Endurance run 40 & 70km in Trencin (SK) - 07.10.2006

[z Peronówki]

Endurance runs in Sloviakia are nothing special - they took place every year... But this time there was the first run with the possibility to get CACT's - certificates for Slovakian Working Champion...

11 Wolfdogs applied for it. The weather was not so great for such exams - the morning was nice but after we made 20 km nice sun started to shine... the temperature raised even to 24°C. But most of the Wolfdogs showed great condition and finished the run with excellent results...

And here are the final results:

SVP1 (40km)

1) Amber Wolf z Peronowki
2:40 - "excellent" - CACT

2) Camio z Peronowki
2:52 - "excellent" - res.CACT

3) Cila Maly bysterec
2:58 - "excellent"

4) Big Wakan Wolf Arimminum
3:04 - "excellent"

5) Kora Kysucka hvezda
3:06 - "excellent"

6) Alex z Cakajovskeho dvora
3:07 - "excellent"

7) Andromeda Arimminum
3:26 - "very good"

Dasa Chlumecke podzamci
3:45 - "good"

*** Amon Silesian Wolf
didn't finished

*** Enor Maly bysterec
didn't finished


SVP2 (70km)

1) Botis z Peronowki
5:26 - "excellent" - CACT

[BWolf]

Congratulations to all dogs!

I've got a couple of questions about the results:
a) The final ranking depends just on the final time? I mean, it's just like a race or there's a judgment on "how" they run the 40/70 kms? Is there a maximum time to finish the race and get "excellent" or you need to proove anything else?
b) Is there a maximum time to run the 40/70 kms?
c) Is it possible to run with your dog or you HAVE to bike with him?
d) I'm quite surprise about the temperature: isn't there a maximum temperature over that you can't do that kind of exam? I know that in sleddog races (ESDRA Rules) that's one of the most importatnt parameter for judges to allow the race begin/continue.

I can immagine that these Q could seem to be silly to most of you. Sorry about that: i really don't know much about this exam but it sounds interesting to me. Thanks,

Stefano

http://runningwolves.spaces.live.com

[saschia]

Hi,

there are time limits, which the dog has to achieve to get proper mark. The detailed rules of SVP 1 - 3 are available in slovak, english and german versions upon request at [email protected] or [email protected].

[Huan]

Originally Posted by BWolf

a) The final ranking depends just on the final time? I mean, it's just like a race or there's a judgment on "how" they run the 40/70 kms? Is there a maximum time to finish the race and get "excellent" or you need to proove anything else?

To get the excellent note the dog should run with average speed of 12km/h. That means 3:20h for 40km. 5:50h for 70km and 8:20h for 100km.

Originally Posted by BWolf

b) Is there a maximum time to run the 40/70 kms?

Yes, there is.

40km run
less than or equal 3h 20 min = excellent
3h 21 min - 3h 40 min = very good
3h 41 min - 4h 00 min = good
more than 4 hours = not passed

70km run
less than or equal 5h 50 min = excellent
5h 51 min - 6h 20 min = very good
6h 21 min - 7h 00 min = good
more than 7 hours = not passed

Originally Posted by BWolf

c) Is it possible to run with your dog or you HAVE to bike with him?

You can run or go by bike.

Originally Posted by BWolf

d) I'm quite surprise about the temperature: isn't there a maximum temperature over that you can't do that kind of exam?

This is something to think about. The official regulation as far as I know doesn't say anything about maximum temperature for the run to take place. You're right that this is very hard to run when the temperature is high. Last weekend we did 70km with our dog in Slovakia. It was sunny but the nice cold wind did decrease temperature to 10-12 C but unfortunately in the last 20km the wind stopped to blow and the temperature jumped to 25 C . On the other hand the speed of 12km/h is not so much and the body of the dog is not getting so hot as in the sprint runs or sleddog runs (of course if you trained with your dog before).

[hanninadina]

As you wrote it, Przemek, in sledgdogging is a limit, where you are not allowed to run:

under 16 C, ok
between 16 and 18 C not more than 2,5 km
between 18 and 20 C not more than 1,5 km
between 20 and 22 C only runersclass not more than 2,5 km
over 22 C no starts, even not for runers!

