The CSV a working breed - how do I understand the codes - Page 3

Pavel · 29-09-2007, 07:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nebulosa

Only Czech and Slovak's judges can judge these working tests?

Practically yes, theoretically is possible for everybody, who satisfy the conditions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nebulosa

These working titles have something with the CzW breed?

No. Its czech and slovakian tests for all dogs generally.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nebulosa

At test ZVP3 really isn't any dog breed who can do that, can be that lack informations for me but I never hear about other breed that no CZW with ZVP3, for GSD's have the AD (Ausdauerprüfung) which is resistence test, but is only 20km...

ZVP are AD tests as well. Its very sorry, that slovakian club and some people in czech club as well pus the ZVP test like a "working test". ZVP is pure AD test (test of endurance), is hard (especially ZVP3) but nothing to do with work or working gens or working talent of dog.

wolfin · 29-09-2007, 10:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pavel

ZVP are AD tests as well. Its very sorry, that slovakian club and some people in czech club as well pus the ZVP test like a "working test". ZVP is pure AD test (test of endurance), is hard (especially ZVP3) but nothing to do with work or working gens or working talent of dog.

BUT this test (only) cann say about good wolfdogs condition-wolfdogs mas have condition from long running.and...if wolfdogs not have good anatomy-he is not working dog

latter cann testing hes working posibility.

michaelundinaeichhorn · 29-09-2007, 11:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfin

BUT this test (only) cann say about good wolfdogs condition-wolfdogs mas have condition from long running.and...if wolfdogs not have good anatomy-he is not working dog

latter cann testing hes working posibility.

Exactly!
Plus there are more ways to work a dog than IPO.

Ina

Pavel · 29-09-2007, 18:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfin

if wolfdogs not have good anatomy-he is not working dog

latter cann testing hes working posibility.

Its not true 100%.
First
ZVP dont testing the anathomy, but endurance only. I know minimally about 1 example, when CsW with HD D(3/3) make a run test on 80 km. But such dog cant be good working dog, because for him will be soon or later problem to e.g. jumpig.

Second
Testing of anatomy is not working test !!! When you understand it so, then is working test HD test as well or bonitation. Working test testing how the dog working. Ina is true, that is not only IPO. Is SchH, ZVV, TART, IRO etc. but all this tests testing really working talent and gens. Endurance must have dog by the highest working test as well (did you any seen dog after SPT2 test ?). Working tests just automatically testing the endurance of dogs. Am not against ZVP test, am only against, when such test is recognised as working test.

Nebulosa · 29-09-2007, 20:18

A good working dog must have an excelent body construction for work without problems.
Imagine a heavy and displasic dog searching for lost people in one mountain with deep florest, normally he not will work 1/4 of the others healty dogs, after some working time he will only turn in more one "victim" who will need help making the people who work lost the precious time.
Different for sport dogs who only will work in test and training.
Endurance isn't exactly a working test, but is too, endurance nor test the behaviour of the dog, but test the body capacity for the dog work, too important as behaviour in a real situation.
A yung displasic dog can of course run all this, this dog must have strong muscles for not fell the problem and run all this, but when we talk about working dogs, this displasic dog will have a really little utile working time life, different of a healty dog with perfect body construction ( for endurance) that will work without problems even have his 9 or 10 years (normally dogs stop work with 8 years old).
No one working test are perfect, all they have little defects who can leave pass problematic dogs, one good exemple are some schutzhund GSD's who are very beautifull at work but aren't capable to take a bandit if needed, because they only bite the sleeve and continue bite the sleeve even when the bandit run away, won't be different with endurance tests.

michaelundinaeichhorn · 29-09-2007, 20:46

And I know a great lot of GSD that are great at SCHH for some years but not able to run 40 km and not able to do rescue work because of there body incapabillity. Most of them don´t get older than 8-9 years. And I know several CSW that would have the same problems all of them out of breeding lines that didn´t find the endurance runs necessary, it is only a question of time till the GSD selection methods will bring the same results.

