owners from other countries than Czech Republic (excepts dogs of Margo and Przemek).

What could possibly be the explanation of this? Are Czech people more aware of what they want out of their dog and what they get when they buy a wolfdog? A problem with these kind of breeds must be to avoid to let "wrong" people getting these dogs.

What a luck, that i personally know the same number of wolfdogs, who are normal and
not shy at all, and are trainable and well behaving.

Not shy at all? Referring to what is stated above, they are "more receptive to shyness and need special attention", and that must be an unavoidable and very sound heritage of the pure wolf.

I have been thinking about reasons for this, and still i am not sure. Maybe in other countries
are different rules to treat the dog? I can't believe that the problem would be only in the dogs.

What about different habits and tradition for treating "macho" dogs? Here in Sweden lots of the GSD and Rotweiler people treat and train their dogs either not at all or quite dominantly, with very little knowledge of wolves or dogs in general and their needs and behavior.

More i believe, it's a problem of not enough socialisation in early age of the wolfdogs, and
not enough of attention and training.

Very likely. The lack of competence in our dogowners is severe. But that would mean that Czech dogowners would be more aware of the importance of this, and I wonder what would be the explanation of that? What can we do to learn from the Czechs?

With our breed, the basics of it's character are made before two, maximally three months of it's age.

And that is a fact for any breed, I would say...that far from the wolf isn't any dog. We would have much less problemdogs altogether with more knowledge and interest of breeders and owners. People looking for a puppy should be more careful of choosing the right breeder than they usually are, probably due to lack of competence with the future dogowner. My oppinion is that the Kennel Clubs and/or authorities unfortunately aren't enough concerned with educating, controlling and following up the breeders nor enlighten dog owners, maybe because they themselves lack in competence?

With education and training, you can continue to form the character of the dog up to one year of age, but after this .. no big changes.

My oppinion is that it is POSSIBLE to form a dog at any time of age - but it is certainly much easier at early ages, the same goes of course for any mammal, f e humans. I usually don't train dogs over two years of age, because the outcome is more indefinite.

Sanna

[Pavel]

I had been this weekend at CW summer camp and i was again surprised,
how many wolfdogs there were shy and problematic. I also noticed, that the most shy dogs were usually those of owners from other countries than Czech Republic (excepts dogs of Margo and Przemek).

Mirka, let me know to little bit comment your opinion. Its true, that
percentage of shy CsW is higher in other countries outside CZ and SK.
But by us is number of this problematic CsW relatively high as well.

I have been thinking about reasons for this, and still i am not sure. Maybe in other countries are different rules to treat the dog? I can´t believe that the problem would be only in the dogs.

Absolutely agree. CsW have in gens the wolf behaviour, of course. But
read the standard, from wolf have not the shyness. Standard says :
"Lively, very active, capable of endurance, docile with quick reactions.
Fearless and courageous. Suspicious, yet does not attack without cause.
Shows tremendous
loyalty towards his master. Resistant to weather conditions. Versatile
in his uses.".
"Suspicious" is the most important word in this case. Many owners change
the suspiciously by shyness. And its a basicaly fault.

More i believe, it´s a problem of not enough socialisation in early age of the wolfdogs, and not enough of attention and training. With our breed, the basics of it´s character are made before two, maximally three months of it´s age. With education and training, you can continue to form the character of the dog up to one year of age, but after this .. no big changes.

One of this problem is, that in some countries is practically no
possible to take a puppy before his 8th week. Its generaly regulation of
FCI. In CZ our kennel club understand our specify situation and
tolerate, when the new owners take a puppy in 5th week. Why ? Because
the socialisation is by our
dogs most important thing, exactly how Mirka wrote. Other problem is,
how the people keep the CsW. Of course, if is dog whole day locked in
kennel and only 1 time in the day go out with owner to walk, then cant
be waiting good socialisation. CsW have very strongly pack instinct and
about it must the owner always think. Second possible fault is, take a 5
week old puppy from breeder and let him free on the garden with other
dogs. Its a other extrem. Puppy will be good socialisated on dogs, but
not on the human.
And training have a big role in this socialisation and education
process. The puppy would be visiting a dog school very soon as possible.
Not for pure training (8 week puppy, cant be trained in this sense), but
for the "aclimatisation" - means other word for "socialisation". Puppy
is between other strange dogs and other strange people. See, that the
dog must listen own owners, see the activity in the school, hear the
different sounds etc. Come with 2 years CsW first time to training is
little bit late. For some individuals is it no problem, but mostly is
too late for some big successes.

Pavel

[Villulv]

And training have a big role in this socialisation and education
process. (...)

