Question about the oldest and best breeders

[dog_cooker]

I was wondering if someone can tell me which are the oldest (been breeding CZW longest) or "best" breeders. Common sense tells me its one in the Czech Republic.

[Mirkawolf]

Originally Posted by dog_cooker

I was wondering if someone can tell me which are the oldest (been breeding CZW longest) or "best" breeders. Common sense tells me its one in the Czech Republic.

I don´t think that it would be ethical to reply this question here. Because everyone can vote for different breeder, and to name only few would not be good, in fact it could produce serious quarrels here.

Who is "good" breeder, anyway? The one who produced most puppies and has several females and males? Or the one that has puppies just once a year on his only female, but spends all time on their socialising and up bringing?

If you want to see, who´s breeding longest in CR (or Slovakia for that matter), simply go to list of kennels and see how many litters which kennel had. It is rather clear, that kennels with long list of puppies are probably breeding for some time. Does that make them best kennels? You tell me..

[Rona]

Originally Posted by dog_cooker

I was wondering if someone can tell me which are the oldest (been breeding CZW longest) or "best" breeders. Common sense tells me its one in the Czech Republic.

1. I doubt if anyone would answer your question openly on the forum. There are many breeders among people who write here - they know each other well, their strengths and weaknesses, etc. They often cooperate or/and compete with each other, so open criticism or praise would be a very sensitive matter.

2. There are good, average and poor breeders in every country where CSVs are bred. BTW - at present the CSV herd books are kept in Slovakia not in the Czech Republic, if I'm not mistaken. Also the 'age' of the kennel or quantity of pups "produced" say nothing about their quality: health, character, working ability, etc.

3.First of all you should know what you want the dog for, i.e. what you're planning to do with it...(train him, take to dog shows, just have a companion, breed on him/her or not, etc.) and only then you should start searching for a kennel that has such priorities as you're looking for. Responsible breeders sometimes try to match spceific pups with the expectations of potential owners.

4. If you want to buy a good CSV pup spend some time on the forum, visit websites of the breeders, do you homework, read the past threads... You're not the first person who wants to buy a "good" CSV pup and is seeking advice. Eg. http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=5846

5. There more you learn about the breed, the breeders, the standards, etc. the better chances you have to buy a nice and healthy dog. Unfortunately this takes time, but buying a pup is more like adopting a child rather than getting a comodity from a store. Any haste or wishful thinking may cost you a lot, not only financially, but also emotinally.

6. And last but not least - remember that best breeders usually make the life a of a potential buyer really tough before they decide to sell him a pup This is because they do care about their dogs and they want to make sure it will have a good life. So be patient and don't behave like an assertive customer in a supermarket
Good luck
Rona (not a breeder)

[Angelika]

I fully agree with Rona and Mirka.

To live with a CSW demands a lot of humor but I don`t know if "dog cooker" is the right one.

Angelika (no breeder)

[dog_cooker]

thanks guys you have been very helpful. I didnt mean to start anything between the breeders. I should of restated that to who was the most well known breeder whether it be show dogs, training, or for breeding. I want the dog to be part of my family, so i would think that show dog breeders will be best.


p.s. im not REAL dog cooker, well at least not YET!lol j/k

[Nebulosa]

Originally Posted by dog_cooker

thanks guys you have been very helpful. I didnt mean to start anything between the breeders. I should of restated that to who was the most well known breeder whether it be show dogs, training, or for breeding. I want the dog to be part of my family, so i would think that show dog breeders will be best.


p.s. im not REAL dog cooker, well at least not YET!lol j/k

See only show results can put you in a mistake.
Is important see at first the helth control make by the breeder, if all dogs have displasy results, if the puppys born in that kennel have too displasy results and what results, if the breeder have bonitated dogs ( not only his breed dogs, but the offsprings born at his kennel too).
Is important take care with the mates made by the breeder, if that breeder have only repeat ever the same mate ( that isn't good), or if he was searching for others differents male for use.
Never forgoth that CzW is a working dog, so, good breeder will have working titles too.
Show is important too, but health, behaviour (of the dog) and good caracter ( of the breeder with the breed) is more important.

[Mirkawolf]

Originally Posted by dog_cooker

I want the dog to be part of my family, so i would think that show dog breeders will be best.

That´s rather wrong expectation, sorry. You see, Czechoslovakian wolfdog is working dog breed, it is not "show dog". Yes, there is many people who show the dogs, but luckily there are no "show lines" in the breed, at least not in the countries of origin (Czech republic and Slovakia). The idea is, that CSW should be universall dog, which you can use for anything - guarding, working, agility, sport, walking etc. Therefore, breeding only for beauty and not paying attention to other important characteristics, such as health, mental stability and working ability is not supported and strongly discouraged.
CSW will adapt to the conditions you make for him - he can live in the flat, as well in a house or outside kennel. Every CSW, no matter from where you buy him, will love to spend time with you and your family, because they are VERY social dogs.

