cosanginité

[Nebulosa]

Originally Posted by freewild

un bon exemple de non cosanginité pour moi

http://www.wolfdog.org/fra/litters/885.html

Coefficient de perte d'ancêtres 0.004%

Excuse moi
Je suis d'acord qui cette mariage n'est pas consanguine mais le COI dans la base de donnés de Wolfdog par le moment n'est pas correcte, touts les chiens sont 0,004%... nombre pratiquement impossible d'avoir vraiment dans la race.

[elf]

Vous trouverez des cours d'inférence statistique sur le web. Les chiens radiographiés sont un "échantillion representatif" i.e. pris aléatoirement dans la population (je dirais même que le biais est dans l'autre sens au vu de la corrélation observée sur le nombre de "?" quand un chien dysplasique existe dans une portée).

[Lorry - MLS]

Originally Posted by Nebulosa

Excuse moi
la base de donnés de Wolfdog par le moment n'est pas correcte, touts les chiens sont 0,004%... nombre pratiquement impossible d'avoir vraiment dans la race.

Je n'avais pas voulu relever, une fois de plus, les incohérences de la base de données, mais effectivement, j'avais remarqué que TOUS LES CHIENS sont à 0,004%

Idem pour les informations qui concernent le "% de sang de loup", qui ne sont plus, à jour, depuis .......un certain temps .....

[freewild]

Originally Posted by Nebulosa

Excuse moi
Je suis d'acord qui cette mariage n'est pas consanguine mais le COI dans la base de donnés de Wolfdog par le moment n'est pas correcte, touts les chiens sont 0,004%... nombre pratiquement impossible d'avoir vraiment dans la race.

oui pour le % c'est vrai mais pour le reste c'est ce que l'oj devrait trouver et non des mariages avec 19 % de consanginité comme certaine futur portée ce qui est une abération a mon avis car on doit au contraire diversifié

[martiou07]

et oui mais malheureusement on y peut rien, en effet au precedent mariage ns avions avec la mme femelle un coefficient de perte d'ancetre de 15% , et cette fois avec ce male ns passons a 19% ........
alors en effet les chiots qui en resulte peuvent etre beau , peuvent mme etre champion du pays que vs voulez, mais l'interet de l'elevage canin , est-il de produire des champion et par la mme occasion de flatter son égo ou alors preservé ou voir amelioré une race en faisant des mariages peut etre plus variées,voir plus intelligent....et ne pas se focaliser juste sur un point...... ???????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

moi personnellement j'ai ma reponse a ce sujet , mais il est tt de mme bien dommage que l'on ait des points de vue si different les uns des autres .....

[shakespeare]

Euh... Trop de consanguinité ce n'est évidemment pas bon, et l'homogénéité d'une lignée ne passe pas nécessairement par là.

alors en effet les chiots qui en resulte peuvent etre beau , peuvent mme etre champion du pays que vs voulez, mais l'interet de l'elevage canin , est-il de produire des champion et par la mme occasion de flatter son égo ou alors preservé ou voir amelioré une race en faisant des mariages peut etre plus variées,voir plus intelligent....et ne pas se focaliser juste sur un point...... ???????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Pourquoi pas le même discours alors que la dysplasie C est utilisée pour reproduire aussi? C'est largement aussi préjudiciable qu'une grande pauvreté génétique, et que dire si on cumule le tout!

[elf]

Il y a C et C, et c'est l'analyse de la lignée entière qui prévaut (i.e. CxA ne veut pas dire moins bien que AxB). Par exemple merci au mariage AxC qui a donnée une lignée aux hanches parmi les plus solides: A. Reolup. La dysplasie est une petite partie des maladies génétiques existantes... diversité, diversité, diversité, surtout chez le CLT.

[martiou07]

shakespeare, je vois pas comment te le dire d'autre dysplasie C est une dysplasie légére !!!!!!!!!! tu n'es pas ok pour faire reproduire a ce stade , je respecte ton point de vue , mais un mariage A/C , si le club slovaque et Tcheque accepte, honnetement ou est le probleme ??????

[furyos]

Laisse tomber sophie .. il y aura TOUJOURS des excuses valables pour "le pote" qui a un chien "C" mais comme c'est "un pote" et on trouvera toujours des qualites"non negligeables" a un mariage bidon.... une chienne flipee a fond /foncee comme c'est pas permis /p3 en bonitation /oreilles immenses oeil moyen ...etc ... pour ce ki est de visible et de surcroi dysplasie"C" pour ce ki n'est pas visible .. est a coup sur tres interressante pour le cheptel francais .. c'est EVIDENT;;;;;!!!! vive la diversite de la race .. HEURESEMENT que le male a de veritables qualites .. MAIS quel gachi!!!!! amicalement loup frank....