And that is the point, why are you doing 40 km in such hot conditions? Because the rules were made so, were made how long ago, 40, 50 years? Now a days people have more knowledge about health from animals and so on. And please don´t tell me, wolves are able to run 100 km per Night, of course they are, but they are doing it in the night and not on day with sun is shining!

So from my point of view not everything is good and some things must be changed. Please Przemek and Margo, you speak the language, try to explain the people in slovakia that this is today not the standard, they have to change rules!

Christian

[BWolf]

Originally Posted by Przemek

This is something to think about. The official regulation as far as I know doesn't say anything about maximum temperature for the run to take place. You're right that this is very hard to run when the temperature is high. Last weekend we did 70km with our dog in Slovakia. It was sunny but the nice cold wind did decrease temperature to 10-12 C but unfortunately in the last 20km the wind stopped to blow and the temperature jumped to 25 C . On the other hand the speed of 12km/h is not so much and the body of the dog is not getting so hot as in the sprint runs or sleddog runs (of course if you trained with your dog before).

Thanks a lor for your answer. I really appreciate it and I hope some new rules will be made about it. It's not safe to run (even at 12km/h) if the temperature rise too much.

Stefano

[Huan]

Really strange comparision. I don't know what does sleddog breeds as Siberian husky or Alaskan Malamute have to do with Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs. Don't you see the prefixes Siberia or Alaska? It's obvious these breeds are not used to higher temperatures and 16 C appears reasonable for them. That is why the Czechoslovakian wolfdog shouldn't be long-haired with large undercoat during summer. We do not own arctic breeds but a breed which is versatile in his uses.

Originally Posted by hanninadina

And please don´t tell me, wolves are able to run 100 km per Night

I can tell you they can run for much longer distances as 190km.

Sorry but after watching many wolfdogs I can tell that ANY typical Czechoslovakian Wolfdog which didn't spend all his life sleeping on a coatch or sitting in a kennel should be able to run for 40km in the time under 4 hours. Even if the conditions are not optimal. This looks different for 100km and this one is a real endurance test where a wolfdog without training can have serious problems (mostly with the paws). Please look at purposes of CzW and sleddogs:
- sleddogs should run in winter pulling the sledge
- CzWs should be endurable in ANY conditions; it's not an exception when a tracking dog has to work a whole day in a sun going after someone (I mean real tracking and not silly sport tracking)

However this is not a "run or die" thing as you try to present it. Every 10-20km there is a check on every wolfdog when they control paws and any dog showing exhaustion or with wounds are not allowed to run futher.

But I have to say that I'm missing this exam in a lot of dogs that work in Czech Republic. I saw some CzWs doing nice protection work but moving like molosses - even judges laughted saying that this dog will never reach the last point of revieur . The 40km run should be obligatory for any wolfdogs because soon the CzWs running for 100km will be only a myth!

I see that again we're moving on different levels. When I was speaking about working dogs I didn't meant dogs that do "sit" or "down" but the ones that get ZVV/SchH/IPO 2-3. The same is about endurance. For me a running for 40km with a wolfdog in a winter is not endurance test.

I know that such endurance can be for you unimaginable but this is a feature which make typical CzWs such unique between other dog breeds. I know that for SV people a run of 20km is a really hard endurance test for German Shepherd Dogs but for CzWs is nothing else than a walk. Balrog did on Sunday 70km in 5 hours and 30 minutes that means 20 minutes before limit for excellent note and the last few kilometeres he was still able to run for 15-16km/h. On the finish he DIDN'T fall down in exhaustion. He started to play with our CzWs and showing his high tail to other male woldogs And I'm sure that during such weather he would be able to run for the next 30km and get SVP3- after all he had a reserve of 4:30 hours to do the last 30km. But we couldn't do this because of regulations (first he has to pass SVP2 in order to start in SVP3).

[hanninadina]

Strange comparison? No, I think not because I was talking about dog races and not about living areas. And a "short" endurance race of 40 km is a race too. Otherwise I would not understand why there are times to be in to get excellent, very good and so on.

