Long Coat - Genetic Problem?

[wolfin]

But as interesing only Carpatianian wolf, not Arctic or Mexican,
Wolfdog have Carpatian wolf blood and we mas see this wolf hair, not others wolfs.

Originally Posted by Chinook

Well, concerning the hair length of wolves; I've been doing some measuring. The summer fur of the wild Arctic wolf i've measured (upper fur, guard hair), is along the spine area longer; around 13/14 cm., the tailhair is about 17 cm, hair on the muzzle is very short and on top of the head a little longer. The hair on the legs is pretty short too. The underfur is very wooly and about half as long as the upper fur and very dense. The hair is not fluffy-silky like a collies.

It seems to me that in wolves it's a matter of different species, like there's the Mexican wolf, Carpathian wolf, Arctic wolf. The fur of the Mexican wolf is shorter than the fur of the Arctic wolf. Next to that, it has to do with the climate and of course the genes each wolf has inherited individually, just like some people can have longer hair than others. Probably the same goes for thickness of fur.

Also look at this winter coat of the Arctic Wolf: When you look at some pictures in the book of Mech you can see the winterfur is longer than 15 cm (Sorry, somehow i cannot send these photos to this site).

Chinook

[Mirkawolf]

Originally Posted by indiananous

Using no more sires who made long haired puppies, it's like hiding our face in the sand, as the ostrich does.

You might think so, but it is clear, that there is certain problem and it would not hurt anyone, to stop using the sire for a while and search solutions. It is not advisable anyways, to mate the same dog again and again, it shrinks the gene pool of the population in the area (or even country).

Originally Posted by indiananous

That means it would be necessary to mate ASTA with others dogs, to know if long hair appears once more, and do the same concerning ART with others females. All of this to compare the genetic and, PERHAPS, find a respons. !!!

Yes. I find it perfectly normal, especially for Asta. Is there a problem with that? If we agree, that long-haired CSW´s are non-standard then it is logical to search a way to produce normal haired puppies.

Originally Posted by indiananous

But, only two couples ? That's impossible !
We, breeders, are now face to face with real problems among the c.s.w ; we have to try to resolve them. And that means to be clear concerning our puppie's malformations. I've tried many times to discuss about that with others french breeders, but...they NEVER have been concerned in any disease or anything bad !!! Great, isnt't ? My bag was just empty of critics about my kennel....

Well, here we are talking and we are definatelly concerned. But from talking eventually we have to come to "doing", unless there will be no change.

Originally Posted by indiananous

When I first met the c.s.w at Mirka's kennel, I really felt in love seeing Asterix eden Severu. I made a promess to myself : once, i'll have a dog like he.

If you like the dog, it´s ok. But for the others who do not know Asterix Eden Severu, I must say that the dog is heavy build, has strong dysplasia and heavy head. By no means it is ideal CSW or a dog with wolfish look or movement. His bonitation code says it too: A70,5 D5 F2 I8 Of P5 And I say this despite the fact that Asterix´s owner is my good friend.

Originally Posted by indiananous

I'll try to find you pictures of a long haired csw with his summer coat.

Good, I am eager to see that.

I still think, despite the genetic debates here, that if Art carries the gene for long hair, and so does Asta, it is not wise to mate them together again.
If I was owner of both of those dogs, I´d stop breeding Art and I´d search male from different blood for Asta, perhaps of Slovak origin. And I would not consider myself ostrich at all.

[Navarre]

Originally Posted by Dharkwolf

It is very easy to select against. All you need to do is look at a dog (not a photo) to see whether a dog has excessively long fur or not.
...... If you cannot select against such obvious faults, then the ability to select against more subtle (and possibly more serious faults) is likely to be called in question, it can and will damage your reputation as a breeder. So don’t do it!

