CWD character?

[Blitzen]

Hello, I'm newly registered on this forum and this is my first post, so please be gentle with me . I've spent many hours reading this site and posts on this forum and there is so much good information here.

Over several years I have grown to love the sound of this breed, although I don't own one, so I'd like to know if I could actually live with one rather than admire them from afar. As a bit of background, I come from a working line GSD background and am currently training an east german gsd bitch in Schutzhund. She has her BH and we are working towards a Sch 1. So I am used to the GSD temprement.

If I were to get a CWD it would be in a few years time to replace my current dog as a sport dog when she retires. Now I realise that a CWD has a different temprement from my readings here, and it would probably not be a 'natural' at schutzhund like the gsd, and probably won't be competitive, but would it enjoy doing schutzhund together even if we don't win any prizes? I am not particularly competitve and just want to have fun and give my dog a 'job' which would develop our bond.

Also, my dog goes everywhere with me: visits family, comes to the restaurant and shops which allow it, on holiday etc. and I would like the wolfdog, with training, to do the same. We go on walking/trail holidays and I have the pleasure of having a well behaved, reliable off lead dog now. Can the CWD be obedient/reliable off lead, or is it too independent to be trusted, even with training?

And then the most difficult question: I am used to training gsds - I use the ball as the motivation/reward, together with food sometimes - Will CWD work for a toy as a reward if they have been brought up to play like this, or do they not care so much for toys? Do they enjoy playing fetch with a ball? If not, how would I have to modify my training method to suit a CWD?

Sorry about the long post, so many questions . . . Thank you to anyone who answers.

[Gypsy Wolf]

I come from a working Schutzhund background as well, and I can say, at least in my experience, the CsV is somewhere between the GSD and Malinois in energy level and intensity. Of course, I have a bitch puppy, and it's likely the males are a little more laid-back and sweet.
I use toys for reward as well and my CsV girl is just fine with that - and at just 15 weeks old! Food is good, too, but she seems to "last longer" in training with a prey toy rather than food.
I have both Malinois and a highline GSD, the CsV is less "sharp" than a Mal, but it is higher drive than my GSD - probably quite a lot like your working line GSD - that's what my CsV reminds me of, actually. She is extraordinarily "bitey" very prey-driven and has a very natural calm full grip - something highly prized in SchH. She is much more "serious" than my GSD, so expect some civil drive as she matures. This is not a breed for the average home, but an excellent choice for a working home - especially one with experience with workingline GSD.

[soniakanavle]

In regards to training methods, my CsV is very food AND toy motivated but I would say food would be number one, especially for a 'high value' treat, such as meat or cheese, you will have their rapt attention. [Though I just taught my 5 year old male 'high five' in about 30 seconds for one lousy Milkbone so anythings possible lol.] And he does LOVE a good squeaky toy!!
My GSD was wayyy more toy motivated though, she would do anything for her tennis ball or stick and would do what I asked of her for a treat as well but then wouldn't even take the treat [or take it an spit it out lol.] Wolfdogs want the reward more than the sheer pleasure of satisfying you I think.
They're a very intelligent and energetic [and awesome] breed and I think they would excel in Schutzhund or any job you give them.
Good luck with your wolfdog dreams!!

[Blitzen]

Thanks for the helpful replies so far!

Luna's mum, do you think that Luna will be as responsive as a gsd to the control element on the Schutzhund field after her drives have been built up eg running the hides, outing the sleeve etc? Has teaching the obedience element eg retrieve been more challenging or if you haven't got to that stage do you anticipate it being more challenging than a gsd? Don't mind having to work harder to train my dog, just want to be prepared!

Also I was wondering how these dogs do in everyday walks off leash, are they a challenge to keep close to you, recall? I think I am right in saying they would be harder work than gsds in this respect, but are they as independent as eg huskies off the lead?

[soniakanavle]

Originally Posted by Blitzen

Also I was wondering how these dogs do in everyday walks off leash, are they a challenge to keep close to you, recall? I think I am right in saying they would be harder work than gsds in this respect, but are they as independent as eg huskies off the lead?

Haha harder than a GSD for sure but nowhere near a flighty as a husky!! You're right on spot.
I keep mine on a leash at all times in city of course but let him run free whenever we're out in the country in a SAFE place. [I live in the northwest and don't want a rancher mistaking him for a wolf. It's legal to kill them up here, so sad. ]
He has a pretty good recall but definitely gets that wild look in his eyes in the woods like he wants to stay there forever lol but he always comes back to me and hops in his truck so I trust him off leash. Work a lot with your pup when it's young though to get a really reliable recall though, I think that's true for any breed.

