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Upbringing & character How to care for a puppy, how to socialize it, the most common problems with CzW, how to solve them....

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Old 07-09-2004, 22:00   #1
Mirkawolf
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Default Wolfdogs in West Europe-shy, bad socialised & unpredicta

Hello everybody,

i can´t help but feel that i could have a word or two to say to this newly opened theme. First to those who do not know me, something about me. I ´ve been living with wolfdogs for more than severn years, been training with them and later I started to breed them, too. I´ve been to several dog shows with my Cira, we passed two obedience tests (ZOP, ZZO) and we trained regularly at least twice a week at different dog training clubs. I´ve been going to bonitations and youth presentation, also all my puppy owners (though from different countries) came to Czech republic to present the dogs at youth presentation. So possibly i can say I know a little bit about the breed and how the dogs look like in Czech republic.

I moved to Belgium in April 2004 and I was wondering about wolfdogs here. But what I saw didn´t please me much. 90% of CSW´s i´ve met here were shy dogs, which their owners kept constantly on leash or better closed in a cage. Most of them also were not looking so great according to the standard, the biggest problems of wolfdogs in Belgium are big ears, dark eyes, long tails and i could continue. Also the dogs here are very slender with almost no muscles (how they could have them, walking only on the leash or being closed in a cage). Hard to recognise males from females, there is completely no difference in the shape of head or look of the dog.. Also, most of the dogs are quite small.

The worst problem of CSW´s here in Belgium though is the character. Wolfdogs here are shy, badly socialised and unpredictable. They usually have no training and thus their owners are scared to let them off leash. I think there is a lot work at the Belgian breeders (or Dutch) to improve these problems. But again, i´ve heard horrible rumours among owners here, about how to deal with CSW´s.

I´ve heard such crap like for example:

- CSW´s cannot be trained, it is impossible..
- CSW´s are shy, it is normal, it´s the wolf in them..
- if CSW is not shy, it cannot be CSW, because all CSW´s are shy..

The most crazy thing is, that most wolfdog owners here do not know about each other, they get no advices from their breeders and usually no help, too. This way, not having suitable informations, they do not know what to do with their wolfdog, how to train it and socialise it, and another shy and problematic wolfdog is here.

I can say that i strongly believe, that most of Belgian wolfdogs would not pass the Czech or Slovak bonitation. Maybe they would not fail in the size or look, but i say they would not pass the character test. (Also i cannot imagine how the wolfdogs would be measured, when i tried to take pictures at the meeting in Schoten, most of the wolfdogs were not able to stay at one place for few seconds).

I guess that most of breeders or owners here in Belgium or Holland won´t like me for this, but truth is always not pleasant to hear. However, it doesn´t have to be so bad with the wolfdogs here in Belgium forewer. There is many things to do about it, and I can suggest some.

First, the breeders must keep in touch with their puppy owners, that´s a basic. They must be able to advice, if their puppy owner has a problem. Also the breeders should be able to recommend the new puppy owner a good training place or to explain him at least a little bit about the socialisation of the dog. It is a must. Who is serious breeder, does this.

The wolfdog owners here in Belgium should also unite and share their experiences, advices and thoughts. It is the best way to find solutions for problems and help each other. We have wolfdogs because we love them and what we want are happy and educated wolfdogs, with which we can go on walk or trip without being scared all the time, what the dog can do.

Meeting in Schoten was a start, as Patrick said. I agree, though i expected more activities at the meeting, such as collective obedience training, agility or some little competition. Instead of that, after a walk (on the leash only) the only program was to sit and talk .. But hey, it is a start and I am sure next time it will be better. But one meeting per year is nothing, especially when the wolfdogs need to do something!

I am opened to any discussions on this theme. If anyone in Belgium wants to meet me and discuss about wolfdog socialising, training, behaviour or other things, I am always ready to help. I am used from Czech republic that we people with wolfdogs were meeting often for walks, trips, competitons and other fun things and i miss it here. So I will be only pleased to see some wolfdogs or talk about them.