Thank you for you explanations, but i think your conclusions is the best : easy and clever, you wrote down in good english my thoughts

But "you shouldn't speak if you don't have produced almost 100 puppies ! "

[Huan]

I think there should be also mentioned one thing. There is a different quality of the coat too. The Czechoslovakian wolfdog should have a hard coat which is similar to goat coat and it shouldn't be soft. There is even a fault on bonitation card for dogs with too soft hair but most of the judges do not pay much attention to it. This is very important when we have a dog with long hair because this characteristics is much more visible. This would be interesting if the collie-like dogs still have a typical hard coat like normal CzWs - I bet they haven't.

[elf]

Kingston K. L. Mak and Siu Yuen Chan (2003)
Epidermal Growth Factor as a Biologic switch in Hair Growth Cycle
Journal of Biological Chemistry; - Vol 278 No 28 pp 26120-26126.

D. J. E. Housley, P. J. Venta (2006)
The long and the short of it: evidence that FGF5 is a major determinant of canine 'hair'-itability
Animal Genetics 37 (4), 309–315.

Some updates in coat lenght area, two more genes identified:

Science. 2009 Oct 2;326(5949):150-3. Epub 2009 Aug 27.
Coat variation in the domestic dog is governed by variants in three genes.

Cadieu E, Neff MW, Quignon P, Walsh K, Chase K, Parker HG, Vonholdt BM, Rhue A, Boyko A, Byers A, Wong A, Mosher DS, Elkahloun AG, Spady TC, André C, Lark KG, Cargill M, Bustamante CD, Wayne RK, Ostrander EA.

National Human Genome Research Institute, National Institutes of Health, Bethesda, MD 20892, USA.
Abstract

Coat color and type are essential characteristics of domestic dog breeds. Although the genetic basis of coat color has been well characterized, relatively little is known about the genes influencing coat growth pattern, length, and curl. We performed genome-wide association studies of more than 1000 dogs from 80 domestic breeds to identify genes associated with canine fur phenotypes. Taking advantage of both inter- and intrabreed variability, we identified distinct mutations in three genes, RSPO2, FGF5, and KRT71 (encoding R-spondin-2, fibroblast growth factor-5, and keratin-71, respectively), that together account for most coat phenotypes in purebred dogs in the United States. Thus, an array of varied and seemingly complex phenotypes can be reduced to the combinatorial effects of only a few genes.

[hanninadina]

I did not notice that there is such a thread. But the difference between pure wolves and wolfdogs is that the wolves have "long" coat - in wintertime - and the wolfdogs in the same time do not have. So the "miky lin" is from that point a well done breed because she is in line with wolves.

Christian

[Nebulosa]

Originally Posted by hanninadina

I did not notice that there is such a thread. But the difference between pure wolves and wolfdogs is that the wolves have "long" coat - in wintertime - and the wolfdogs in the same time do not have. So the "miky lin" is from that point a well done breed because she is in line with wolves.

Christian

Please, show me at least ONE wolf with this coat.



And sorry, if your wolfdogs have the same coat lenght in the winter, so they're really outstandard, when even mine wolfdogs (wich not pass for a strong winter) have a huge change in the coat lenght and density.

[Morian]

Nebulosa, he looks like veeery wolfish collie

Monika, "Long hair is exterier problem" are your words. Thank you for these genes from Russia...

[Nebulosa]

Originally Posted by Morian

Nebulosa, he looks like veeery wolfish collie

Monika, "Long hair is exterier problem" are your words. Thank you for these genes from Russia...

Unfortunately common, some "very experient experts who breed for love" loves to send the "best dogs" to countries where the breed is only starting, principaly when the people interested does not know much about wolfdogs and can be mistaken easly with the small talk of "this is the best pup of the best and most interesting litter at orign country!", I think I listened this history repeatedly at least 2 times with the same "breeder".

[Morian]

Oh, Nebulosa, I thought somebody must be responsible for the breed's future at us. Second CsW litter in Russia is going to be from X-Wild Planet z Molu Es and Brian z Reviru Vlku (first litter was from Rose PDL and someone Baron of unclear origin). These dogs were sent as pair for breeding I don't know, may be some people from Czech Republic still hate Russia like USSR... but to do it in clear mind... mmm... impossible.