You might find more tendencies to create "show dogs" as opposed to "working dogs" in Western Europe, but again, this is not good. The reason is not only as said above, but also because the foreign judges, who give the titles, very often do not know, how the CSW should look like. Some of them even preffer characteristics, that are actually fault against the standard in the breed! So you can find champions from western countries, that would receive only very good marks from experienced Slovak or Czech judge. What is such champion worth? Nothing.. As Nebulosa said, results of dog show do not say anything. Titles are nothing.

What matters, if you want to buy CSW for life, are different things. What matters are the hip dysplasia results of the puppy´s parents, the fact how good the breeder is in socialising and raising his puppies, the character of the puppy´s parents and also if the puppy is healthy and in good shape.

For a family dog, you don´t care if his ears are a bit longer, if his mask is not 100% or if the eyes not yellow enough. (That´s what matters if you want show dog, for example). But you don´t want to have as family dog a dog, who´s shy, sick, crippled or aggressive. So first of all, you have to exclude breeders, who breed on dogs shy or aggressive, not bonitated, not x-rayed for hip dysplasia, who produce many litters per year (cause they can´t have time to socialise) etc.

[dog_cooker]

Alright thank you, now I some what understand what type of breeder I have to look for. first is that its a CZW(wright's coefficient, wolf blood percentage, ancestor loss %, and pedigree), second is that the mother and father are in good health without hip dysplasia(bonitiation & HD assures this?), third is that its well raised, forth would be training titles. i still gotta teach myself about wright coefficent(genetic traits). Wolf blood is pretty obvious(read somewhere it has to be close to 35%). I would guess ancestor loss percentage would be the direct opposite of wolf blood.

Going back to my orginal question. I guess theres no "well known" breeders out there that meet all these standards or is it that theres too many? Are all the ones in the breeder list genuine CZW breeders?
(no hybrids) I only ask this cause it looks like any old shmoe can add a breeder to the list.

[Dharkwolf]

Allow me a few comments -

1) Ancestor loss coefficient has nothing to do with wolf blood. It is in fact an attempt to measure inbreeding (in this respect it is similar to the wright coefficient)

2) Wright Coefficient - like I said a measurement of inbreeding - my personal preferences? I would frown on having a dog in the last five generations with a wright coefficient of 5 or more, and would avoid anyone with a wright coefficient of 8 or more, but this is not a hard and fast rule. The important thing to remember about the wright coefficient is that the *total* wright coefficient is essentially meaningless - you have to look at the coefficient of each ancestor. Thus if a dog has 4 ancestors which each provide a wright coefficient of 2 - the total would be 8 but in my opinion that dog is fine. A dog which on the other hand has a single ancestor which gives a wright coefficient of 8 would be seriously inbred.

3) Wolf blood - we keep track of this mostly for the fun of it really - unlike what you might have read elsewhere, in practice it does not seem to correlate with any of the traits which you would expect. i.e. there is no correlation between wolf blood and wolfish appearance, or between wolf blood and wolf-like character traits (whatever those might be!). 35% wolf blood for a CSV is actually very high, I would be hard pressed to find an animal alive today with such a high wolf content 26-32% seems to be the typical range (though even that number can be a bit high)

As to whether there are well known breeders out there which meet all of your requirements? Possibly. Though people would most likely not agree on who those breeders would be. Unfortunately the breeders which I can think of that would fit into that category probably would never dream of shipping a pup to the US - there are very good reasons for not wanting to do this if you are a good breeder, i.e. you want to keep your breeding stock available for your lines, you want to be able to intervene if there are problems with your pups, you want to be on hand to give advice to the owners of your pups, you want to avoid there being too much hype about your dogs in a far off country... (we know of several distinct problems that CSVs encounter in the US, although ultimately it is up to your state veterinary authority, they seem to be usually considered wolf hybrids, and this has some important implications)

There is an interesting question - Are all the breeders on the list genuine CSV breeders? Well they all breed CSVs... unfortunately in the past there have been instances of breeders providing false information to wolfdog, which took some time to verify that a problem really existed. Where this has been found out those breeders have been removed from the list. You could say that the list is the best there is, but it cannot be taken as an absolute guarantee of anything.

My advice to you would be to wait and watch. Getting a wolfdog is not a decision to be taken lightly. If I had been properly informed I am not sure I would have ever gotten one... but then again I never really got one, rather I married a wolfdog breeder

So take your time, get to know more about the breed, ask questions, both in the forum and privately. CSVs can make great family dogs, I think both our bitches fall into that category (well, when they aren't trying to kill any guests which they have not been properly introduced to yet) but I also know of wolfdogs which are the kind of dog which you would never want to have as a family dog - for a variety of reasons.