Mirka
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Old 07-09-2004, 23:18   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirkawolf1
I am used from Czech republic that we people with wolfdogs were meeting often for walks, trips, competitons and other fun things and i miss it here.
And I miss the same in Holland! !!

But in Holland and Belgium are not so much CsW's as in Czech rep. and the owners do not often live in the same area.
And also most dogowners in these country's are not used to weekly activity's together (exept once a week a training group, and not every dog owner is even doing this)

But because I want to do activity's with my CsW's I did find other solutions:
I walk with my CsW's with husky owners, obedience training with several other breeds, swimming training with some newfoundlander owners, tracking with a leonberger group, biking with some labrador owners ))

OK, these are not wolfdogs , but we have a lot of fun together

When you can't find wolfdog owners Mirka, I realy hope you can find some other dogowners who like to do things together with you and Cira!

See you soon (and then we kan at least walk with a few CsW's!

greetings,
Mijke
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Old 08-09-2004, 13:57   #3
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Hi Mijke, my friend

Quote:
Originally Posted by mijke
But in Holland and Belgium are not so much CsW's as in Czech rep. and the owners do not often live in the same area.
And also most dogowners in these country's are not used to weekly activity's together (exept once a week a training group, and not every dog owner is even doing this)
You are right, but believe me, its not so pink in Czech republic as well. Some people can imagine from our articles, that we meet every month 20 people with CsW. But its not reality. Its only some big meetings, but regulary goes togetjher peopel in regions. E.g. Prague is quite big, but in our training club we meet 2-3 CsW weekly only. And same is it in other corners of Czech as well. Mirka have right, that CsW owners may goes together many times in year. Not all on one place, but regulary. And you are absolutely right, that the target is not training with CsW only. The contact with other races is very important and very motivating. Some times am proud on my dogs, because I see the owner with GSD, who knows less then me .
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Old 11-09-2004, 23:00   #4
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Hello from Belgium,
I introduce myself, specially for Mirka.
Since my 12th, so 26 years, I have dogs. I had Irish setters,bouvier des flandres, german sheppard and since 2,5 year a csw Branca.
I had many litters, and last year the first with csw, but without succes. the reason that officially on this site, we are the second breeder in Belgium.
As a good belgian I must reply at your article, Mira.
Here in Belgium we have very good dog trainers,we have many worldchampions like mondioring,veldwerk,agility,obedience......
So,don't laugh with us.
There is only one breeder in Belgium and he can't defend himself because he hasnot internet. He is a very very good man. He has good contacts with Hartl.
You wrote that the breedermust follow up the puppies. So, all the original csw in Belgium and Netherland come from the origine countries. Why did'nt those breeders do it? Who's fault is it than?
In our countries a csw is attractive because he looks to a wolf. When tomorrow a csw must be obedient like a german sheppard, than by a german sheppard!
You wrote that a csw must can stay still to take a picture. Well, that is not the most important thing for a csw.

2 or 3 times a week I course on bycicle 10 km with Branca. Do you?
Every day in the morning my csw walk with me and my daughter to school . (perfect socialising) Do you?
Our csw are playing with my both daughters (1.5 and 4.5). Do you?
Our csw stays offently in the restaurant of my wife. Do you?
I take her with to bar and public market. Do you?
I went to 3 different dog schools to train on different locations.
In the videoclip Branca was hold on for 10 minutes by a stranger before she had to run 3 à 400 meters to return to me. She did it.
Branca cames always back in the woods!
I had 2 weeks before the video making to train Branca with a camera. I had an old very big one. So she was not shy from the camera. She only didn't had confidance with camera 3 meters high and 4 man behind.
Take 100 german sheppards in the same situaton! You will see that many of those dogs don't like it.


