Saarloos mixes by "Crying Wolf" kennel (CSV red colored)

[GalomyOak]

Originally Posted by Jennin Lauma

As far as I have understood it is possible to make a DNA test to see if two individuals have same parents (siblings) or one parent (half-siblings) without a sample from the parents needed (by only comparing the supposed siblings DNA to each other).

I asked our official AKC club DNA profiling lab about this possibility, and they said it was necessary to have both parents, as well as the individual. I guess dogs and humans are different in this way, since I think human siblings can be identified without the DNA of their parents. It's what really makes it so critical to identify and solve these problems before dogs die, and their genes are lost...

[yukidomari]

Originally Posted by GalomyOak

I asked our official AKC club DNA profiling lab about this possibility, and they said it was necessary to have both parents, as well as the individual. I guess dogs and humans are different in this way, since I think human siblings can be identified without the DNA of their parents. It's what really makes it so critical to identify and solve these problems before dogs die, and their genes are lost...

so it's not even possible to tell if two dogs are full siblings if all we have are specimens from the two?

[Rona]

In this situation, if owners of the questioned-identity dogs' parents will continue refusing to cooperate, the only reasonable option is to withdraw ALL suspected dogs/lines from breeding.

...and claim rectification from the breeder?

[CDaniela]

Originally Posted by Jennin Lauma

As far as I have understood it is possible to make a DNA test to see if two individuals have same parents (siblings) or one parent (half-siblings) without a sample from the parents needed (by only comparing the supposed siblings DNA to each other).

Our breed is loaded with inbreeding. Variability of the breed (genes) is very small. Dogs are genetically very similar. This is not a problem for "human race" (for example).
The only reliable test is paternity and maternity.

If we wanted to determine the difference between SW and CSW, we produce DNA profile of about 100 or more CSW and Sw. Comparing these profiles we can determine the difference. It is likely that some alleles are characteristic only for CSV and others only for Sw. Problem can occur if the genetic difference between SW and SW insignificant (low).

[Shadowlands]

Thank you all, you have cleared up a lot of questions in my mind

Now I am only a little confused instead of completely...

It is a shame that DNA from the siblings (and their lines) cannot be used as I, for one, would have submitted that for a test.

[Jennin Lauma]

Originally Posted by CDaniela

If we wanted to determine the difference between SW and CSW, we produce DNA profile of about 100 or more CSW and Sw. Comparing these profiles we can determine the difference. It is likely that some alleles are characteristic only for CSV and others only for Sw. Problem can occur if the genetic difference between SW and SW insignificant (low).

Surely there should be a clear difference due to the different wolf subspecies used in creation of the breeds. Of course these mix breedings done during the years have messed up that to some extent but it should be possible to recognize such mixes also by comparing the dog's genes with the genes of European and American wolves.
But how much the fact, that also GSD was created from wolf x dog crosses, would problemize this since it is in both CsV and SWH?
Is there allready a DNA profile for GSD done? If there is, then it is possible to rule out the genes typical for GSD, and distinguish the ones that are not.

Within the last 15 years there has been massive genetic studies of wolves around the world and these days they can even genetically distinguish different wolf subspecies inside the US. So I'd think it should be relatively easy to distinguish an European wolf from American.

The price for such a test is likely to be alot more expencive than the average parental test though.

[admin]

Originally Posted by Rona

In this situation, if owners of the questioned-identity dogs' parents will continue refusing to cooperate, the only reasonable option is to withdraw ALL suspected dogs/lines from breeding.
...and claim rectification from the breeder?

It is hard to writew it but it seems so.
Due to the fact that the Crying Wolf breeder do not agree to make the DNA tests (is affraid that the true will be shown?) which will proove that father of Sibir is Galiba and that no Saarloos was used by this kennel (intentionally or not). And because we can have doubts by all dogs sired by him - the only reasonable option is to remove all litters with this blood and really put the option "under investigation" warning next to all dogs with the suspicious Crying Wolf blood.
Maybe owners of the offsprings will be more successful by clearing this story.

[Norky]

Edit (Crying Wolf ) made DNA test some of her suspected dogs, all are csw...and some Crying Wolf owners made it also ...of course all are csw!
To see what happened when Frank posted his result (Yanatos) these people are not ready to make it for public.
Edit wrote about a year ago that she is not ready to cooperate and write anything here...as she and her dogs were mired several times.

And the kennel Neckartal ....
I think it is enough to see the data sheet ..
Edit for dogs are beautiful, and it is a fact.
Prestigious showresults what many people (including me) only dream of.
One breeder is at home in Hungary, and she is Edit.
We only can we learn from the big breeders.
I see a pointless debate ...
Why can not we bring together more?

[admin]

Originally Posted by Norky

Edit (Crying Wolf ) made DNA test some of her suspected dogs, all are csw...

