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Old 26-09-2010, 21:57   #1
Bille
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Default Why are these dogs in the database?

Hello,

do somebody know why these dogs are in the database? Afra is no GSD or a wolf.

http://wolfdog.org/eng/dbase/d14230.html

She had one puppy, a male. His father Ajax has a complete pedigree in the database.

http://wolfdog.org/eng/dbase/p14218-6.html

Was he a GSD? Can somebody help me? The birth of them is long ago: 1919/ 1922

Many thanks and greetings
Bille
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Old 27-09-2010, 02:10   #2
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Wouldn't have the faintest idea, as I also do not know why following dogs are in the database:

http://wolfdog.org/deu/dbase/d13571.html
http://wolfdog.org/deu/dbase/d14325.html
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Old 27-09-2010, 02:23   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buidelwolf View Post
Wouldn't have the faintest idea, as I also do not know why following dogs are in the database:

http://wolfdog.org/deu/dbase/d13571.html
http://wolfdog.org/deu/dbase/d14325.html
I guess Altaya de l'ange Gardien de Faujus is there because she is mother of a CzW mix called Dakara, the same thing to the father of Vorss de la Moliniere de lo Scale, a Saarloos called Tha'Anook.
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Old 27-09-2010, 02:56   #4
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I guess Altaya de l'ange Gardien de Faujus is there because she is mother of a CzW mix called Dakara
Hello Paula,

That makes sense. I asked myself because with this Altaya de l'ange Gardien de Faujus I saw neither parents nor offspring listed with any link to the CSV breed. Now it's clear. Remains only the question of Bille still standing.
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Old 27-09-2010, 03:32   #5
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Not an answer, but maybe some clues.

Afra is also listed in the German Shepherd section of pedigreedatabase.com:

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/germ...ee/473607.html

Dorn (see progeny) is also listed as having a puppy (Odur vom Haus Schutting) with this dog:
http://wolfdog.org/eng/dbase/d14141.html

Maybe someone is doing some research on early GSD lines? It's so interesting to see how type was more important than pedigree back then - and might include adding in dogs from different breeds. Even using both databases it is still difficult to see a connection to our breed.
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Old 28-09-2010, 12:14   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bille View Post
do somebody know why these dogs are in the database? Afra is no GSD or a wolf.

http://wolfdog.org/eng/dbase/d14230.html

She had one puppy, a male. His father Ajax has a complete pedigree in the database.

http://wolfdog.org/eng/dbase/p14218-6.html

Was he a GSD? Can somebody help me? The birth of them is long ago: 1919/ 1922
To the database will be added all German Shepherd Dogs till the beginning of this breed. So far we didn't take into consideration the inbreeds by GSD. It can be interesting.

It is the reason why where are so many GSD in the datbase now. And also the reason why you can see there one rottweiller and one shorthaired collie (both dogs were used for building this breed). You will be also able to find there some new wolves - about 4 or 5 were used by Stephanitz. The GSD breeders are hiding it but we were able to find pretty good sources which explain why GSD were called "Alsatian Wolfdogs" before...

So far about the other breeds in the database...


About the "new" mixes - it is not a secret that some breeders (or better said "so called breeders") mix CzW with different breeds and register their offsprings as purebreed CzW... Because there were already cases where puppy buyer were not informed that their new dogs can not be used as real CzW because they are not "PURE" Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs we decided that it is better to include such dogs in the database to warn future puppy buyers and other breeders which dogs/kennels they should avoid...
All mixes are listed in the database with the additional text:
(!!!_MIX_!!!)

In the future we will add to the database additional text warning the breeders and owners against using such dogs for breeding.
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Old 28-09-2010, 21:05   #7
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You will be also able to find there some new wolves - about 4 or 5 were used by Stephanitz. The GSD breeders are hiding it but we were able to find pretty good sources which explain why GSD were called "Alsatian Wolfdogs" before...
Interesting, and I would like to know more about these sources, if possible.
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Old 29-09-2010, 02:33   #8
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According to his own book on the breed, v Stephanitz also incorporated "Scotch Collies" into the GSD breed early on. This is supposedly why the "coated" GSD tend to have a more collie-like head, build and character...
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Old 29-09-2010, 03:30   #9
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Originally Posted by Lunas Mom View Post
According to his own book on the breed, v Stephanitz also incorporated "Scotch Collies" into the GSD breed early on. This is supposedly why the "coated" GSD tend to have a more collie-like head, build and character...
Wow, I know it's a little off topic, but that makes SO much sense!! My in-laws had an awesome coated GSD, and I always said she was just like a collie. I always thought collies and some GSD had a lot of similarities, makes sense since they're a bit related!
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Old 29-09-2010, 03:56   #10
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Yes, genetics tend to "bundle"... at the time, the Kennel Club of Great Britain was sort of the model of Breed Standards... the same time the Germans were developing their GSD, the Belgians had modeled their Standard for the Belgian Shepherd on the Collie Standard, and of course, the GSD was taken from the same rustic farm stock as the Belgian... Interesting to note that the merling gene was also introduced via the Collie... you can even see some early pics of GSD that had merled coats and even some "rough hair" variety - like the Laekenois/Berger Picard... yes, there is wolf in the GSD, as well, and I would even hazard a guess that there is PLENTY of wolf genetics from our own breed's beginnings liberally interspersed in the Czech-line GSDs... not only are almost all Czech GSDs from the z Pohranicni Straze kennel, but when you trace the origins of the Czech-bred GSDs, you see lots of the F2, F3 Vlcaks' names in their pedigrees... the GSD folks insist this is not true, but they also look at the Czech GSD as not as pure as the West German dogs... just look at the temperament and physical characteristics, too, and you can see some wolf in there, pretty recently...
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Old 15-11-2010, 00:12   #11
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Hello Admin:
Quote:
To the database will be added all German Shepherd Dogs till the beginning of this breed. So far we didn't take into consideration the inbreeds by GSD. It can be interesting.
I was a bit of searching deep into the pedigree database and met up with this german shepherd, born in 1907:Mohr von der Burghalde He seems to have a Csw as a parent, born in 2010 (??), namely K Lupi dei Camurati . Slight imperfection in the database....

Regards
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Old 16-11-2010, 14:12   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunas Mom View Post
Yes, genetics tend to "bundle"... at the time, the Kennel Club of Great Britain was sort of the model of Breed Standards... the same time the Germans were developing their GSD, the Belgians had modeled their Standard for the Belgian Shepherd on the Collie Standard, and of course, the GSD was taken from the same rustic farm stock as the Belgian... Interesting to note that the merling gene was also introduced via the Collie... you can even see some early pics of GSD that had merled coats and even some "rough hair" variety - like the Laekenois/Berger Picard... yes, there is wolf in the GSD, as well, and I would even hazard a guess that there is PLENTY of wolf genetics from our own breed's beginnings liberally interspersed in the Czech-line GSDs... not only are almost all Czech GSDs from the z Pohranicni Straze kennel, but when you trace the origins of the Czech-bred GSDs, you see lots of the F2, F3 Vlcaks' names in their pedigrees... the GSD folks insist this is not true, but they also look at the Czech GSD as not as pure as the West German dogs... just look at the temperament and physical characteristics, too, and you can see some wolf in there, pretty recently...
maybe there is lots more wolf in the lines http://www.asuperiorgsd.com/wolf-dog.html
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