Talking about races means for me comparison not to Huskies and Malamutes in winter in Alaska. But it means for me for example the dryland worldchampionship in germany in december 2006 where my Briard and me took place with 999 other dogs and 330 racers in different classes. Talking about race distances over 3 to 7 km, run or die. Talking about racedogs which are taking part and there were only a very few of Siberian Huskies and of course no malamutes. Most there were Deutsche Kurzhaar, Alaskan Huskies which have short coat, even only skin. And for these dogs the rules I mentioned above were made. And they were not made because these dogs are not able to run when it is 24 C but they were made for health condition of the dogs! The most dogs I mentioned have even shorter coat/skin/fur than a csw!

You are right, there are no more breeds despite the csw which are runing about 40 km and more. I know some Briards which are going 20 km runs. Even so my briard is doing fine the 40 km and we will prove on saturday.

But talking about how far can a csw run, everything has be oriantated at the wolves. I never heard that a wolf was runing 190 km in one night... Maybe it is possible. One of the german wolves did 67 km in one night in the last 5 years. What I meant is that because the csw should be able to run long distances as a wolf you don´t have to forget that a wolf would never run at the day and of course not in the sun that distances! Wolves go for hunt when it starts getting dark. They hunt in the night and return in the morning. And if you are talking about what a csw should be able to do you have to think what does a wolf do and of course what is normal and good for the health of the animal. That is why we have a brain and can think and dog can not!

So, if you would say ok compared to a wolf it makes sence that wolfdog runs should be made only in time when temperature is around 10 C, I think this would be practical and good for every dog! You would give to the health of the animal respect. It is no question every normal dog would die for his owner and that is why they run for you even when it is 25 C.

It seems that some people care more for the animals than others. And to be honest, if a veterianrian in germany from the governement would get to know that someone is doing a 40 km run in temperature from 20 C and more you would get a punishment and where treated by law, that is for sure. That is why I meant that not everything what is old and was invented must be good. Some things are developing. And we have to go with the times. And that makes changing necessary. And guess what, why do you thing that wolves are living only in the north of the earth and not in the south? The most south living wolves are in Israel, India, but there are only a few. A few onces in spain, but the most wolves are living not only in empty spaces where not much people are living but also in areas where it is not so hot and there are much much wood where it is in summer cold.

I totally agree with you that every csw should be able to do the 40 km run and I think sure it could be part of the bonitation.

And for me personally 40 km is nothing, I went with my mountain bike in 6 days over 500 km and made an alps crossing not streets but only small ways.

Christian

[Huan]

I'm using information of wolf researchers. Henryk Okarma quoted in his "Wilk" book that according to Mech,1970 a distance of 70km in one night is nothing uncommon and there was also observation of one pack in Finland which was running for 200km WITHOUT INTERUPTION - source: Pulliainen, 1965.`

Originally Posted by hanninadina

It is no question every normal dog would die for his owner and that is why they run for you even when it is 25 C.

Have you ever make an endurance test with Czechoslovakian wolfdog? I can assure you they will never run even for their owner up to the moment in which they die. I would say more: they will stop even when they are bored of it (that this is the reason why nobody does 5km circles on exam). They do have THE INSTINCT OF SELF PRESERVATION. It is the reason why so many people do have problems to make the 40km run. If the wolfdog doesn't want to run he will not do it. He doesn't run just to run - it is not that type of the breed. We are not talking about Siberian huskies. We speak about extremly opportunistic breed.

Originally Posted by hanninadina

And to be honest, if a veterianrian in germany from the governement would get to know that someone is doing a 40 km run in temperature from 20 C

Please quote the real regulations of the German law because that means that practically the 40km runs should be banned in Germany. Maybe something to consider for the run that takes place next weekend. In the sun the temperature can get above 20 C and so what then?

For me saying that if the dog runs above 20 C is bad and at 16 C is good is a dangerous generalisation. For some breed the temperature of 10 C can be dangerous. Let the newfoundlander to run for 40km or the boxer at 16 C and 40km.

By the way: SVP1-3 exams are not old as you say. The regulation has been approved 2 years ago by FCI - apparently the lawyers at FCI didn't have any problems with it. I don't care that for example if it is forbidden in Germany or Albanien. The most important it is approved by FCI (and EU law) and Slovak and Czech Clubs.