[martiou07]

Frank, l'un de tes chiens est issus d'un mariage B/C , donc vu tes experience d'apprenti sorcier (consanguinité a tt va , 19% c'est enorme!!!!!) , j'enguis de voir le resultat par la suite ......

pour Deymah, M3, a titre d'info, vu que tu n'es pas au courant, est juste noté a titre d'information !!!!! et non comme un defaut !!! Flipée , Od irritable et mefiante !!!! par contre sur les yeux ou les oreilles rien de noté , bizarre Monika Soukupova serait donc passé a coté de si gros defaut , mon pauvre Frank tu en es ridicule

lors de la NE, elle a obtenu l'excellent, donc une fois de plus, toi qui est arrivé ds le monde du CLT ya tt juste 3ans , tu remmets donc en question le jugement d'une juge telle que Monika Soukupova

RIDICULE !!!!!!!

pour finir, quel gachis !!!! en effet quel gachis d'avoir 2 etalons pouvant etre interessant pour le cheptel francais et les faire reproduire a tt va comme c'est le cas, tellement qu'il en est maintenant desormais ininteressant de travailler sur ces lignées ....... , oui quel gachis ......

[furyos]

HOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!te sentirais tu vise martial ? ou' vois -tu un seul nom de mentionnes dans mon dernier message??????????(a contrario de toi et tes amis qui pointe du doigt mes chiens) ha tu parle de ta chienne???,? .... no comment sur cette derniere ..... comme dit elf il y a C ET C ..... mais il y a beau et pas beau .... mais ne suis pas juge donc ne jugerai pas sur un forum public ce que je pense de tes chiens .. desole je ne rentrerai pas dans ton jeu .... excuse moi si tu l' a pris pour toi .. elle est super mignone ..... c est pas ca que tout le monde te dit habituellement et que tu as envie d'entendre .. donc oui elle est superbe ta "louloute d'amour"... a bientot .. amicalement loup frank(surtout des photos/des photos des bb .. j adore !!!!.. et trepigne d'avance.. c'est comme ca j aime trop ces ptites boules de poils ... HUMMMMMM vivement !!!!)

[martiou07]

ahahahah , c'est pas mal Frank , a d'autre ..............

[furyos]

haaaaaaaaa martial mon ami de toujours .... ben suis content!!!! .. tu rigole .. tu vois que l on arrive a s'entendre .. si je t'ai detendu ce matin j en suis fort aise ....a tres bientot pour l apero... amicalement loup frank

punaise, vous êtes en forme ce matin

J'en rajoute une couche : la base de données va-t'elle être remise à niveau avec les bons calculs ?

[elf]

даже если тебе объяснят на десяти разных языках, ты ничего не поймёшь, твой случай безнадежен.

[martiou07]

bonjour, Corinne, si tu veux savoir pour les chiots issus du mariage Calel/Gabina, pour ma part je trouve ca excellent , tu es a 1.41....%

pour ce qui es du mariage de Deymah(dont on parle au dessus, en effet Deymah est a ma connaissance la seule M3 en France ) et Furcas , ns sommes a 5.02....%

Merci Martial, je n'avais pas le taux exact et n'avait pas fait l'exercice de le calculer
Je me doutais bien qu'il était bas car avant d'accepter de prendre Calel, j'avais bien regardé leur lignée respective
Bon les gars, si vous venez tous les 2 au Paris Dog Show de Vincennes, c'est JP & moi qui offrons l'apéro

[furyos]

slt corrinne ... oui y serai bien sur .. merci pour l invit .. a tres vite .. amicalemnt loup frank

avec plaisir mister

[Margo]

Very interesting topic but we have to clear few things...

Some things are not like they look like... many things are hidden and many are not known.... The "reality" in France is sometimes different from the reality in Czech Republic or Slovakia... What your breeders know is sometimes just propaganda told by some breeders which do not have nothing to do with the real world...

I tell you some examples to make it more clear...

* We have in Poland one kennel where the owners say they are very good friends of Mr. Hartl and their dogs are choosen by him - they say they are the best kennel here and the most known Polish kennel in Czech Republic... So in Poland many people believe it and call them "real experts". But what is the reality? Hartl have no idea which dogs this breeder have, which litters he bred and almost nobody in CZ know this breeders. Few people who know them say their dogs are horrible looking with very bad character... So in Poland they play experts but in Czech Republic they mean nothing...