Ah, yes. I'm not jelous. I have 2 males.

[massimo]

Morian, I am very curious about your words but cannot have an opinion without knowing better (i leave others to have an opinion without knowing much...it's typical for them)

X-Wild Planet I think has nothing to do with Induk so, I do not understand your words

Monika, "Long hair is exterier problem" are your words. Thank you for these genes from Russia...

...or maybe you refer to some other dog?

Unfortunately common, some "very experient experts who breed for love" loves to send the "best dogs" to countries where the breed is only starting, principaly when the people interested does not know much about wolfdogs and can be mistaken easly with the small talk of "this is the best pup of the best and most interesting litter at orign country!", I think I listened this history repeatedly at least 2 times with the same "breeder".

Ehm...Paula you are aware that the same small talk could be applied to you right?
Does the X litter Z Molu es appear to you as a bad litter for some reason?
Or is it just that the breeder is not on you "I like" list and so anything she does is bad?

About long hair, if a Male such as MIKY was a bad male because some of his puppies (a very small percentage) were long haired, then his son INDUK had a higher percentage always with long hair, if you read carefully in this thread it seems ART is a carrier of the "long hair" gene.
ART is son of Cira and Jerry Lee.
Maybe Jerry Lee is carrier of "long hair" gene too...and his brothers AND SISTERS..
It's easy to make a witch hunt, all you have to do is start...it never ends!

[Morian]

Please read once again name of this topic. I thought we speak about Miky. Isn't it?.. Look here please. And here too (if you're interesting why do we all laugh).

[massimo]

Originally Posted by Morian

Please read once again name of this topic. I thought we speak about Miky. Isn't it?.. Look here please. And here too (if you're interesting why do we all laugh).

I read the whole topic and it also speaks about other lines with long hair, not only Miky. (FYI, I think title is given by MOD and not by original person who posted message, so MOD can put any title he likes)

I was just trying to understand, so you are saying that Monika, breeder of X Wild Planet, sent a "couple" for breeding in Russia, X Wild Planet and Brian z Reviru Vlku?
From what I see no brother of litter Brian has long hair and, I repeat once more, number of sons of Miky with long hair is very very low in percentage, also if you consider the fact that same genetics (mikyxfendy) has been with 7 litters giving 33 puppies (statistically it's one of the highest number of CSW coming from same father and mother of all CSW history, record is Chlouba de Wolf ArimminumxEDGARWOLF) and from what I know only 2 dogs where long haired.
I am no expert but I assume that 2 puppies on a total of 33 from same female and 163 all together doesn't make a stud such a risky animal.
I suppose it is not Miky himself but the combination of his genes with other females with same recessive genes that "could" give longer hair, I don't think it's the worst thing that can happen in the csw world...but surely I'm wrong, I'm not as experienced as others who write in this thread...

[Morian]

Well, procentage and potential possibility are different things, I think.

And. Breeding is not just a way of making $. Breeding is hard work. Every Breeder must eliminate risks of exterier, health and other defects. Is it normal? Yes! But I can't understand some ideas... When genetics, breeding rules etc are not the keynote, then what? Business plan? Or what else?

Originally Posted by Morian

Well, procentage and potential possibility are different things, I think.

I'm sorry, I have absolutely zero experience with any of this sort of thing, but I'm reading & curious, so I just wanted a clarification.... isn't percentage just the actual statistic of potential possibility?

Or maybe is it you mean the actual result doesn't necessarily reflect the genetic probability statistic? Just thought of that now.

[massimo]

Originally Posted by Morian

Well, procentage and potential possibility are different things, I think.

...as for potential, in that case you should NOT ever breed... all dogs can give something bad "potentially"

[Nebulosa]

Originally Posted by massimo

Ehm...Paula you are aware that the same small talk could be applied to you right?

I have different view of breeding, I dont want to send the dogs far as I want to preserve their line in my country, so you will never see I trying to sent a dog to outside for get rid off it as these people do.
But... I listened the same talk when I was searching for a dog, and even today when I sent mails as "new owner" I receive the same replie of some breeders.