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Originally Posted by Przemek

Please quote the real regulations of the German law

I would be extremly interested in that law too.
(And please, I am still waiting for the place in the Dorit Feddersen -Petersen book where she talks about the 1/3 thing)

Originally Posted by Przemek

because that means that practically the 40km runs should be banned in Germany. Maybe something to consider for the run that takes place next weekend. In the sun the temperature can get above 20 C and so what then?

This would be very sad because it would be the first 40km run Christian ever saw in his life but very likely because the forecast is 22-29° C.

Ina

[Kerstin]

What Christian mentioned are the rules of the SHC and all assigned clubs which are members of the FCI

These rules are not for "sleddogs" only but for all dogs which are taking part on national/international races in Germany. All kind of dogs are starting in these competitions, not only "northern" dogs, but hunting dogs, runnig dogs etc.

Apart from the fact, that these rules make sense for these kind of competition, everyone of us has the opportunity to say no- my dog is not starting/continuing in a competition which can cause damage to the dog. We should be able to judge our dogs and their limits also. A well trained dog might have no problems at whatever temperature- a bad trained dog might have problems no matter how the temperature is like.

WE ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR OUR DOGS - not anyone else.

Wish you all a sunny day and a wonderful weekend.

Regards,
Kerstin

[nanouk]

I have been thinking about this topic a lot...

What i value in our wolfdogs (may it be twd or swd) is their bodystructure, which when correct, enables them to trott a certain way. not race, but a relaxed trott, which imho in a healthy dog, the size of our wolfdogs , their ability to stretch, the long limbs, should easily be the 12+ k an hour.

two weeks ago a marathon was cancelled in holland, halfway through more or less, some pro's had already finished, at a not as good as normal time! I find this correct, same as i find it correct to cancel other races at a certain temperature!
But i don#t feel this endurance run can be compared to a marathon, and i dearly hope those running it don't see it that way.
What is the difference to me?
In a marathon , or any race, you take yourself/animal to the limits of its abilities, seeking those limits, factors as temperature do indeed influence this a lot!
The endurance test imho this taking to the max is one of the signs that a dog has actually failed the test. IMHO this tests should be able to be done at a relaxed trott, never coming near the limits.
a week and a half ago i took my boy biking, first since a long time, cause it was a long time since i have been in holland. I took him from my home town to delft, about 15 k, untrained, other than our daily walks. He was unleashed most of the time, picking his own trotting pace, mostly offroad. Because of a miscommunication i was not picked up and had to go back on bike as well. That left me worried a bit, but i took him back, don#t ask me time, i just made sure he could follow me at an easy trott, offroad in the grass most of the time however. Yes it was sunny and warm, but my boy never experienced any problems, his pads looked good all the way, and that evening he went with me horsebackriding and showed no fatigue signs. next day i was a little soar, i had not ridden abike or horse for over a yr, my boy however was ready to move and play.
That imho is one of the strenghts and one of the specifics i love and value about our wolfdogs, their natural strenght, combined with a wonderfull gait.
the endurance test as i see it is a way to tast and also train the natural abilities of the dog, never seek the limits.
I have never seen a endurance test, hope to one day, however not with my boy, he takes to little pleasure in walking next to my bike leashed, but i hope someone can tell me my assumption an the test has been right, and in the process, explain to me why there is need for placing dogs, which could lead to taking it into a race, which is imho taking it on another level , pushing dogs to limits to aquire 1st place and best time

[loco]

Gongratulations to all the dogs.

I'm curious to know,at what age you all begin to train your dogs
to walk next to the bike.
This question,because of in Holland they say that you are crazy when you begin earlier than the age of 1 year this because of HD,
with the dogs like german sheperd and belgium sheperd.
And this is mine first CSW he is now 4,5 month's old,not because I want to start already with him next to the bike but just because he is now already more active than the ordinary adult dog and walks already more,and then home still jumps to the ceiling.
So I think it must be also possible to start earlier with a CSW.
Bud then again, I have absolut no experience with a CSW,so that is why mine question to all of you.
Hope to hear from you ,
Groetjes Martine

[Kerstin]

Hi Martine,

I would not start so early. Even one year appears pretty early for a wolfdog because they need a long time to develope complete. We started training when the dogs were grown up, and we had the HD result. We startet serious training when the dogs were older than 1,5 years old. Before that you always have the chance to teach the dog the commands and basic obedience. With this background it is much easier to start. Of course you can try little distances, but you will both ask for more pretty soon but a kilometer should be enough in a moderate speed.
And of course no pulling on the collar