[Rona]

Originally Posted by Blitzen

Also I was wondering how these dogs do in everyday walks off leash, are they a challenge to keep close to you, recall? I think I am right in saying they would be harder work than gsds in this respect, but are they as independent as eg huskies off the lead?

We live in a big city, but we're lucky because near our house there is a huge common - a 50-hectare meadow, where people take their dogs to socialize them with other friendly dogs.
We've been taking there our girl almost every day since we've got her and she has lots of dog and human friends there. Here are photos from 2009 where you can see how she interacted with dogs of various breeds. http://picasaweb.google.pl/rpaszkows...aCronicle2009#. These are from 2010:
http://picasaweb.google.pl/rpaszkows...aCronicle2010#

The photos aren't very good technically and rather boring , but I suppose they might be good material for a behaviourist or for somebody who is interested in all dogs' and particularly vlcaks' body language and interaction patterns.
Of course, when Lorka was little we worked a lot on the recall and it wasn't easy at all; probably due to the fact that she was extremely friendly and not shy at all - the 'kamikaze' sort of pup that loved playing with all dogs, even the rottweilers at which owners of other "Blonia dogs" panicked , but when I now call her she comes without any problem, though at Blonia not always as fast as we would wish. The command works much better in other, less familiar places. I suppose dogs treat Blonia as their playground and to certain extent this factor spoils their obedience, but we analyzed our priorities and decided that good socialization was more important for us than perfect, exam- type obedience.
Here is another link to photos of vlcaks meetings in our city: http://picasaweb.google.pl/rpaszkows...lcaksMeetings#

Of course I wouldn't let her off-leash in the streets (I'm more than sure she'd run to her beloved Bernese blindly ) but our other vlcak, Tina [*], started walking everywhere unleashed by our side when she was around 11.

[hanninadina]

Nice pictures, but have polish people only have big dogs? Looks like. Rona, isn´t your csw not a young one about now 1,5 year old?

I am asking this because seeing this pictures people who does not know the breed csw can belive that they are always without problems with other dogs on dogplaygrounds. In the german forum we just discuss this and the majority wrote that getting adult the csw is not playful with other dogs. Pavel wrote in concrete the only pack for your csw is your own pack. That must be said, csw with the age from around 2,5, 3 years are not able to play with others dogs, they do not like them.

I am wondering that an adult csw will be playful on toys. I can not belive. But Blitzen there are "working" lines in csw. CSW which their owners do work Schutzhund and other things. Good choice and good luck.

Christian

[GalomyOak]

Originally Posted by hanninadina

Nice pictures, but have polish people only have big dogs? Looks like. Rona, isn´t your csw not a young one about now 1,5 year old?

I am asking this because seeing this pictures people who does not know the breed csw can belive that they are always without problems with other dogs on dogplaygrounds. In the german forum we just discuss this and the majority wrote that getting adult the csw is not playful with other dogs. Pavel wrote in concrete the only pack for your csw is your own pack. That must be said, csw with the age from around 2,5, 3 years are not able to play with others dogs, they do not like them.

I am wondering that an adult csw will be playful on toys. I can not belive. But Blitzen there are "working" lines in csw. CSW which their owners do work Schutzhund and other things. Good choice and good luck.

Christian

I think it is different for different dogs...

I wouldn't trust my female, Anthea in a dog park (loose). She wants to be above all other dogs (especially females) - period. She has excellent recall, and when in the "heel" position on or off lead, she won't go anywhere, it doesn't matter where we are. My almost 3 year-old male, Roni, I would trust with almost any dog, as long as there isn't a female in heat. Same with his sister Ice - but they don't have quite as perfect recall - it's good, but not perfect. My younger male is rough but playful, fairly decent recall...but is just a week shy of being 1 year old - they do definitely change around 2 years, especially females - it's a big reason to wait to breed until they older, to see what they are "really" like. But it looks like, in some of the photos from summer camps, some older dogs are able to integrate with other unfamiliar dogs - maybe with some waiting time? It is something to be thoughtful of, for sure.

All of my dogs are very motivated by food, but my older male, Roni, is far more motivated by his favorite toy...it's an obscession.