Does the X litter Z Molu es appear to you as a bad litter for some reason?
Or is it just that the breeder is not on you "I like" list and so anything she does is bad?

Looks like the hat had feet perfectly your friend Monika, right? well, sorry I was not talking exactly about her this time.
About the X litter, I never mentionated it, but if you want my opinion about, I see nothing special in this litter, no interessing blood, mostly not nice dogs with exeption of Xantina, that looks like follow better the standard.
Its nothing personal, even because I never talked with Monika more than by this forum, but I really put in my account the work that the person is doing for the breed before add or took out it of my "list" of " I like"
If she breed again a nice dog as she already did, a nice litter with interessing blood, I will pop praising it because I will realy get interested, but its not the case at the moment, so, its my hope for the future.

Originally Posted by Massimo

About long hair, if a Male such as MIKY was a bad male because some of his puppies (a very small percentage) were long haired, then his son INDUK had a higher percentage always with long hair, if you read carefully in this thread it seems ART is a carrier of the "long hair" gene.
ART is son of Cira and Jerry Lee.
Maybe Jerry Lee is carrier of "long hair" gene too...and his brothers AND SISTERS..

Maybe you should read again whole topic, will see that I, owner of Jezbeth that is daughter of Jolly a SISTER of Jerry lee, had pointed out that Jerry lee is a carrier of long hair as he did puppies with longer hair than the expected.
I have no kennel blindness, realy dont bothers me the possibility of my dog have the genetic of long hair (including, Hero Oskar dor, by Argo z Prizrak karpat probably have it as some of his pups have longer coat) if born a atipical dog with atipical characteristics, I will only give him neuthered for a prepared owner and warn people who wants to breed with the tipical puppies of this litter about the problem, so dont need to born more puppies with this problem again.
But, as I expected it didnt happened and I have pups with very tipical coat, but more adaptated for our crazy climate.
its interesting that at start Monika wrote that coat is not a lethal thing, she is not wrong as its not an lethal gene, but by other side the coat quality for me is very important, as my dogs should be able to be protected of the cold of winter (yes, where I lives the temperature can be negative but its the easy and ridiculous part for a breed wich comes from europe) and the extreme hot of the summer (this year arrived at 45C with much higher termic sensation, terrible, so its what we can say that need a real adaptaton by the dog) , my wolfdogs and their descendents have not problem, but I'm afraid if a dog like the one of the first photo would be able to survive at our summer with such coat.

Originally Posted by Massimo

It's easy to make a witch hunt, all you have to do is start...it never ends!

Where is the witch hunt? Talk that dog Y or X have problems its already witch hunting? So I'm witch hunting miself
Try to change your mind about it, does not exist perfect dog, does not exist 100% healty line, the only way for we improve the breed is talking openly about the problems, mostly of atipical litters and even problems appeared because the breeder was not warned about the problems the blood he used could pass, who suffer with it in the end are the inoccents, the puppies.
Our biggest problems is exactly the famous "kennel blindness", and this talk of "My dog is perfect/my breeding is perfect and who do not agree with me is witch hunting me" really bothers me.

About the topic name, sorry, it was a very old topic, I nor even seen the name of it now I will change

[Morian]

Massimo, breeding means selection.

Originally Posted by Vicky

I'm sorry, I have absolutely zero experience with any of this sort of thing, but I'm reading & curious, so I just wanted a clarification.... isn't percentage just the actual statistic of potential possibility?

Or maybe is it you mean the actual result doesn't necessarily reflect the genetic probability statistic? Just thought of that now.

Vicky, I mean only that percentage can be calculated on the basis of past expirience. And potential possibility = future or actual risks which must be eliminated by breeding. Or breeding is just increase of population?

[elf]

Sorry having excavated this thread , I just wanted you know we cannot say "do carry the gene for long hair", we already knew from experiences that this did not work like this, but now we deeper know why.