Agree - but still this is essential for ANY puppy of ANY breed. I practise this with my puppies with success. Not only the "wolfdogs" need this training.

Sanna

[Mirkawolf]

I had been this weekend at CW summer camp and i was again surprised, how many wolfdogs there were shy and problematic. I also noticed, that the most shy dogs were usually those of owners from other countries than Czech Republic (excepts dogs of Margo and Przemek).

What could possibly be the explanation of this? Are Czech people more aware of what they want out of their dog and what they get when they buy a wolfdog? A problem with these kind of breeds must be to avoid to let "wrong" people getting these dogs.

As Pavel said in his e-mail, here is also a lot of shy dogs. Well, he had seen more of wolfdogs here than i did. Most of those i see normally are commonly behaving normal dogs. I mean dogs which do not escape to hide when they see a stranger.

I agree that the breeders should take care, that their puppies go to the right hands. This is sometimes hard to consider, who is good and who is bad. But i think the breeder should keep in contact with the new owners and help them and advice them, and this way also control how their puppy is doing. Of course, this depends on the decision of the breeder, they can't be forced to do it. Though, there is such recomendation written by the CW Club here in CR.

What a luck, that i personally know the same number of wolfdogs, who are normal and not shy at all, and are trainable and well behaving.

Not shy at all? Referring to what is stated above, they are "more receptive to shyness and need special attention", and that must be an unavoidable and very sound heritage of the pure wolf.

Yes, those i know well - Apollo Schovanka, Dag z Brdskych hor, Asterix Eden Severu, Jerry Lee z Molu Es, Cherry od Uhoste, Brenna Sedy Chlup, Nancy Seda Eminence, Hoky z Molu Es, Bolton Eden Severu and others, which names i don't remember .. they all are fine, trainable and ok.

Of course this breed is more receptive to be shy (or suspicious, how Pavel calls it). For me, when dog escapes to hide under a cottage, when i go around, such dog is not suspicious but shy - or scared like hell. There is just few decades from the last cross with pure wolf, and this must be seen somewhere. The breed is very young, in comparison with for example Saint Bernard or let's say English bulldog. Btw. at the camp i saw one very shy Leonberger. The owner had also CW, and also very shy dog. I believe the problem can't be in the dogs, but in the owner.

I have been thinking about reasons for this, and still i am not sure. Maybe in other countries are different rules to treat the dog? I can't believe that the problem would be only in the dogs.


What about different habits and tradition for treating "macho" dogs? Here in Sweden lots of the GSD and Rotweiler people treat and train their dogs either not at all or quite dominantly, with very little knowledge of wolves or dogs in general and their needs and behavior.

I think that our CW are far from "macho dogs" and they can't be trained like that. Or explain me what is "macho dog".

More i believe, it's a problem of not enough socialisation in early age of the wolfdogs, and not enough of attention and training.


Very likely. The lack of competence in our dogowners is severe. But that would mean that Czech dogowners would be more aware of the importance of this, and I wonder what would be the explanation of that? What can we do to learn from the Czechs?

I think that every dog needs attention and training. The problem is that when golden retriever has lack of attention and training, it won't be probably that visible and it won't form that much his final character, like it would at CW. If the owners of CW here are more aware or not, this i can't say. But here we make a lot of meetings, events, the summer camp, we meet at different competitions and tests. At all these places the owners meet and they can discuss the problems. We also try to manage to keep somehow in contact with the owners of CW around us, to meet and train together etc.

For example, i live in Plzen, so i know almost all wolfdog owners in Plzen and around (some owners do not want to co-operate), and we all visit the same training place, or we meet at some occasions. With most of them we are good friends and we visit each other often. When there come a new puppy to the area, i am informed about it by Pavel or by the breeder and i contact them and offer help and advices of all of us, i offer the chance to meet and to visit the training place.

With our breed, the basics of it's character are made before two, maximally three months of it's age.

And that is a fact for any breed, I would say...that far from the wolf isn't any dog. We would have much less problemdogs altogether with more knowledge and interest of breeders and owners. People looking for a puppy should be more careful of choosing the right breeder than they usually are, probably due to lack of competence with the future dogowner. My oppinion is that the Kennel Clubs and/or authorities unfortunately aren't enough concerned with educating, controlling and following up the breeders nor enlighten dog owners, maybe because they themselves lack in competence?

I think that every future owner of any kind of dog, should inform himself first about all the pluses and minuses of the choosen breed, about it's needs, about how to train it, so that he can see if he's able to own such dog.

If i want to buy car, i must have driving licence first. If i want to have dog, i must know how to take care of it.

