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Old 28-03-2012, 13:51   #1
michaelundinaeichhorn
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Default The Future Of Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs?

Most people asking got the answer they are pure , one got the information they are F3 and the founders of a fifth line of CSW though:


In Germany this would be a reportable assault of law.
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Old 28-03-2012, 15:37   #2
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I think in Germany, as in most other countries, one is innocent, unless proven guilty.

What is the point of this video, if I may ask?
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Old 28-03-2012, 16:09   #3
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This would be a reportable assault of law???

THIS is reportable assault of law, not in Germany, but in all world!!!!!

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Old 28-03-2012, 21:45   #4
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Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn View Post
Most people asking got the answer they are pure...
Just do not use them in breeding and they will not be the " Future of are breed "

Dosent mater if they are F1 or F10, they are P14 and not breedable !!!

Best regards / Mikael
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Last edited by Mikael; 28-03-2012 at 21:57.
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Old 29-03-2012, 21:03   #5
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Assault of law is Michael Eichhorn, that you are beating, hitting, kicking and strangled dogs til their tongue was blue(!), even 6 month young csw in public during shows! It was not one but several times and over years, you had been doing it! You are absolutely ridiclous, you, that you are wanting us make believe that this what you or your wife Ina did show in this video is an assault of law.

I would say this is purely stalking what Ina Eichhorn did here! 3 hours, she said, did she film?! Wow, how ill must you be of jealouzy. But I must say, I am lucky that you find another enemie after stalking me for years. lol. I can only shake my head.

Christian
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Old 01-04-2012, 12:39   #6
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Saarloos, crossed German shepherd malamute, f3... Nooooo! chiwuawua! (I am sure of it, the coupling was filmed, and I do not grow tired of looking at it)
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Old 01-04-2012, 17:52   #7
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Michael & Ina Eichorn,

When uploading footage and accusing people, based on no more than subjective observations and hear say comments, you are seriously endangering your credibility as a professional and respected breeder / veterenarian.

When being asked why you put it up, and not answering, you don't take responsibility for your actions and you lose all respect.

Take responsibility, remove the footage, apologize in public and realize, that making the world a better place, starts by being an example.
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Old 01-04-2012, 18:28   #8
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Maybe the owner of the dogs are to go make that DNA test she did say she was going to make... And if Ina and Daiva are wrong I´m very sure they will apologize... But they are not Puma !!!

Now when there is just not a photo, but also a film, that shows this...

I wounder what the France CsV club plan to do or say about this ???

Very best regards / Mikael
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Old 01-04-2012, 20:06   #9
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Mikael,

Photo, video, does not matter, it is an interpretation, which is subjective. Behaviour is complex and its motivators can be multiple.

The replies, when asked about the pedigree, differ and were not black on white on signed paper.

Don't make this personal, don't side any party, just think and act rational: this is not right.
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Old 02-04-2012, 11:41   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Puma View Post
Don't make this personal, don't side any party, just think and act rational: this is not right.
No 1, There is no side...

No 2, No it is not right to breed mixbreeds and give them pure pedigree papers...

So as I did say before, where is the DNA test the owner did say she was going to make ???

And even if they would be pure, I´m kind of sure they are P14 dogs, so they are not for breeding anyway...

Prove me wrong, make a DNA test + Do the bonitation on this dogs

Very best regards / Mikael
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Old 06-04-2012, 08:43   #11
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If I may say, from my point of view. I am no professional. at least not compared to my professor. But those dogs behaviour has to do with the way they have been handled and negative socialisation.
If I understand some of you are drawing the conclusion that these dogs behaviour is equal to the verity of the breed... with out any other evidence.. ?? or am I missing something here? (I havent been here on this site for a while, because It kind of lost the "flavour" with all the accusations towards everyone and everything... I thought it was rediculous..
And now after a certain period I come back, and it is nice to see how the site has moved on and become a better place to learn about csv's...)

Or you must have some evidence on lack and white that these dogs are not purebreds? No one would be so stupid to see the behaviour and then say "oh, those arent purebreds"... Because if that is the case, then my golly, we should go and accuse gsd's, CC, great danes, novascotians, dobermanns etc... etc.. etc... every dog breed in the world...
So I am assuming that you have more evidence than this video?

I personally dont care if these dogs are dachshunds... I am just making sure that the CSV world is not so ignorant that they go along with hear say, "my dog is better than your dog-syndrome" and videos of dogs behaviour, to make the conclusion that this certain dog is not a pure breed? right, you are much more intelligant then that.
Because anyone can see that those dogs behave that way mostly due to their experients and the way they have been handled.

This was not meant to be offencive to anyone. I just wanted to clearify that this was not only the reason "the boy cries wolf"...
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Old 06-04-2012, 17:48   #12
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[Quote Ursula]Because anyone can see that those dogs behave that way mostly due to their experients and the way they have been handled. [/Quote Ursula]

Hm - this is an assumtion, but unfortunately it's not simply socialisation (missing or not) - we've (CwD and foreseeing breeders) walked a long road to keep anxiety in line... 
Some generations ago behavior as it is shown in the film was one common possible trait among others; fear, tendency to flight, stupor from fear, and paniking when being confronted with loudly, noisy, indifferent situations. THIS has been a kind of disstress to the dogs which torchures without visible force.
There is really no fun in presenting a "scared to death" dog in puplic - I know what I'm talking about when it comes to deprived or scared dogs...

Todays breeding makes all efforts to  "get" our CwD closer to the standard, which expects fearless and bolt behavior... with many successfull results - "tough" dogs, mentally clear, more workable due to charakter traits like bravness.

Now there are some people who obviously don't care about standard of CwD breed - and worse, not even about their own dogs when they suffer from stress-stupor just because they want to present them in puplic.