Since 7 years I 'm a professionel dog-guardian. Every week for 30 hours I work with my 2 "old" german sheppard (long hair) and 2 times a week I take my csw Branca with me. She is sitting near to me, looking at the entree of the shop, all the cars passing. People pass her within ONE meter. She doesn't reacte. She is not shy! Branca see and hair every moving. She already defend me twice! 2 times a person wanted to attack me. The cars, children, people .... make a lot of noises, she don't move! Don't tell belgian csw are shy.
Our people don't know yet exactly what you can do with a csw. Agility,coursing,tracking...... That is the problem.
The only way is to encourage them and explain it. The only thing YOU do is destructive for the "90%". That's wrong. You must be constructive with thoseother 10% and slowly the rest will follow.
I think you like giving critics, like the boy of 13 years old with his saarloos.
You forget the most important thing of a dog: a dog is our friend, whatever the defaults may be!
At the meeting in Schotenin June you came to congratulate me. Now after 3 months you wrote that we had to do more! I don't like that kind of people. Say it in my face please!
You also wrote that there is nothing to do for csw. But when I asked you in June to come more training in the club, you told me that the distance was to far. Is 30 km to far for a csw-lover?

This is the second time you attacked me. Don't do it again. Instead of critisise you'd better do something possitive.

You wrote that the belgian csw have to big ears. In all those pedigrees there is an ariel lobos,exa vopa,zepper... All dogs from YOUR country.

You wrote that belgian csw are to thin and have no muscles. Well,... I prefere that than a fat one with hollow back.

Normally this year Branca will have Edy krivotklasky atos as male for a litter. It's a half brother of your dog!
In july a puppie csw came to us: Heron. His Dutch parents have a P1 an P5. You can not be critical on this, I suppose.

To end possitive:

I've heard that Mijke wants to organise a meeting in Belgium also! Very good!
In june 2005 the second meeting will be organised in Schoten. Normally next week you'll find more details on this site. And Mirka, ther will be more organised!

Greatings
Patrick
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Old 12-09-2004, 21:18   #5
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Dear Patrick,

i do not know that i´d attack you in any way. Please calm down. And especially please note, i was not speaking here about Branca the Movie star, but about all wolfdogs in Belgium or Holland, that i´ve seen since i am here. Now a bit to what you said.


Quote:
Originally Posted by of Mercedes Dream
I had many litters, and last year the first with csw, but without succes. the reason that officially on this site, we are the second breeder in Belgium.
You might think you are second breeder in Belgium, but you forgot about me. I am a breeder too, with officially recognised and registered breeding station. And unlike you, i had pedigree puppies. And i will have them again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by of Mercedes Dream
There is only one breeder in Belgium and he can't defend himself because he hasnot internet. He is a very very good man. He has good contacts with Hartl.
I know Mr. Hartl personally. Does that make a good breeder from me? I guess not. Good breeder is not a person, that is able to produce 50 puppies per year, but a person who cares about his puppies, his owners and last but not least, about the future and quality of the breed.


Quote:
Originally Posted by of Mercedes Dream
You wrote that the breedermust follow up the puppies. So, all the original csw in Belgium and Netherland come from the origine countries. Why did'nt those breeders do it? Who's fault is it than?
What exactly those breeders didn´t do? They made a mistake that they sold puppies to Belgium? If you mean that they sold the puppies and didn´t pay any attention after.. well that happens and you already know what i think about such people. I sold my puppies to five different countries and i keep in contact with all of them. I find it normal and important for both sides.

Quote:
Originally Posted by of Mercedes Dream
In our countries a csw is attractive because he looks to a wolf. When tomorrow a csw must be obedient like a german sheppard, than by a german sheppard!
Please do not forget CSW is working dog, as such one is registered at FCI and so it should be quite normal, that working dog should be obedient. Even if it was not working dog, i say that dog of this size simply has to be trained, if you want to have decent life with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by of Mercedes Dream
You wrote that a csw must can stay still to take a picture. Well, that is not the most important thing for a csw.
I didn´t say it must. Just i wonder, if it doesn´t stay still for a picture, how it works at a dog show, where the dog is supposed to stay still while the judge is watching him? And not only the dog must be still, but also standing in the show position?