Ina

Pavel · 29-09-2007, 22:13

All arguments only support, that ZVP is a great endurance test. Fact, that working dog need a endurance too (not only) is same true, like that grass is green. But as I wrote - working dog need not only endurance, but healthy hips, good nose, excellent teeth, healthy heart etc. But its no argument, that teeth test, EKG or HD test are the working tests !!! Working test means generally test, which testing the final possibility of using the dog by work. ZVP test says only one - dog have one of the 100 basic qualification to POSSIBLE TO BE a working dog. Nothing more. Howg

Nebulosa · 29-09-2007, 23:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pavel

All arguments only support, that ZVP is a great endurance test. Fact, that working dog need a endurance too (not only) is same true, like that grass is green. But as I wrote - working dog need not only endurance, but healthy hips, good nose, excellent teeth, healthy heart etc. But its no argument, that teeth test, EKG or HD test are the working tests !!! Working test means generally test, which testing the final possibility of using the dog by work. ZVP test says only one - dog have one of the 100 basic qualification to POSSIBLE TO BE a working dog. Nothing more. Howg

I agree with you, but...
Imagine, already have "show lines" and "working lines" in some breeds, supose that we classified AD and ZVP in one new class, the " Endurance class" will appear "breeders" breeding "endurance lines", how caotic will be!
Is better leave that as is now.

michaelundinaeichhorn · 30-09-2007, 06:22

As long as there are countries that breed CSW for generations without endurance tests there are good reasons to keep it that way.

Ina

Ori · 01-10-2007, 20:01

Hi
Nebulosa - could you please translate also ZZO exam for me?
Thanks for all the transtations - that's a great job done!
Thanx

Nebulosa · 02-10-2007, 02:49

Ops, I really forgoth the ZZO

ZZO - Licence of basic obedience
1.Minimal age 10 months
2.For the participation isn’t needed another title.
3.The commands mark on the regulament are:
Z = Acoustic
P = Manual
If the regulation mark the two, can be used one of then ( or acustic or manual) or the two ( acustic and manual)

Obedience:
a) Callback - ZP (max. 10 points)
b) Walk with leash - ZP (max.10 points)
c) Sit, down (at foot with leash) - ZP (max. 10 points)
d) Stay down in motion - ZP (max.10 points)
e) Retrieving ( handler's object) - ZP (max.10 points)
f) Stay down (15 fets) - ZP (max.10 points)
Maximum 60 points, minimal 42
ZP = Accustic / Manual

Special exercises
a) Callback in hard conditions - ZP
b) Dog's comportament in a group of persons - ZP
c) Dog's comportament when moore and leaves alone for little time - ZP

The judgement of Special exercises:

a) Callback in hard conditions
- quickly reaction at comand and back in right line for the handler, little imperfection at end - EXCELENT
- Second or third comand, back slow and not right - SUFFICIENT
- The dog not back after the tird comand - INSUFFICIENT

b) Dog's comportament in a group of persons
- The dog stay sit calm at foot of the handler, and as this stay at the arriving of other people - EXCELENT
- The dog in the arriving of another person be uneasy but turn calm at the handler's comand - SUFFICIENT
- The dog at the arriving of another person be uneasy showing fear or agressivity, for tranquilising need the repetion of the comand which the dog not react right - INSUFFICIENT

c) Dog's comportament when moore and leaves alone for little time
- The dog stay calm when meet the judge, after be leave alone the dog continue calm, not turn fearfull nor agressive when meet people or other dogs who pass close and stay observing - EXCELENT
- the dog be a little bit nervous when meet the judge, after be leave alone start bark all time, bark at the people who pass close without attack - SUFFICIENT
- The dog turn agressive wanting attack the judge, after be leave alone the dog turn a lot nervous, try attack the people and dogs who pass close - INSUFFICIENT

For obtain with sucess the Special exercices part the dog must get SUFFICIENT at least in two Special exercices in one of the three exercices the dog can get INSUFFICIENT .

Ori · 03-10-2007, 23:35

Thanks a lot

01-10-2007, 20:01	#50
Ori Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Poznań, Poland Posts: 1,471	Hi Nebulosa - could you please translate also ZZO exam for me? Thanks for all the transtations - that's a great job done! Thanx __________________ www.jantarowawataha.pl