Take your time, learn. Pup season is not really till November anyhow

[Mirkawolf]

Originally Posted by Dharkwolf

My advice to you would be to wait and watch. Getting a wolfdog is not a decision to be taken lightly. If I had been properly informed I am not sure I would have ever gotten one... but then again I never really got one, rather I married a wolfdog breeder

Just for info, we are NOT breeding at the moment. There will be no puppies from Vlci sen for several years. So this is NOT promotion of our kennel, just well meant advices.

[Rona]

Originally Posted by dog_cooker

Going back to my orginal question. I guess theres no "well known" breeders out there that meet all these standards or is it that theres too many? Are all the ones in the breeder list genuine CZW breeders?
(no hybrids) I only ask this cause it looks like any old shmoe can add a breeder to the list.

Mirka and Dharwolf are right and provdie you with good advice. Even reliable, "old" breeders happen to sell a 'faulty' pup among many healthy and nice ones, which doesn't mean that the breeder is dishonest, but e.g. some problems may appear later. On the other hand, "young" kennels may produce very interesting litters of unique matching, good characters and health. There are no rules. There were cases when several pups in some litters had HD problems, though the parents were X-rays and had A/0 results. Later it turned out that they all had the same ancestor somewhere in the lines with a HD problem.
Some CSV with relatively low "wolf blood content" are incredibly independent or shy, or have a tendency to run away, while others - with wolf genes close to 30% - are friendly creatures who love the whole world and enjoy being taken to every place - from a restaurant to a zoo. But again, this is not a rule, of course.

I'm not writing this to discourage you, but just to show you it's neither maths nor a checklist to tick off the items. People whom I know and who bought really lovely dogs devoted a few months (or sometimes even years) waiting for a particualr match. They visited the breeders, talked to them, watched how they treat the dogs and the pups, e.g. if they keep them in cages or at their homes - as part of the family and spend much time with them. They went to camps, observed the dogs during trainings, assessed their character, behaviour, studied show results etc. But again - a champion's title itself says nothing, since it could have been won at dog shows where there was no competition at all . I know fantastic dogs without many 'flashy' titles, because the owners have other priorities - interesting jobs, small kids, etc. and just want a companion at home or/and for work.

It's really incredible how much CSVs vary among themselves both in terms of appearance (colour, size, "face expression") and individuality. We had a CSV meeting a month ago, and after spending an hour or so among more than 10 dogs - the owners (even their kids) had no problems in recognising which is which even when they ran and played together in the garden like that:


Coming from the US you probably think in terms of "just do it" principle, which is perfect for effective business, but does not necessarily fit the context discussed above.. Excuse me for stereotyping, but I encouner this approach ever so often in my professional life! I don't criticsie it - just think it's not always the best way

[mijke]

Originally Posted by Dharkwolf

2) Wright Coefficient - like I said a measurement of inbreeding - my personal preferences? I would frown on having a dog in the last five generations with a wright coefficient of 5 or more, and would avoid anyone with a wright coefficient of 8 or more, but this is not a hard and fast rule.

Hi Dharkwolf

Sorry, but I don't understand
In the database of each dog is mentionend the total of the Wright Coefficient of all his ancestors in 5 generations.
And I always thought that the max avarage (total) WC was between 10 -15 % (like a lot of CsW, even yours and mine have)

And yes I understand your explanation about single ancestor which gives a high wright coefficient .

Maybe it is because of the language problem for me that I don't understand correct

[dog_cooker]

Thank you, you all have been very helpful.

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by dog_cooker

I was wondering if someone can tell me which are the oldest (been breeding CZW longest) or "best" breeders. Common sense tells me its one in the Czech Republic.

It is always hard to write about GOOD breeders but it is easy to write about the worstest... Be careful because also some "famous" breeders are now the worstest breeding mixes of unknow origin and crosses with other breeds and register the puppies as "purebreed CzW". So be careful expecially in Holland, France, Italy and Czech Republic... Some kennel names sounds famous but the breeders are just producers which make EVERTHING to earn so such many as possible...

[AMERICANI]

I have been attempting, with excrutiating patience, just to reserve 2 puppies from several breeders in Eastern Europe, Spain, Italy, etc... Am I always too late? I always get responses that all the dogs are sold. I will be in Italy until August and I would like to find a really nice pair of puppies for breeding in the US. As you can see from this thread, Americans are interested. I don't want anyone to speak for or against anyone on this open forum, but if you are on this site posting on this forum, you can look up -AmeriCani Kennels- and refer a litter (both Parents preferrably being excellent, 'A' hips/elbows , good working temperment, to standard...).
I want to bring the best to my country and breed in a responsible,ethical, & professional manner. I am asking for advice from others within the community (you have to ask questions in order to learn).If you are devout to the improvement of the breed, and would like to give some advice please do. I'll research everyone's opinions before making my own decision as to facilitate fairness. Thank you. Jason Young