Quote:
Originally Posted by of Mercedes Dream
2 or 3 times a week I course on bycicle 10 km with Branca. Do you?
I do not here in Brussels, don´t have really the conditions. Back in Czech republic was going almost daily on bicycle with Cira for about 10-11 km. Average speed 13km/hour, if it is important to you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by of Mercedes Dream
Every day in the morning my csw walk with me and my daughter to school . (perfect socialising) Do you??
Sorry, don´t have daughter yet. Will work on it, I promise. I am walking my dog several times per day inside Brussels, is that o.k?

Quote:
Originally Posted by of Mercedes Dream
Our csw are playing with my both daughters (1.5 and 4.5). Do you???
Sorry again, don´t have my own kids yet. I let all kids that want to play with Cira anytime they ask. Also spent some time with Cira babysitting a 7 months old baby of my friend, it was really nice. Cira was guarding the charriot with the baby..

Quote:
Originally Posted by of Mercedes Dream
Our csw stays offently in the restaurant of my wife. Do you? ???
This is quite normal for me, i´d never think about mentioning it as something special. Of course my dog can go with me to any restaurant, post office, bus, tram, train, public meeting, market, bar or anywhere else. She is normal dog.

Quote:
Originally Posted by of Mercedes Dream
In the videoclip Branca was hold on for 10 minutes by a stranger before she had to run 3 à 400 meters to return to me. She did it.
Again I do not see anything special on it. I can ask anyone to hold my dog for whatever long time and she lays down and waits for me. Even better, i just tell my dog to lay down and stay, and I can go away (even so that she cannot see me) and come back after ten minutes and i will find her at the exact spot i left her. I find it normal.


Quote:
Originally Posted by of Mercedes Dream
I had 2 weeks before the video making to train Branca with a camera. I had an old very big one. So she was not shy from the camera. She only didn't had confidance with camera 3 meters high and 4 man behind.
Take 100 german sheppards in the same situaton! You will see that many of those dogs don't like it.
I am not really sure what is so scary on the camera. But o.k., if your dog can be scared of it, sure go ahead and train.
Personally I think, if German shepherd can´t stand a situation of being filmed on camera, then it is not worth to be called German shepherd.

Quote:
Originally Posted by of Mercedes Dream
Since 7 years I 'm a professionel dog-guardian. Every week for 30 hours I work with my 2 "old" german sheppard (long hair) and 2 times a week I take my csw Branca with me. She is sitting near to me, looking at the entree of the shop, all the cars passing. People pass her within ONE meter. She doesn't reacte. She is not shy! Branca see and hair every moving. She already defend me twice! 2 times a person wanted to attack me. The cars, children, people .... make a lot of noises, she don't move! Don't tell belgian csw are shy.
If i shorten it a lot, i remind you I was not speaking about Branca. And Branca is just one dog, not the whole population of wolfdogs in Belgium. And if your dog and my dog are not shy, that doesn´t mean that belgian csw´s are not shy. That only means two wolfdogs here are normal!

Quote:
Originally Posted by of Mercedes Dream
Our people don't know yet exactly what you can do with a csw. Agility,coursing,tracking...... That is the problem.
The only way is to encourage them and explain it. The only thing YOU do is destructive for the "90%". That's wrong. You must be constructive with thoseother 10% and slowly the rest will follow.
I think you like giving critics, like the boy of 13 years old with his saarloos.
You forget the most important thing of a dog: a dog is our friend, whatever the defaults may be!
Please go back to my last post and read it again. I said my critics but also gave plenty of suggestions. Also I offered that any time I am ready to advice, suggest, help and discuss. Which is what a good breeder should do. The only guy criticising is you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by of Mercedes Dream
At the meeting in Schotenin June you came to congratulate me. Now after 3 months you wrote that we had to do more! I don't like that kind of people. Say it in my face please!
Yes, i thanked you for a nice meeting. Nothing less, nothing more. I say it was a good start and let´s make it better next year.

Quote:
Originally Posted by of Mercedes Dream
You also wrote that there is nothing to do for csw. But when I asked you in June to come more training in the club, you told me that the distance was to far. Is 30 km to far for a csw-lover?
Actually i´d really love to go there more often. But i do not have my own income, so honestly i can´t afford it. Money is the problem. If you want to sponsor me, i will be at the training place three times a week.