Marcy

[Blitzen]

Thanks everyone, so what you are saying is that with the right dedicated training I should end up with a csw which is reasonably reliable off the lead in the countryside. That is good news because I don't think I could enjoy nature walks with a dog which had to be kept on the lead.

Rona, these are really cool pictures, especially the last ones of the csws playing together.

[Rona]

Originally Posted by hanninadina

Nice pictures, but have polish people only have big dogs? Looks like.

You mean big in size? No, Polish people also own small dogs, as you can see here:
http://picasaweb.google.pl/rpaszkows...43653242629570
http://picasaweb.google.pl/rpaszkows...92271262558658
http://picasaweb.google.pl/rpaszkows...73269514164402

Originally Posted by hanninadina

Rona, isn´t your csw not a young one about now 1,5 year old?

Yes, Lorelei is close to 22 months now, but she's not our first CSV. Before we owned Tina for 14 years.

Originally Posted by hanninadina

I am asking this because seeing this pictures people who does not know the breed csw can belive that they are always without problems with other dogs on dogplaygrounds. In the german forum we just discuss this and the majority wrote that getting adult the csw is not playful with other dogs. Pavel wrote in concrete the only pack for your csw is your own pack.

I suppose you're right and the majority of CSV cannot run freely in public places, but I agree with Marcy, that some are able to.

However,
1. I was told and could observe myself several times that if a young CSV made friends with other dogs, established the hierarchy and met them more or less regularly, these relationships tended to "survive" after the CSV matured. That's one of the reasons why we put so much emphasis on socialisation.
I was hoping my post and the links might help new or potential owners realize how important this was.

2. I should also think that CSVs that live in dog packs might have more of a "us and them" attitude, thus are more hostile towards dogs from outside their pack, than a CSV that lives among 'human pack' only.

Originally Posted by hanninadina

That must be said, csw with the age from around 2,5, 3 years are not able to play with others dogs, they do not like them.

Christian, I wonder why your statements are always so definite in tone, even when you're writing about your personal experiences?

I'm far too humble to claim that I'm 100% sure my CSV will be always as good with dogs as she is now, but I've met a few CSVs that contradict your opinion. Here is a male CSV we occasionaly meet at Błonia. The owners are careful when dominant males are around, but the dog has very good recall, so this is not a real problem. NB Marcy had a chance to meet him last year and may confirm that he's still quite playful although 5 years old now.

Rona, these are really cool pictures, especially the last ones of the csws playing together.

Thanks, I'm glad you liked them.

[Gypsy Wolf]

Regarding the above post about a CsV's obedience on the SchH field once it has been taught exercises - I think that would depend entirely on the dog, handler and how it has been trained. My girl is very young, but quite intense, and I suspect I will see some "civil" or "defense" drive in her soon. She had a male helper work her for the first time this weekend and she was much more "serious" than she normally is with the female helper working her. Her little body was tense and she was not "playing" so much - she was seriously watching the male helper. I will have to make sure we channel this appropriately.

[soniakanavle]

Hey Rona, love the pictures too!! So happy to see happy Wolfdogs playing!

Originally Posted by Rona

I suppose you're right and the majority of CSV cannot run freely in public places, but I agree with Marcy, that some are able to.
[font=Verdana]
However,
1. I was told and could observe myself several times that if a young CSV made friends with other dogs, established the hierarchy and met them more or less regularly, these relationships tended to "survive" after the CSV matured. That's one of the reasons why we put so much emphasis on socialisation.
I was hoping my post and the links might help new or potential owners realize how important this was.

I definitely noticed that with my boy, he was very social and loved all other dogs and playing with everyone, especially his 'pack' [my family's dogs] and had no problems at our daily visit to the dog park up until he was about 1 1/2 to 2 years old. Then his behavior changed even though our routine didn't. He started sticking closer to me instead of playing with other dogs [except for his steady friends] and nowadays, at 5 years old, he doesn't like meeting new dogs very much [he's very territorial] but he still LOVES his original 'pack' [his family/all the dogs he met when he was young] and is always SO excited to see them throughout the years. He accepts new dogs after a couple meetings but not on first sight, like my moms new Newfoundland pup, Flint was annoyed with at first but accepeted him after he made sure he showed his dominace. [Good thing cause now at 1 year old, the Newfie TOWERS over Flint but he still acts tiny around him! ]
Also I've noticed that he generally gets along better with other male dogs, though I was told they would get along better with the opposite sex.
Is there much of a different in how males and females get along normally??
Flint gets along great with other intact males his age with never a slightest problem but once a Great Dane bitch [in heat even!] came a little too close to his food bowl and he got pretty mad at her!!! Pretty silly I think.
Except for my GSD bitch.They were inseparable from the moment they met. To him, she was his mother/sister/mentor/bestfriend/lover and he idolized her. Even in her failing years, when she couldn't keep up with him anymore, when roughhousing he would slow down and let her 'catch' him and instantly drop to the ground and roll over at the slightest touch of her teeth to his scruff. They were a great pair and I'm really thinking of getting another GSD or CsV soon to fill the emptiness she left behind. RIP.