Lots of people buy CW because it looks like wolf, but they have absolutely no idea about what it needs and how to treat it. If they don't get help and advice, they most likely will rise shy and problematic dog, which will end in some rescue center, or at the best will return to it's breeder.


With education and training, you can continue to form the character of the dog up to one year of age, but after this .. no big changes.


My oppinion is that it is POSSIBLE to form a dog at any time of age - but it is certainly much easier at early ages, the same goes of course for any mammal, f e humans. I usually don't train dogs over two years of age, because the outcome is more indefinite.

This i can't agree at all. Maybe it can work with GSD, to start to train it in two years, but never with CW. The wolfdog is the most receptive to training up to his first year of age. So the socialisation and training (according to age of the puppy) must start immediately after getting the puppy. Maybe here is the problem? That some owners wait for the "good time to start" so long, that they miss the best period?

Mirka

[Pavel]

Agree - but still this is essential for ANY puppy of ANY breed. I practise this with my puppies with success. Not only the "wolfdogs" need this training.

Sure, but by e.g. GSD you can starting the training in 12 months and its make no problems. Not by CsW. Its valid by all dogs but by CsW 100% more.

Pavel

[Villulv]

I don't agree - if you wait until 12 months of age you will see a lot of problem GSDs...and you do, don't you?

Sanna

[mariagroot]

My colleagues and I have learned to work safely with wolves using techniques
of subliminal dominance.

Parker,
could you please explain what you mean with this technique. It could be
usefull for many of us.
Thanks,
Maria

[Villulv]

Okay - what I mean by "training" maybe isn=B4t the same for you guys?...I "train" my dogs every day from day 1, or day -30 if you wish because I visit the breeder as often as I can - in the way that I train them socially, with me, with other people, with other dogs, different places, different environments, hiding, playing and so on, but very gently...that for me is one part of true training and very important for the young pup.

Sanna

[Parker]

I would be glad to try to explain.

When I have time I will try to write a narrative summary about our methods.
Before I do this I have a question for the majority of the egroup. This
question is based on my experience working with my colleagues in Kosice
Slovakia. My understanding from my colleagues who are fluent enough in
spoken English that we understand each other about 90% of the time is that
written English is understood with a higher level of comprehension than
spoken English. Much of the problem with spoken English communication had
to do with we lazy Americans using slang terms. I was able to correct the
problem most of the time by avoiding unfamiliar words and slang. I would
like to know how proper my written English has to be in order to avoid
communicating the wrong information. Any suggestions or guidance would be
very helpful and appreciated..

[Mirkawolf]

I guess as much proper as it can be?

Mirka

[mariagroot]

Parker,
your written English is OK for me.
Maria

[catar2catars]

Hoi Parker,

No problem with Your written English.
Looking forward to Your training methods "subliminal dominance"
I think it can be a great help for CSV people as well for SWH people.

Greets,

Roger
Belgium.

[z Peronówki]

Mirka, let me know to little bit comment your opinion. Its true, that
percentage of shy CsW is higher in other countries outside CZ and SK.

You forgot Poland - the percentage of shy dogs here (from 16 CzWs we have
;D ) is even lower

But by us is number of this problematic CsW relatively high as well.

This number is proportional to the number of people which have no idea about
what they are buying. In some countries where the main information about
this breed is missing people are buying a CzW instead of buying a wolf. They
even do not try to their their dogs...

But read the standard, from wolf have not the shyness. Standard says [...]
Suspicious" is the most important word in this case. Many owners change
the suspiciously by shyness. And its a basicaly fault.

Not only many owners. Speak with the breeders - some of them are telling a
CzW can be shy because it has wolf in it.
There is also something other: the better-known breed is Saarloos Wolfhound.
It's older, almost all judges know their breed standard. And they are trying
to judge Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs the same way ... but a Saarloos, as
written in the stardard can be shy, and can run away from a stanger. For a
CzW it a huge fault. A CzW can be only "suspicious".

One of this problem is, that in some countries is practically no
possible to take a puppy before his 8th week. Its generaly regulation of
FCI. In CZ our kennel club understand our specify situation and
tolerate, when the new owners take a puppy in 5th week.

It's old "good" topic. We are just working on it on one of the polish
mailinglists. The are different points of view. Some of them are telling the
best time is 8th week. Other people will not sale a puppy until it is 10
week old or more. But I see amost all CzW picked up so late are shy and they
need much more work and more patience than other puppies (it is the reason
why the breeders sending us info about their litters want to sell puppy at
the age of 6 weeks).