Quote:
Originally Posted by of Mercedes Dream
This is the second time you attacked me. Don't do it again. Instead of critisise you'd better do something possitive.
Never attacked you. If you do not like critics, do not read my posts. Or maybe the truth is not so nice to hear, that happens.


Quote:
Originally Posted by of Mercedes Dream
You wrote that the belgian csw have to big ears. In all those pedigrees there is an ariel lobos,exa vopa,zepper... All dogs from YOUR country.
Sure. They have big ears. Btw. my own dog has too big ears too. Yet she got twice BOB here. She has other problems too, she has too long tail, and too dark eyes. And twice BOB! The judges here do not know the standard? It´s so funny. Anyways. I will tell you a secret. What we do in Czech republic is, that if i know my female has big ears, i cross her with male with normal ears, so that there is chance 50% of puppies could have normal short ears It works! But crossing the same types of dogs round and round .. will produce sooner or later rabbit ear wolfdogs

Quote:
Originally Posted by of Mercedes Dream
You wrote that belgian csw are to thin and have no muscles. Well,... I prefere that than a fat one with hollow back.
And where did you see a fat wolfdog? Could not be here.. Please read the French forum also, where Phillip Bescond had to wake up from his dream about perfect Anubis.. too slim dog, too shy, too small.. CSW should resemble a wolf. Normal wolf runs every day many kms to find food, and thus must be muscular.. not fat, not slim. But well shaped. With a wolfdog closed most of life in a kennel or bench, you never can achieve that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by of Mercedes Dream
Normally this year Branca will have Edy krivotklasky atos as male for a litter. It's a half brother of your dog!
And what does that mean, that he is half brother of my dog? My Cira is really not a star of the breed But if you think so, then I am honored!

Quote:
Originally Posted by of Mercedes Dream
I've heard that Mijke wants to organise a meeting in Belgium also! Very good!
Yes, i know. We are working on it together. But sheesh, it was supposed to be surprise!

Quote:
Originally Posted by of Mercedes Dream
In june 2005 the second meeting will be organised in Schoten. Normally next week you'll find more details on this site. And Mirka, ther will be more organised!
Cool! I will be there. Maybe even with two wolfdogs Looking forward for some training and fun.

Happy howls,

Mirka
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Old 12-09-2004, 21:49   #6
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Hello again from Belgium,
Mirka,
Please put your name on the Belgian breeders list.
I'm a good friend of the other breeder. That's why I had to reacte.
He and me have some different opinions about the csw, but anyway the csw is our friend.
If you think a csw most be obedient like a german sheppard, than think it.

I'll will explain you more when we will meet eachother on a show....

Greatings
Patrick
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Old 13-09-2004, 07:27   #7
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Hi,
I read the loooong comment from Patric and I must put some my opinions and comments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by of Mercedes Dream
Here in Belgium we have very good dog trainers,we have many worldchampions like mondioring,veldwerk,agility,obedience......
Its great to hear it. We are on CsW Forum so my question is, why not any CsW in Belgium have success in sport ? Why I never see any CsW from Belgium on some events like competitions or exams ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by of Mercedes Dream
He is a very very good man. He has good contacts with Hartl.
Please, dont write it. Mr. Hartl is not a miracle. Many CsW owners and breeders using his name like a magic word. I know Mr. Hartl as well and I can guarantee you, that he have good contacts with anybody, who knows him. And whats it may says ????

Quote:
Originally Posted by of Mercedes Dream
You wrote that the breedermust follow up the puppies. So, all the original csw in Belgium and Netherland come from the origine countries. Why did'nt those breeders do it? Who's fault is it than?
You are absolutely right. Guilty are both. Mostly is biggest problem the language barrier. I cant understand breeder, which sold puppy to somebody, with cant communicate with him. And opposite, I cant understand the owner as well. Sure, around the world are bad breeders and "producers of puppies" as well. And countries of origin are not a exception.
Breeder and owner must be in regulary contact. Its a basic principle of breeding (in the right sense of this word).