Flint enjoying glorious snowy snowy freedom.

Playing on the beach with some of his friends, Chezwick, a McNab and Toast, a Staffordshire Bull Terrier.

Flint and Jackyl, my GSD.

[Rona]

Originally Posted by soniakanavle

Also I've noticed that he generally gets along better with other male dogs, though I was told they would get along better with the opposite sex.
Is there much of a different in how males and females get along normally??

Lovely photos!
As Christian stated I'm too inexperienced to discuss this matter but I've noticed that since Lorka was around 16-17 months she started showing preferences - she likes some dogs more than others. She loves the "old friends" which she has probably close to a 100 , and all the new ones that she meets which are not afraid of her. The sex, size, age does not matter at all. So far she has two dogs towards which she shows hostility and growls "seriously" at them: a 5 year-old male greyhound and a 2-year old female labrador. The only thing they have in common is that they both visibly show fear when she approaches them.

With Tina we had similar experienced to yours with Flint. Tina used to be very friendly when a pup, then, when maturing - we had to be careful with unknown dogs, but when she was around 6 - 7 she could be trusted again. When seeing a new dog, she used to slowly approach him/her wagging her tail, if the dog returned frindship, they played together, if showed hostility, she walked away with her tail up, sometimes growling. During her lifetime she had just a few incidents with other dogs, never really serious. But she had a few enemies which she really hated and we had to be careful.

[Rona]

Originally Posted by hanninadina

the majority wrote that getting adult the csw is not playful with other dogs. Pavel wrote in concrete the only pack for your csw is your own pack. That must be said, csw with the age from around 2,5, 3 years are not able to play with others dogs, they do not like them.

So how can you explain our yesterday meeting of nine wolfdogs of various age from 4 months to 5 years? Most of them didn't know (or hardly knew) each other earlier! Again, I'm not saying that ALL wolfdogs would play like this, but definietly SOME are able to. It probably depends on many factors including massive socialization, training and genetics (?), but I just wanted to point, that it's not impossible.

The oldest male played with a male puppy




Meeting of two males (5 and 2,5)







An "alien" survived


And the best part of the walk:


Guess, who was the busiest person during the meeting...

...our Moderator

[GalomyOak]

Originally Posted by Rona

So how can you explain our yesterday meeting of nine wolfdogs of various age from 4 months to 5 years? Most of them didn't know (or hardly knew) each other earlier! Again, I'm not saying that ALL wolfdogs would play like this, but definietly SOME are able to. It probably depends on many factors including massive socialization, training and genetics (?), but I just wanted to point, that it's not impossible.

The oldest male played with a male puppy

Oh, this brings back such wonderful memories of last Easter! I miss you guys soooo much! Lovely photos!

[Rona]

Originally Posted by GalomyOak

Oh, this brings back such wonderful memories of last Easter! I miss you guys soooo much!

We miss you too, Marcy. Very much! (...including Lorka )

[elf]

Originally Posted by Rona

So how can you explain our yesterday meeting of nine wolfdogs of various age from 4 months to 5 years? Most of them didn't know (or hardly knew) each other earlier! Again, I'm not saying that ALL wolfdogs would play like this, but definietly SOME are able to. It probably depends on many factors including massive socialization, training and genetics (?), but I just wanted to point, that it's not impossible.

Well, same for us, we met at 8 CsV with not a single problem (almost all dogs did not know eachother before), dogs were off leash and we could see how huge is their communication world (troubles often come from the other side of the leash...) : http://www.amicale-chien-loup-tcheco....php?article33

[soniakanavle]

Originally Posted by Rona

An "alien" survived

Hahahahaha such a great photo!!!