* In one summer camp we had one person from abroad. One day we were speaking about kennels and the person said "For me the most interesting kennel is the kennel XXX. Really perfect breeder." All people from origin country made HUGE eyes shocked. Why? Because this breeder is known there for keeping dogs in HORRIBLE conditions, not carrying for the dogs. It was so bad that it was already twice forbitten the breeder to breed until a official veterynary check of the kennel will be done... It is slaughterhouse not a kennel... But from outside the kennel look nice - if you do not know the REALITY...

* It also function in the other way.... In your country (but also for example in Italy) there are breeders which are called "responsible and good" and in Czech Republic or Slovakia they are on the black list known as puppy dealers. You will be surprised when you would see the kennel names... For example one of the most known and "best" italian breeders started as typical puppy dealer who was buying whole litters in Czech Republic and selling them at higher price in Italy... He started to breed ONLY because Czech breeders started to rise the prices so for him it was cheaper to breed CzW by himself than to go every 1-2 weeks to CZ and have problems on the austrian border and to pay penalties.

* There is also funny to see how different information about some dogs function in the CzW world... Some examples:

- There was a dog in CZ. Not good looking and with hip dysplasia. The owner didn't wanted the dog because he was not able to breed with him in Czech Republic so the dog was sold to Italy. Now you see many new owners from Italy which write "I have a dog which is offspring of the perfect import from Czech Republic"...

- There is one breeder in Germany which is telling all people he have a PERFECT female which is a real wolf looking CzW. On the internet you can find very beautiful photos of this female and many people were crazy about her puppies. They paid really a lot to get them... But what was surprising for us it was the fact that the breeder NEVER took the female to important dog shows and never showed her in origin countries. Why? Thanks to information given by some German owners the mystery has been solved: the female is different that on the photos, has problematic character, huge problems with the hair and wrong bite. She will never get a good note by an expert judge. So in order not to "destroy" the legend the female is always hidden and only fairy tails about her beauty has been told to pleople (and many people believe in it)... And such stories you can hear not only in Germany of course...

- The same works in other direction - we spoke with slovakian breeders and found out two great dogs (we found more but the 2 will be good example ) which it would be great to use for breeding also here. One dog was from Italy, second from France... The italian dog has splendid photos on internet - it looks very wolfish. Also the body look nice - nice long legs, short tail, good chest. Do you know what happend when this dog appeared on one of the dogs shows? We were SHOCKED. Sure it has nice head but.... but not in 50% as nice as on the photos. And his body is HORRIBLE - very long (extremly bad indexes), the chest too deep and much too wide, legs wrong angulated. Simply said very poor quality dog with pretty nice head...
The same was the story with the French dog - many people write the dog is beautiful. He get also many titles and people say a lot good things about him - expecially the owner On the photos the dog was very good looking... it was REALLY interesting dog till we met him... Sorry, but the first thought was "How it is possible that such poor quality dog can win ANYTHING" - the head was not a little bit wolfish, he has body of grey German Shepherd and also very shy, unstable character...


Why I write about it? Because many HUGE mistakes in the breeding base on the missing or wrong infromation. And the mistakes are much more visible if you make strong inbreeds on such dogs...
There is one breeder in Italy which has very bad looking dogs which very bad HD results... It is bad breeder? No. But he makes strong inbreed on a "perfect looking dog which is an example of the best CzW for him" which was living in Czech Republic. The problem is the breeder base only on this what he THINKS and the reality was totally DIFFERENT - he has no idea that THIS dog was looking HORRIBLE according to the standard and also giving very bad HD-results. So even if the breeder want to make something good it is no possible because the information he has is DIFFERENT from the reality.


I see the same in some posts here MISSING INFORMATION about the reality and FAIRY TALES of FACTS told about some dogs or breeders...

So here we go:

- first what is a LINE BREEDING? When a breeder has one or two generation it is NOT a LINE. Even after 10 generations is must not be a line breeding...

Because linebreeding (building a line) is a version of inbreeding when you mate dogs with common ancestors. When you mate cousins, aunt to nephew, half brother to half sister. It is the idea of making a line...
What is the reality?
First: NOBODY in CZ od SK will allow you to mate half brother to half sister. Because it is too risky. They also do not allow to have common ancerstors in the 2-3 generations. Only if few cases you can see it and ONLY if the dog where you make an inbreed was ABSOLUTLY heathy and TYPICAL. You will never get permission to make such strong inbreed on dog which was HD-C or HD-B but with ancestors with worser results than HD-A...