Quote:
Originally Posted by of Mercedes Dream
In our countries a csw is attractive because he looks to a wolf. When tomorrow a csw must be obedient like a german sheppard, than by a german sheppard!
If in your country is this opinion (I hope not generally), then please stop the breeding and sell all CsW out of Belgium. CsW is working dog and not dog for shows only. This access to our dogs (and to all dogs generally) makes the problems only. CsW is not dog with character like Shi-tzu or Shar-pei (dogs created and selected to be a companion dog only). CsW was created and selected for work and for to be obedient and trained. If dog dont get socialisation and minimally training, then can be dangerous for his enviroment. I know many such dogs, which attacking everything around from shyness. Its a fact. CSW IS NOT COMPANION OR TOY DOG !!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by of Mercedes Dream
You wrote that a csw must can stay still to take a picture. Well, that is not the most important thing for a csw.
Excuse me, did you ever been in dog show ? Not only working dog, but mainly the show dog must can it .

Quote:
Originally Posted by of Mercedes Dream
In the videoclip Branca was hold on for 10 minutes by a stranger before she had to run 3 à 400 meters to return to me. She did it.
Branca cames always back in the woods!
Its not a speciality. Comming back on command (recall) may EVERY dog (its a basic not only training but normally living with dog). But you are right, by CsW owners, which have CsW like a shy wolf only its a miracle and top training .

Quote:
Originally Posted by of Mercedes Dream
Our people don't know yet exactly what you can do with a csw. Agility,coursing,tracking...... That is the problem.
Here you touch the core of the problem. Many people have the CsW only because the wolf exterior (like you wrote) and dont know, what doing with the dog. But its just from the beginn a totally wrong access to dog ! If I want to have any dog race, then I collect before much a possible informations about this race. How looks like, healty, living conditions and whats may doing with the dog. But many people today buying dogs so, that choice the race on show or from dog catalogue and nothing more. Then is guilty the breedr as well, that to such people sold the puppy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by of Mercedes Dream
The only way is to encourage them and explain it. The only thing YOU do is destructive for the "90%". That's wrong. You must be constructive with thoseother 10% and slowly the rest will follow.
I think you like giving critics,...
Here I must defend Mirka. I know Mirka very well some years. Mirka is not top trainer and her Cira is not 100% ready to go to World championchip of obedience or IPO . But she have a obedient CsW, which can anytime shows tracing, obedience and defence as well. Mirka done and doing much for our dogs. And I must guarantee you, that she dont critise only. But I can understand her and her schock, when compare the situation here in Czech and in Belgium. I have a same tendency, when I travel abroad as well. Mirka went 1-2 times in the week on training field. She seen there not only perfect trained CsW, but quite good. Shyness was very seldom to see. All CsW, which she seen, can sit, down, stay, heeling and recall not 100% but relativelly good. And not adult dogs only. We starting to training with CsW very early. So that she seen obedient just puppies about 7 moths old. Now come to country, where mostly CsW are shy, dont know basically commands of obedience, and about tracing or defence is no sense to speaking. It must be schock for her and I understand, that she want to change it. And first step is shows the reality. So that she do it. And that many people dont want to hear, that their dogs are shy and dont knows anything, its no miracle.
Patrik, dont fight with Mirka and try to slowly changing the situation of CsW in Belgium together with her.

Quote:
Originally Posted by of Mercedes Dream
I've heard that Mijke wants to organise a meeting in Belgium also! Very good!
See, its a chance to get together. Mijke is one of CsW owners in Holland, who doing something with her dogs. Dont fighting - go together and change the situation.

I cross the fingers for you
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Old 13-09-2004, 13:38   #8
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Hello from Belgium,

I forgot to tell something.
With my german sheppard I did 8 years competion obedience of St Hubertus in the highest class. So I know what obedience is.

So, Pavel and Mirka, I'll remember all your critics and be shure that I'm working on it. Remember, I organised the first meeting in Belgium. Also the second one in June with much more things to do.

The end
Patrick
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