She made it? How can we be sure that she took the blood of the right dogs - males? Why she didn't agree to test the dogs on the official way or by the Lorry's vet and the official laboratory?
Did she testeds the DNA of Sibir - did she have proofs that he is the son of Galiba? I will ask Lorry if she get the copy of the results.

So far: taking into consideration the fact that in many cases words written and published here by Edith were simple lies I will personally not trust her even a bit.
I would be also surprised if any breeder would say "my dogs are mixes"...

If the dogs are OK than I think it will be no problem to make a official comission (maybe made by the clubs from the origin countries) who will travel there and take blood of the dogs (not all of course because there are too many - i mean only the suspicious one. The same can be done in France. It will be pretty easy to arrange it, right?

Originally Posted by Norky

Edit wrote about a year ago that she is not ready to cooperate and write anything here...as she and her dogs were mired several times.

When? I remember the case when she bred the 10 years old bitch after she told she will not breed her anymore and that even that her kennel club forbid breeding with so old dogs. I do not wonder that many breeders didn't agreed with such style of breeding. But it was not attacking but they were just speaking theirs mind. It is something normal on a disscusion forum.

Originally Posted by Norky

Prestigious showresults what many people (including me) only dream of

Can you repeat it to Lorry? She had to take out of breeding her male and female and also all the offspring of the dogs. Becasue nobody DREAMS about red or Saarloos alike puppies.

Originally Posted by Norky

We only can we learn from the big breeders.

Believe me - I'm not an longtime owner but reading the post posted here on forum I hope nobody would learn from her how to breed or how to keep the dogs. In mMy opinion every dog deserves a stately life and decent living conditions and what I see on the photos taken in her kennel do not fullfil even the minimun of the requirements.

[Norky]

Dear Admin!

Misunderstood me.

I wrote the owner of the Neckartal kennel the last rows.
This whole situation is depressing ...
And infuriating ...
They should act together not stretched as a common goal.
In my opinion Edit breeders.
A great success with their dogs.
Of course, as many others.

And you see, not only internationally but also in Hungary is taking place to discredit each other.
I have had enough of this ..
I do not understand the whole thing ... why is it good?

Neckartal kennel ....
In my case, you know ...
I did not write forums it would be a reason.

Sooner or later the truth always reveals.

Regards:
Aniko Molnar
vom Hause Norky kennel

[monita]

I'll agree anytime with the things Norky spoke of. If you do DNA tests asked by others, because at the moment they say not to buy dogs from Hungarian people. I'm Hungarian too. I would do the test for peace. And if the test is good, there's no place for arguments.

P.S. I congratulate you for your best dog (titles, character --- CH. Nork von Neckartal)

Maybe you bought it from a breeder?

[Norky]

Hehehe
Yes, I bought from you.
(non-breeder)
Nork: hd c
Myra: hd d
I bought for breeding purposes, but you did not take any responsibility.
Screening results of the parents have not seen,and very interesting on this side either.
This is not a work of breeders.

But if you think you still proceed.

[Morian]

Myra: hd d

but you bred her

[Norky]

Yes, you're right ...
The breeder said HD:B
I was doing a formal investigation and revealed the truth...

[Morian]

what are you talking about? you say that monita is not a breeder and show here 1 bad hd result. did you see hd results of dogs bred by edit? dm results?.. each kennel can have some pups with bad hd, even from healthy lines and parents. this is not a reson to blame people by this way, sorry.

and "breeder said" - you believed it without official evaluation and bred tmyra wothout it?..

[Norky]

Not a bad result there is a problem ...
The attitude ...
Yes, I believed in what he says ...but I will not do

If you had been in this situation,I do not think so you could see that.


But really it's all the same...

[Morian]

Originally Posted by Norky

If you had been in this situation,I do not think so you could see that.

nor you if you had red pups or dogs suffering from dm...

[Norky]

You know, this is all a joke...

Everyone here want to destroy each other ..
It's disgusting and disappointing ..

Why should it?

I do not participate in this...

[Morian]

Originally Posted by Norky

Everyone here want to destroy each other ..

and some of us want to destroy the breed, yes

Originally Posted by Norky

It's disgusting and disappointing ..

exactly...

[Priska182]

I would like to understand... Why some dogs named "!!!MIX!!!" are put as mix in the database?
Did DNA test have been done for them? And if it’s the case why often the 2 parents shown in there pedigree are real CsV?

Like for example: Ckynaï de la Louve Blanche (!!!_MIX_!!!) who is: 2 x Best Puppy, 4 x BOB, 1 x Best Junior, 2 x CACIB, 4 x CACS, 1 x res. CAC, 3 x res. CACIB, 3 x CAC, 1 x res. CACS, Ch.LUX