Because the socialisation is by our
dogs most important thing, exactly how Mirka wrote. Other problem is,
how the people keep the CsW.
Pavel

But we can't forget:
- the breeders...
.... and where the puppies stay whole day before they go to their new
owners. Some of them keep puppies in the kennels and they see their breeder
only while feeding time. Behind it they do not have any contact with other
people or dogs. On the other end we have breeders which keep puppies only at
their home. Sounds good but such puppies are also not good enough socialised
as the puppies from a kennel. Only a puppy which had contact with strange
people, dogs and sound can be later a good dogs and we will not have to work
on fault a breeder made when the puppy was 3, 4 or 5 weeks old...
- the parents of our puppy...
... some dogs come from good breeder, have a good owner but will never be so
good as other dogs. And that's because of the character of their father or
mother. If you see different litters, different lines you can see the
character of the parents (or its parts) mirrors in their puppies. Sometimes
even very good socialisation is not enough...

Greetings,
Margo

[z Peronówki]

Btw. at the camp i saw one very shy Leonberger. The owner had also CW, and also very shy dog. I believe the problem can´t be in the dogs, but in the owner.
Mirka

I don't think so (in this case). This Leonberger is one of the puppies bred
by this person and she is the only one shy dog in this litter. One time
there were 6 small cats born at our home. We spent the whole time playing
with them, they saw our dogs, were playing with our friends a.s.o. Five of
them already have a new home. They are more dogs than cats now. But one is
still with us because she was very different. She was shy her whole live. We
though she can't hear, see or speak because in the first weeks she never
made a "meow". Now I know there is everything OK with her. She is just very,
very shy....

But back to the wolfdogs You already listed almost all reasons why the
CzW can be shy. So there is nothing to add.... Now we can only think how to
change this situation.

And at least - yesterday we made for the bitch from France you wrote about a
unofficial bonitation. There were tested not only the exterier but we also
made the character tests. And the results are: she is not only beautifull
(has no bigger faults) but after this one week on the sommer camp she will
also be able to pass the official bonitation....

Greetings,
Margo

[mariagroot]

This Leonberger is one of the puppies bred by this person and she is the
only one shy dog in this litter.

I heard of cwd litters also all good, but one shy. What do you think should
a breeder do with such a puppy? Should you cull/euthanize such a puppy or
keep it yourself? I don't think it should be sold, because it is bad for
the breed and the new owner will face problems that he cannot help.
What do you think,
thanks
Maria

[Pavel]

I heard of cwd litters also all good, but one shy. What do you think should a
breeder do with such a puppy? Should you cull/euthanize such a puppy or
keep it yourself? I don't think it should be sold, because it is bad for the
breed and the new owner will face problems that he cannot help.

I dont know, which experience have other breeders or owners, but I must say,
that I never seen and heard about such case. Yes, of course, the puppies just
born with different character, but really shy puppy I never seen. Less
courageous puppies are quite normally. My experience is (not only with my
puppies), then 8 weeks shy puppy is 100% fault of breeder (no socialisation).
And its the reason as well to pick up the puppy from breeder soon as possible.
In 5th week can new owner just correct all eventually faults of socialisation
very easy, but every week later is it more and more complicated.
And the problem with euthanasy - according Czech law (and I mean, that most of
EU countries the same) can be using euthanasy only by puppies, which have some
very seriously defects. Means physicaly defects, not character. All other using
euthanasy is a criminal.

Pavel

[Xhrista]

Hello what I can tell about shy Saarlooswolfhonden.

Most of the puppy's if a SWH are not shy before the age of 12 weeks,so
you can never say that you can keep the shy one .
My male was very shy the first years of his life,but since he is an
adult(the SWH is later as a TWH)he is very selfconfident.
I don't think it's good for the pup to go to the new owner at the age of
5 weeks.Most of the time it's the only dog in the house,so he will be
socialized to people but not to dogs,the only way to learn in the first
2 months is from other dogs.So he is for the work it can be good,but not
for being a familiedog and walk in the park.
I always told people with young dogs let the dog play with dogs of the
same breed,even if they are 5 or 6 months they are smarter than other
breeds ,so most of the time they win al the playing games and they learn
to win.

Christa

[Mirkawolf]

And at least - yesterday we made for the bitch from France you wrote about a
unofficial bonitation. There were tested not only the exterier but we also
made the character tests. And the results are: she is not only beautifull
(has no bigger faults) but after this one week on the sommer camp she will
also be able to pass the official bonitation....

Woooo! What you did with the dog? When i was there, i couldn't even
approach the dog to touch it, and it tried several times to bite me. But not really bite, just to let
me know to go away.

Mirka

[Mirkawolf]

Christa,

can you tell me, how much costs such a puppy of Saarloos wolfhound? I've no idea and i am not even
sure, if anyone here in CR breeds them.
Thanks,

Mirka