02-10-2007, 02:49	#51
Nebulosa Moderator Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Rio Grande do Sul Posts: 1,334	Ops, I really forgoth the ZZO ZZO - Licence of basic obedience 1.Minimal age 10 months 2.For the participation isn’t needed another title. 3.The commands mark on the regulament are: Z = Acoustic P = Manual If the regulation mark the two, can be used one of then ( or acustic or manual) or the two ( acustic and manual) Obedience: a) Callback - ZP (max. 10 points) b) Walk with leash - ZP (max.10 points) c) Sit, down (at foot with leash) - ZP (max. 10 points) d) Stay down in motion - ZP (max.10 points) e) Retrieving ( handler's object) - ZP (max.10 points) f) Stay down (15 fets) - ZP (max.10 points) Maximum 60 points, minimal 42 ZP = Accustic / Manual Special exercises a) Callback in hard conditions - ZP b) Dog's comportament in a group of persons - ZP c) Dog's comportament when moore and leaves alone for little time - ZP The judgement of Special exercises: a) Callback in hard conditions - quickly reaction at comand and back in right line for the handler, little imperfection at end - EXCELENT - Second or third comand, back slow and not right - SUFFICIENT - The dog not back after the tird comand - INSUFFICIENT b) Dog's comportament in a group of persons - The dog stay sit calm at foot of the handler, and as this stay at the arriving of other people - EXCELENT - The dog in the arriving of another person be uneasy but turn calm at the handler's comand - SUFFICIENT - The dog at the arriving of another person be uneasy showing fear or agressivity, for tranquilising need the repetion of the comand which the dog not react right - INSUFFICIENT c) Dog's comportament when moore and leaves alone for little time - The dog stay calm when meet the judge, after be leave alone the dog continue calm, not turn fearfull nor agressive when meet people or other dogs who pass close and stay observing - EXCELENT - the dog be a little bit nervous when meet the judge, after be leave alone start bark all time, bark at the people who pass close without attack - SUFFICIENT - The dog turn agressive wanting attack the judge, after be leave alone the dog turn a lot nervous, try attack the people and dogs who pass close - INSUFFICIENT For obtain with sucess the Special exercices part the dog must get SUFFICIENT at least in two Special exercices in one of the three exercices the dog can get INSUFFICIENT . Last edited by Nebulosa; 02-10-2007 at 02:54. Reason: write what is in italic

03-10-2007, 23:35	#52
Ori Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Poznań, Poland Posts: 1,471	Thanks a lot __________________ www.jantarowawataha.pl

29-09-2007, 20:18	#45
Nebulosa Moderator Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Rio Grande do Sul Posts: 1,334	A good working dog must have an excelent body construction for work without problems. Imagine a heavy and displasic dog searching for lost people in one mountain with deep florest, normally he not will work 1/4 of the others healty dogs, after some working time he will only turn in more one "victim" who will need help making the people who work lost the precious time. Different for sport dogs who only will work in test and training. Endurance isn't exactly a working test, but is too, endurance nor test the behaviour of the dog, but test the body capacity for the dog work, too important as behaviour in a real situation. A yung displasic dog can of course run all this, this dog must have strong muscles for not fell the problem and run all this, but when we talk about working dogs, this displasic dog will have a really little utile working time life, different of a healty dog with perfect body construction ( for endurance) that will work without problems even have his 9 or 10 years (normally dogs stop work with 8 years old). No one working test are perfect, all they have little defects who can leave pass problematic dogs, one good exemple are some schutzhund GSD's who are very beautifull at work but aren't capable to take a bandit if needed, because they only bite the sleeve and continue bite the sleeve even when the bandit run away, won't be different with endurance tests.

29-09-2007, 20:46	#46
michaelundinaeichhorn Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Bad Dürkheim Posts: 2,249	And I know a great lot of GSD that are great at SCHH for some years but not able to run 40 km and not able to do rescue work because of there body incapabillity. Most of them don´t get older than 8-9 years. And I know several CSW that would have the same problems all of them out of breeding lines that didn´t find the endurance runs necessary, it is only a question of time till the GSD selection methods will bring the same results. Ina

29-09-2007, 22:13	#47
Pavel Moderator Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 2,190	All arguments only support, that ZVP is a great endurance test. Fact, that working dog need a endurance too (not only) is same true, like that grass is green. But as I wrote - working dog need not only endurance, but healthy hips, good nose, excellent teeth, healthy heart etc. But its no argument, that teeth test, EKG or HD test are the working tests !!! Working test means generally test, which testing the final possibility of using the dog by work. ZVP test says only one - dog have one of the 100 basic qualification to POSSIBLE TO BE a working dog. Nothing more. Howg

30-09-2007, 06:22	#49
michaelundinaeichhorn Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Bad Dürkheim Posts: 2,249	As long as there are countries that breed CSW for generations without endurance tests there are good reasons to keep it that way. Ina