Second: nobody in CZ or SK speaks about "line of the kennel XXX" like you do. Because ONE kennel is not able to make a line. Even some COUNTRIES are too small to make one "their" own line which will be heathy and able to "survive" (will be able to exist for a longer time)...
Sure there were three kennels which officialy tried to make "their own lines" - but the end was like everybody suspected.... FAILURE. If you do not have enough dogs (50? 100?) you will always get problems when you make too cloose inbreed. It was the same here - all three kennels which tried to make their own 'lines' have HUGE problems with the health of their dogs - everybody knows it, nobody speaks about it openly...
All kennels have problems with very weak bones and shy characters.
First kennel finished as a kennel of a shy dogs with extremly weak bones, second has huge problems with the HD (the dog have problem to walk not with 5 years but with 8 months already) and the last is the best examples of ALL possible problems conected with the population bottleneck. In all three cases the breeders had to change the politics - they were not more able to breed with their own dogs - they were FORCED to include new blood and make the outcrosses.
WHY? Pure genetics - in all three cases the breeders didn't had enough knowledge to make their lines. They just crossed "my nice dog with my other nice dog".. Not paying attention to the heath and character and GENETICS. Only LOOK was important... So it do not took a long and in their kennels appear TYPICAL problems for a very small and high inbreed populations:
- reduced fertility both in litter size and sperm viability (small litters - many "empty" bitches)
- lower birth rate
- increased genetic disorders (problems with health)
- fluctuating facial asymmetry (many example you can see by the Italian "most famous" kennel where the head of a dog is not symmetrical)
- higher infant mortality
- slower growth rate
- smaller adult size
- loss of immune system function

Third: I do not understand the way of dividing dogs basing on kennel names. It really make no sence. In every kennel you have good dogs and bad looking CzW. Good and poor quality. Good and bad matings. You call some kennel names as being the best and nices and I know breeders which buyed dogs from this kennels and decided not to breed with them because of the very poor quality. In EVERY kennel you have DIFFERENT dogs.
If you really want to see what is behind it look in the pedigree and you will see the lines...

Best example is the Crying Wolf kennel which you already know. If someone writes "I like the wolfish look of Crying Wolf dogs because they are so wolfish" it means only the person who is saing it has NO IDEA about the Crying Wolf, pedigrees and look of the CzW... Why? Because it is only repeating words which are told by breeders as the advertising made for their own dogs... And it has nothing to do with GENETICS and reality...
It is a attack on Crying Wolf? No. It is just best example of typical CzW kennel with different dogs, different mating and different results. If you look behind what you will see? Even in France you can see Crying Wolf dogs which are VERY good looking and very wolfish and dogs which are average - why there are so huge differences between dogs from this kennels?

It is like the story of the italian kennel "Passo del Lupo" - many people said "it is the best kennel with the best looking dogs" and they buyied a puppy. And? SUPRISE - the puppy was looking HORRIBLE. Why? It Passo del Lupo not good? NO. It is normal kennel - they have different females, different mating and different results. There is one (2, 3) line of Passo del Lupo dogs looking very good and some other which can be described as average or even not typical. And one which is not even purebreed - not even CzW. Whe question is if you will base on the lame words "Passo del Lupo is the best kennel" or if you will look on the reality: pedigree and genetics and check which connections are so good and why....

I do not want to say "Crying wolf is not a good kennel and the dogs are not nice". No way. I just want to tell you "do no repeat propaganda and look in the pedigrees".... The wolfish look, the nice heads and light eyes which you love so much is PURE Orlik z Rosikova. The Crying wolf kennel base on two dogs - the great female Moňa z Krotkovského dvora and very nice dog Fallko Kollárov dvor. Both represent TYPICAL look of many Slovakian dogs (the difference is you know MANY Crying wolf dogs and almost NONE Slovakian dogs ).
For many years Kollárov dvor was the most famous slovakian kennel - almost all their litters based on the male Cézar z Krotkovského dvora. Mona and Cezar (both "z Krotkovského dvora") have GREAT wolfish heads. No wonder - the breeder 'z Krotkovského dvora' was paing many attention to the wolfish look of his dogs. Still in this lines you can see the typical wolfish brown colour (it is very important because there is more and more problematic to find CzW with the right darker colour - to many breeders try to breed TOO light dogs - in some cases they start even to breed some kind of white wolfdogs) any many characteristisc which are VERY wolfish. The main stud dog by Krotkovsky was.... YES, exactly: Orlik z Rosikova.
Fallko Kollárov dvor had so nice wolfish head because it was pure inbreed on Orlik. Also Mona owe her look to Orlik. And all the wolfish looking Crying Wolfs are bigger and smaller inbreeds on Orlik.

No - you don't fall in love in the look of Crying Wolf. Many of you are only crazy about the Slovakian dog Orlik z Rosikova... It is what you like so much. You do not bring the blood of Crying Wolf to France - what are just importing a lot of slovakian blood of Orlik and introducing it to the breeding in France at the moment...
It is the REALITY... if you don't believe ... check the pedigrees...