It is only because they want "another kind of wolfdog", more wolf-like, more wolf-look-alike... therefore, they do not hesitate to send a whole breed back to Square 1... to me this is not only a slap in the face of all breeders whos archievement it is, that nowadays CwD are suitable even for living in urban regions and an attractive working breed,  but an assault to the well-being of their dogs and their future puppies, future owners...

If the statement here is correct - and as far as I have heard, it has been confirmed by those "new, proud producers" - that these dogs are F3 then they cannot be CwD -- but on the other hand those producers claim to have pure CwD Pedigrees... you see, there's some discrepancy...

If someone prefers shy or fearfull dogs, it would be easier to buy a SwD or other kind of WD instead of messing with a breed which shouldn't be shy or fearfull at all.

One last thought...if one preferes such dogs, please respect their traits, their fear, their well-being and ACT ACCORDINGLY!! Don't bring them into situations which aren't bearable for them - or at least have the guts to end such sits as soon as one becomes aware of their stressed behavior, please!
...and don't call them CwD if they aren't CwD...
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Old 06-04-2012, 19:43   #13
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Behavior is only one aspect to judge a dog by in accordance with the standard. And yes it can be heavily influenced by the owner's involvement with the dog's upbringing and socialization. And if this is the case here that the dog is fearful and shy because of it, (and if it is not the dog's natural temperament) then the owner also did a very poor job of upbringing and socialization.

Phenotype and genetic lineage is another aspect and the dogs in this video don't fit that well either.

So combined = yes something could be said about it.
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Old 06-04-2012, 19:45   #14
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Very well put. But that was not what I was getting at.
I am in the dog industry, I work with dogs everyday... different breeds. And from my experience you can get a purebred goldenretriever to act like this. You can get any breed or mixed breed to act like this.
I was just confirming that this video is not the only "evidence" to prove that these dogs are not purebred.
That was my point.
I completely understand that breeders are thriving to make the breed better. Which should be done in every breed. (but I also think that breeders in every breed should work more together)
But what I see from this video, are dogs that have been negatively socialised or maybe none... The part where the handler grabs the dogs muzzle and is negative towards the dog, with out any reason (or I did not see any reason on this video, maybe i was not able to see the entire situation) but what I saw is that the dog was penalised for acting shy. Which gives the dog more reason to be more aprehensive towards people. I could not tell from this video that they were mixed breeds... and if it makes any difference, neither did my colleagues...
But it doesnt make any difference.
These are my opinions. and just wanted some clearification on this matter.
That is all
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Old 06-04-2012, 20:13   #15
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Well, I also work in the "dog-industrie" , I see a lot of non-socialised dogs, working for a shelter, I work with European Wolves and CSWs since a long time. These animals don´t look like a CSW at all, they don´t look like CSV-crosses with European wolves and they don´t react like a badly socialised dog. They may react like a stray dog that never had any positive contact to humans, but this is obviously not the case here according to the photos their owners posted.
Additionaly the breeder told at some point somebody asking they were F3 and they would create a new CSW line. There is no living purebred F3.
If I would have doubted they are crosses before this Expo, I would have changed my mind seeing them live. And it would everybody knowing the breed only take some looks to be sure as well.

Anyway this is going to be cleared on FCI level as different countries are going to complain there.

Ina
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Old 06-04-2012, 21:21   #16
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That is the most fabulous thing I have read all day! That it is going to be cleared with FCI!! Fantastic!
This is what I am getting at that, things should be cleared up with the officials....

And it is great that you are in the industry ! Well done! So this means that you have loads of experience!

It is good that you have evidence on the fact that this person has said this and that of their dogs, that is what FCI will mostlikely ask for.

Good to get the ball rolling... but evidence and fact is the key.
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Old 06-04-2012, 21:44   #17
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Thank you, Ursula, for clarifying your point.

This video shows sequences of fear, panik up to stupor to an extend you will only find in dogs which are genetically more afrait of human company, more drawn to live on their own without human interferance. But I see no point in breeding dogs with such a high level of "shyness", because they will always have to live in a human dominated surrounding...

However, badly socialised dogs - been kept at a humans home with contact to a certain group of humans- will still, even in fear, be contactable unless they have been deprived to an extend beyond breaking. So, sure this can be done to "man's best friend" - but I doubt that the owners of the shown dogs mistreat them at home.
Often, the difference is not easy to recognise if one works with dogs living in Human society, because even people aren't used to this kind of behavior.
If one knows or works with CwD with this "personality trait", it becomes more ob obvious - no offence meant.

And...yes...I do work and live with such dogs, and I am glad that at least younger generations of CwD aren't handicaped in this way...
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Old 07-04-2012, 12:34   #18
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That of lies... The breeder has never said that these dogs were f3, but are purebreed , Ina it is really necessary to stop the defamation, that you have your opinions, even if they are unfounded ok, but to lie, not at all. It is really necessary to have a very sad life to arrive there.
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Old 07-04-2012, 12:45   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by julie9471 View Post
That of lies... The breeder has never said that these dogs were f3, but are purebreed , Ina it is really necessary to stop the defamation, that you have your opinions, even if they are unfounded ok, but to lie, not at all. It is really necessary to have a very sad life to arrive there.
about lie- for you and Ursula they are typical CSV in anatomy and behavior? not need info about F3 when all who a little know this breed, anatomy, genetic, and can read a pedigree see who say true and who lie.
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Old 08-04-2012, 00:20   #20
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You can also read more about all of this here
>>> http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthr...27758&langid=1

Yes, I agree it looks wrong to put up a video like this, but the video was not just filmed for no reason...

Best regards / Mikael
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