Have fun,
Kerstin

[Liesbeth]

Hi Martine,

I started to train with Jennah a few weeks ago. She's almost 12 months old. But I follow the scheme that's on wolfdog (3 months; longest version). But I'm beginning with 1 km every 2 days in the first 3 weeks. Also because it's very hot now (today 30°!). The 4th week (that's now for me), I do what's on the scheme for the second week. Today I did 2,5 km, but in this weather, it's not so nice for the dogs (I went at 19:30, but it was still 24°). In a few weeks, Jennah will get X-rayed, so that I know what I'm doing (with her hips...). I think there will be no problem, so I keep training her (not much like you see!). I start now, because I already want her to get used to the bike. I must say that it was absolutely no problem. She followed very well from the first time. When the weather stays like this, I maybe stop for a while, because Jennah still has her wintercoat. You have to know your own dog a bit, then it will be no problem. But start very easy! One kilometer is nothing, I know, but you have to start like that... I hope this is an answer to your question! Otherwise you can contact me in a private message, so we can speak our own language (that's a bit easier )

Greetings,

liesbeth

[Nebulosa]

Originally Posted by Hanninadina

It seems that some people care more for the animals than others. And to be honest, if a veterianrian in germany from the governement would get to know that someone is doing a 40 km run in temperature from 20 C and more you would get a punishment and where treated by law, that is for sure. That is why I meant that not everything what is old and was invented must be good. Some things are developing. And we have to go with the times. And that makes changing necessary. And guess what, why do you thing that wolves are living only in the north of the earth and not in the south? The most south living wolves are in Israel, India, but there are only a few. A few onces in spain, but the most wolves are living not only in empty spaces where not much people are living but also in areas where it is not so hot and there are much much wood where it is in summer cold.

If that is truth will exist wolves down the capricornian line as have in Europe and North America.

[hanninadina]

Sorry, I have in the moment not much time. But Przemek you will find the race regulations on the homepage of ESDRA there under ESDRA-Regulations Part II. This race regulations ist for snow and off-snow races and everyone who is organizing such a race have to watch these rules out. And as Kerstin mentioned it stands under der FCI.

And I have to repeat there is only a very little number of typical sleddoges like Siberian Huskies taking part. The alaskan huskies have short coat even like a german hunt dog or a pointer which are often used too. The (scandinavian) hounddog is a mixtured out of german huntdogs (deutscher Kurzhaar), pointer and alaskan husky.

Ina, it is a real pity that you as a vetenerian doesn´t know about this rules! It is better you say nothing. I guess you know it from Miguel - if Michael your husbnad told you - that the worldchampionship was a real big one with 330 racers with 1.000 dogs and lots of visitors. It was a professional race.

Christian

I did not read all of your statements. I will, but not now

[hanninadina]

Here is the link Przemek where you can download the rules.

http://www.esdra.net/sites/index.htm

Ach ja, Ina, 40 km, klar in Lazne Belohrad habe ich es gesehen. Aber, wo ist da das Problem?

Christian

[saschia]

I would like to add that the short-coated races without undercoat suffer in heat more than CsW, because the (although thin in summer) undercoat protects them from warm weather also. It is like in India - people walk around not in shorts and naked, but in long dresses of many layers, which protect them from the sun. The layered dress, as well as good coat with undercoat, creates microclimatic conditions which prevents overheating as well as loss of water and salts from the skin.

The CsW are better equipped than other dog races not only against winter, but against all kinds of weather. And, the long distance runs are done in much slower rates, a wolfdog is able tu trot at 19 km/h, but the average velocity to pass the exams excellently is 12 km/h and to pass them at all 10 km/h. That gives enough time for rests, drinking and other things to prevent dehydration and overheating.

I agree that to make this exams in the middle of summer would not be good (although I played soccer at high summer Texas noon and didn't fall dead - and I am no wolfdog either). Therefore the exams are held in spring and autumn and start early in the morning.

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Originally Posted by Nebulosa

If that is truth will exist wolves down the capricornian line as have in Europe and North America.

That for sure is wrong.