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Sport & training Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs as working dogs - how to train, how to teach new elements, information about competitions and training seminars... |
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24-11-2002, 18:01 | #1 |
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Dogs with certificate
Hi.
The list of dogs with certificate show a lot of "codes" like ZM, ZVV 1, ZVV 2, ZOP, ZUP, ZV1 etc. What is the meaning of each code, anyone please :-) --- Per Olav |
24-11-2002, 18:31 | #2 | |
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Dogs with certificate
Hello,
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explain it simply. First of all. The most easiest is the ZOP exam which includes parts of very simple obedience (like waking with the dog on and without leash, sit-down and etc.). ZOP is exactly the same like internation rescue exam - RESCUE DOG SUITABILITY Test (RH-E) but without tracking. The ZV1 (or VZ1) is a test (not a real certificate) for rescue dogs in Czech Republic and it's endurance test (the owner on the bike and the dog have to cover a distance of 20km within about 2h). The other certificates, that is: ZM, ZVV1, ZVV2, ZPU1 and ZPU2 include obedience and already some parts of protection work and tracking work. The easiest among these are ZPU1 (by ZPU1 you don't have real protection work but just guarding of owner's object or simply tracking - you can choose one of those two tests) and ZM. The most advanced are ZVV exams and could be compared to international IPO or SchH exams but have some slight differences (for example you may use both type of commands such as: voice and optical commands, in IPO and SchH you may use voice OR optical commands). I would say that ZVV are a little bit easier than the international exams because they are not judges so severe as the international ones. But to simplify anything you could say that ZVV1 is like IPO1 and ZVV3 like IPO3. Greetings, Przemek |
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24-11-2002, 18:49 | #3 | |
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Dogs with certificate
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difficult then IPO3 or SchH3. Eva |
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24-11-2002, 19:50 | #4 | |
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Dogs with certificate
Hello Eva,
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the greatest differences, I think, are in the method how specific parts of the exam are being carred out and are being judged. You can show the dog every command with hands and also say the command during ZVV3 (it would result in penalty point in IPO3). You cannnot give commands to the dog when changing direction during IPO and SchH (it's acceptable for ZVV). And also the judges during ZVV, as I observed, do not apply such big attention as IPO judges to the principle that every command should be executed with happiness. There is ever a non-official regulation in IPO that the dog can maximaly get 90 points of 100 possible for obedience part if all parts were made 100%correctly but were done without visible satisfaction of the dog. Other example is the tracking part: sure the track is longer and older for ZVV3 than for IPO3 (about 1000m and 3h old for ZVV3 and 600m and 1h old for IPO3) but during IPO3 it is required that the dog goes all the time with its nose by the ground and every single raising of the head can be assessed with penalty point. In ZVV the more important is the result of the whole tracking not the style (I don't say the style is unimportant but it's sure less important than in IPO). Simple said ZVV checks how the dog mastered all parts of exam and IPO required additionaly that all parts should be made showily. From the dog handler IPO requires a 100% self-control (without any unnecessary moves). Greetings, Przemek |
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24-11-2002, 20:41 | #5 |
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Dogs with certificate
One important thing: this year FCI approved the exams prepared by the
Slovakian Wolfdog Club specially for CzW. I mean here endurance tests SV1 (40 km), SV2 (70 km) and SV3 (100km). Greetings, Margo
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24-11-2002, 20:44 | #6 |
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Dogs with certificate
Hi, all,
I join Per Olav voice and request the more complete answer, even if it's a long one!!! 8-) We, in France, are on the way to propose tests for CsV, we NEED your help, czech and slovak people, in order to be compliant with YOUR regulation! Thanks in advance Philippe |
24-11-2002, 21:32 | #7 | |
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Dogs with certificate
Hi Przemek,
so once again. Quote:
allowed only one command (defined in rule). IPO is "theater" for people ( precise, you must know how many steps you go, dog must be happy...). Not for CSW, I think :0). I never saw so happy obedience in CSW. Czech national exam are diffucult. And have you ever seen some ZVV2 or ZVV3? For me dog with ZVV2 is better than dog with IPO 4 :0). Eva |
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24-11-2002, 21:52 | #8 | |
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Dogs with certificate
Quote:
http://www.wolfdog.org/php/modules.p...e=certificates Greetings, Margo
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24-11-2002, 22:59 | #9 | |||||
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Dogs with certificate
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kazdého cviku zkratkou Z=povel zvukový, P=povel posunkový. Pokud zkusební rád uvádí obe zkratky, muze psovod pouzít jednoho z povelu nebo oba soucastne." and yes in obedience and tracking part you may use only voice commands but the whole protection work may be done with voice and optical commands together (in IPO you use only voice OR optical commands). Here is a comparision of some parts of IPO2 and ZVV2: - In IPO2 every exercise is more complex and not executing a small part of every exercise have big influence on the number of points. In ZVV2 every "simple" exercise is divided in smaller one and every such part is rated separately. For example: sit-down-up, barking, "come here" command and etc. are in ZVV2 separate commands and in IPO are parts of bigger exercises (for sit-down-up in ZVV you'll get 10 points, in IPO you'll get much less for the same action because it's just part of bigger exercise which is also rated with 10 points). - In IPO2 you have some additional exercises and your dog should do also: * walking on the leash * leaving the dog with coming back (in ZVV2 is only leaving and the owner comes back) * aport through A-hrudle (in ZVV2 the dog goes through the hrudle but don't have to aport) * simple aport of 1kg object * sending away with lying down (at distance) - in ZVV2 you just have sending away and coming back Quote:
IPO is natural for the dogs but whether it's harder or not than ZVV. It is a kind of sport and you have to accept the rules. This "theater" means that both the dog and owner have to do the commands perfectly and some of them have to be made "unnaturaly" and it does afford more from the owner and dog because of it. And don't forget the german precision )) There are exact arrangements how every exercise should be judged and there is no place for different interpretation of the judge. The ZVV leaves the judge much more room for his own judgement. Quote:
dogs. Do you really think that the dogs are really happy during the training. It is just a question of a very, very hard work of the dog and the owner. Quote:
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competition in Roudnice and Lazne Belohrad. According to the points ALL dogs which started in IPO1 competition wouldn't pass the exam because none of them passed the 70 points mark (and the same dogs got enough points on the ZVV1 competition in Roudnice to pass it). And further with one exception all of them would have serious problems with passing obedience in IPO1. And I don't think it's a problem of CSW but of the owners who focus on the free-style of the ZVV regulation and not on precision required by IPO... Greetings, Przemek |
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25-11-2002, 10:12 | #10 | ||
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Dogs with certificate
Hi Przemek,
It's nice that twoo theorists discused here So, I think ZVV is more useful for practice than IPO.That's all. Quote:
kennels. Sad. But it's another part of book......not about CSW. Quote:
in LB was big tragicomedy. Dog handlers ( not all) read rules of IPO in the evening before competition...... And differences in obedience between IPO1 -3 are very small. In ZVV are some special exercise- not so easy. Finally, I prefered czech exam ( I'm nationalist :0)). And the last - how many CSW have IPO3 or ZVV 2 (3)? It's reality. CSW are working dogs, but you must have great patience and use your brain. Compar CSW and GS working ability....:0) GS or BS are much more better for sport. That's all. I'm only theorist but realist. have a nice day Eva |
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25-11-2002, 10:50 | #11 | ||
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Dogs with certificate
Hi Eva,
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which shows self in LB makes a regulary training with own wolfdogs. And they want to show, how far just are. Its little bit unpolite to make fun from this people (please, dont understand it so, that I wrote it, because I was a participant). Competition is for me (and as I know for majority of participants in LB) the chance to show, what my wolfdog are trained. Never will be perfect, but I think, that everybody by this competition shows the effort to be good with own wolfdogs and every wolfdog shows by some parts of competition, that CsW can reach the best position. And, that some people read the IPO rules first before competition ? Its absolutely true and you can see from it, that nobody understand the IPO competition like a question of life or death. Simply our dogs doing something are on some level of training and basicaly is doesnt matter, according which rules is the competition. Sure, we can discuss about it, if the competition make like a officialy or only like a internal Club competition. But its just another thema. Please dont make fun from the people, which something doing with own wolfdogs and have so much courage, that although are not perfect, want to show something. Critique outside the competition ring is very simple and easy ... Quote:
today can be in working class in show a dog with 40 km run only, without any obedience or other working knowledges ? And that this trend is pushing up in Czech club as well ? Thanks Pavel |
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25-11-2002, 11:53 | #12 | ||
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Dogs with certificate
Hi Pavel
I was awaited yours reaction. For me it's quite difficult explain you my opinions in english. But I try it.Shortly, becouse I must do some more important things. IPO in LB was tragicomedy when we compered it with Roudnice. It's clear. Quote:
working.......it's impossible compared GS and CSW. If I want really working dog (who is quite easy to train - of course, it isn't so easy and if I want be really good in dog-sport) I NEVER BUY CSW !!!!!! Quote:
It's your fight. My opinion is that in working class must be dog's who have exam which consist of obedience,tracking and defence. It's my opinion. But I mean for champions titul is ZOP or VZ sufficient - and of course CAC, but not only 2, like today. I can imagine yours reaction - yours citation of rules etc. But for me working class and champions titul are different things. My dog have only ZOP and VZ1 now - and were in Nitra in working class......but he can go without leash :0). sorry, my english it's not so good and discussionswith Pavel are neverending stories. Eva |
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25-11-2002, 13:25 | #13 | |
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Dogs with certificate
Hi Ann,
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its really only run, nothing more. Pavel |
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25-11-2002, 13:49 | #14 | ||||
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Dogs with certificate
Hi Eva,
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competitions. Its doesnt matter, that comming there wolfdogs, which can only sit down and walking by leg. Its a motivation for the people to continue the training and they can see, that is more beginners similary. If we will organisate only competitions like Championchip in Roudnice, then comming very less people there (in Roudnice were 6 wolfdogs only). Compare with last ZOP/ZPU1 competition in Svetla, where participated 14 wolfdogs. Of course not all were perfect, some wolfdogs shows the absolutely basic only, but everybody get the motivation for the training and am sure, that next time will be just better results. This is not problem only in Czech republic, but generaly. I other countries is the problem more deep, because there is number of wolfdogs, which regulary trained, very very less. We all must care about working gens of our dogs. And quality grows automaticaly from big amount of working dogs. Quote:
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our wolfdogs, then champion cant be dog, which is beautifull only and can run 20 or 40 km (and basicaly this distance can running most wolfdogs). Same is it with the breed. I mean, that we would breeding only on dogs, which show the working talent (is discussion how). But working talent is not endurance only. Eva is right in this thema is with me mostly neverending discussion, but believe me, when I see the wolfdogs, they are absolutely uncontrolable, shy or agressive (shyness and agressivity is in 99% same reason), then just cry. And we can see, how on this wolfdogs some people breeding and in this way and sense "destroying" or beautifull race, which we all loving so much. Howg Pavel |
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25-11-2002, 21:45 | #15 | |||
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Dogs with certificate
Hi,
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OK. But first of all who said that the dogs with 40 km run are working dogs? )) It just has been said that the test should be enough for a dog which would like to have Show Champion title (want to be a Beauty Champion). For people wanting to have Working Champion there are other types of activities: international IPO competitions where after getting enough number of CACIT certificates the dog gets Internation Working Champion title ))) Quote:
with ZVV3 but is total parody of the breed standard in respect to exterieur. Should such dog be a show champion because of his working abilities? I don't think so because it's against the rule of being a "Beauty" champion. And if you require from Show Champion that he should be beautiful and have working title then it's like searching for a needle in a haystack. Quote:
agressive dogs should be excluded from breeding. The shows in Czech Republic are not required for receiving breeding permission (like in our country or in Germany) and should be considered as beauty contests. Greetings, Przemek |
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25-11-2002, 22:04 | #16 | |
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Dogs with certificate
Hi Eva,
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))) And the other thing. I would not be such pessimist. Look at the population of CzW and GSD. There are, I think, about 2000-3000 CzWs alive on the whole world and the number of GSD can be counted in hundreds of thousands and if you would compare the percentage of GSDs having IPO3 certificate with percentage of CzWs with IPO3 then I'm not sure which breed would have the better result. There is currently one CzW (Hasso) with IPO3... so the percentage would be 1/3000 = 0,033% .... and what it is for GSDs???? What I am driving at? The number of CzWs is way to small to talk about it's usefulness for sports. The CzWs are just waiting for people who will now how to train them and will be able to reach their maximum abilities. For example the GSD owners community associates many working judges and trainers who have years of experience in training. How many such peoples are working with CzWs? And another example why we should not talk about CzW not useful for sports - Irma z Litavske kotliny. Who would say that CzW can be the agility champion? Nobody tried so there was none and then after few years Marta started to train with Irma and two years ago she was on the 2nd place in the Polish national agility championship (so she was Polish Agility Vice-champion) and was member of Polish representation in Helsinki on World Agility Championship. Earlier the people would say: no, CzW is not good for agility... Greetings, Przemek
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25-11-2002, 22:15 | #17 |
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Dogs with certificate
Hi Pavel,
On distance I follow this interesting discussion. And I agree with your opinion. That's also why I asked before if you can see a difference in CsW type between "working" and "show" dogs (as you unfortunately can see in other breeds) It's a pity that your country is to far away for me, so I can't follow a training there. But in future I'll sure come for some competitions! For now I train basical obedience and search for all kind of other ways to work with my dog. But it is difficult to find it and certainly when you want to train with other CSw! I think it is always better to dó something with your dogs (even when it isn't a official training and even when you don't want to go to competitions) So we start also training with friends with other dogs for waterworking and search people. (and our Csw likes it!) And when there is a little bit of snow we also start with pulling sledge. On this moment there is no snow here, but our dog alreaydy got used to a harness! So I think it's also possible to work when you can't find a special training. By the way, it strikes me that a lot of trainers in Holland have the same tedious opinion about a Csw: "That isn't a workingdog. You can't train them, spare the trouble to try it." But I notice what you do with these dogs in your country. And I am "self-willed" and like to prove the opposite! Mijke |
25-11-2002, 22:45 | #19 | |||
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Dogs with certificate
Hi,
only shortly because I dont will be "neverending" ). Quote:
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want to have much champions as possible and then we make a very weak rules. Or we will have only the absolutely best of the best for champion and then we make rules according this philosophy. Eva wrote about the quality and quantity. And this is exact the case, where is important the really quality. Champion must be the best of the bests, not only nice, but the wolfdog with all best (exteriör, character, working gens etc.). Most people will always push to make a weak rules for champion, because want to reach it with many own dogs, but I think, that this is absolutely devalvation of this title (similary like is just absolutely degraded valuation "excellent" on shows). Quote:
breeding rules or not. According the FCI rules must be every show same. For working races must be the best dogs universal and not only beautiful. Pavel |
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25-11-2002, 22:52 | #20 | |
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Dogs with certificate
Hi to all
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you recognise dog with or without "working genes" :0))))). |
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