Go Back   Wolfdog.org forum > English > Sport & training

Sport & training Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs as working dogs - how to train, how to teach new elements, information about competitions and training seminars...

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 29-09-2011, 02:31   #1
GalomyOak
Howling Member
 
GalomyOak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Colorado
Posts: 436
Send a message via Skype™ to GalomyOak
Default Creating a working/training/character test - what should it look like?

I plan to watch a working aptitude evaluation for Dobermans, sponsored by a local doberman club next month. Dogs that pass the exam receive a certificate saying that they have "working aptitude". Here is an example: And of course, we are all familiar with schutzhund/IPO work. I am starting to think of what a "breed specific exam" might look like for our breed. I think it should include these components:

1. SVP test
2. Tracking (or trailing?) test
3. Obedience test

Since bonitation is a one time event, I would keep that seperate, I think...

Should protection be a part of the exam? I like the scenarios in the Doberman temperament evaluation - portions of it remind me of the temperament portion of the Czech bonitation I was very lucky to attend. Would this short temperament test be a more reasonable test than the more involved and precise protection exams of schutzhund/IPO? I like the ideas of increasing levels of difficulty as well (like IPO 1, IPO 2, IPO 3). Is there anything else that should be included? Thoughts? Just daydreaming of the day we have any such breed specific exams in the USA...I love working with my dogs!
__________________
"What lies behind us and what lies ahead of us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us."~Henry David Thoreau http://www.galomyoak.com
GalomyOak jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-09-2011, 08:31   #2
Vaiva
ir Brukne
 
Vaiva's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Vilnius
Posts: 1,768
Send a message via Skype™ to Vaiva
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GalomyOak View Post
I Is there anything else that should be included? Thoughts? Just daydreaming of the day we have any such breed specific exams in the USA...I love working with my dogs!
I guess we had same topic before... It was maybe about creating a separate test for wolfdogs (like GSD have IPO, belgians have mondioring, etc.), which sounds me like a good idea.
__________________
Walkiria Girios dvasia

Vaiva jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-09-2011, 13:23   #3
*Satu
Junior Member
 
*Satu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 194
Send a message via MSN to *Satu
Default

in Finland all working test have obedience test also. (like in tracking JK1,JK2,JK3 classes) Normal you need passed obedience first then you can go tracking...

This is tracking obe JK3 class





That obediense is different than Real Obedience test (open to all breeds)

Rescue tracking and rescue search are total different also.

Last edited by *Satu; 29-09-2011 at 13:26. Reason: one link more
*Satu jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-09-2011, 13:49   #4
wolfin
Moderator
 
wolfin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Where the wolf lives
Posts: 6,095
Send a message via ICQ to wolfin Send a message via Skype™ to wolfin
Default

this is normal typical IPO B obedience test.
__________________
wolfin jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-09-2011, 17:17   #5
Rona
Distinguished Member
 
Rona's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Kraków
Posts: 3,509
Default

I think there should be a few character/work tests available. Depending on where the dog lives, what is expected from him/her and what the owner considers crucial for the behaviour in a particular setting their could select 2-3 out of 6-7 approved and standardized tests to take and get a "character/work certifiate". This could be defence, OB, tracking/trailing, endurance runs, "socialisation" ie. Dog Citizen Exam, agility, herding, etc.

I think it's unfair to test all the dogs against ONE criterion, if they live in so many different environments and so different kinds of behaviour are expected from them.
__________________

Rona jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-09-2011, 19:35   #6
*Satu
Junior Member
 
*Satu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 194
Send a message via MSN to *Satu
Default

Workingtest is total different than charactertest.

I know very many dogs who have working tittles but doesn´t passed FCI charactertest.
*Satu jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-09-2011, 20:01   #7
Vicky
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rona View Post
I think it's unfair to test all the dogs against ONE criterion, if they live in so many different environments and so different kinds of behaviour are expected from them.
I think the idea, though, is to create a more unified idea of where we want the temperament and working ability to go in the future. To create even more of a predictable, standard temperament in the breed. This won't stop people from indulging in other activities with their dogs as the AKC and UKC have a variety of sports you can participate in. All it will do is create a test based on the things CsVs are BEST at; the things breeders will work towards in their dogs.

As far as the test goes, I like the ideas Marcy's already mentioned. I would either leave off protection, or add a separate test for it that you can obtain an additional title in. I think ALL CsV should be able to pass endurance, obedience, and trailing, but that protection should be more of a case by case basis. Just my 2 cents.
  Reply With Quote
Old 30-09-2011, 11:33   #8
jefta
Call Me Sexy Srdcervac
 
jefta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Wroclaw
Posts: 1,233
Send a message via Skype™ to jefta Send Message via Gadu Gadu to jefta
Default

I don't see any way to check all drives witch balansed, working dog should have, without defense test. Bonitation character test is in my opinion too primitiv because don't answer for a question why dog attack. On wich drive he do it. And this test promote avoidance agresion.
__________________
jefta jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-09-2011, 12:02   #9
Rona
Distinguished Member
 
Rona's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Kraków
Posts: 3,509
Default

I don't agree. I'll never train my dog for defence! Since Lorka arrived to our home I've taught her she should have a very balanced attitude to humans - no jumping, no grapsing - just indifferent or friendly attitude. I walk my dog in busy streets several times a day, let her unleashed in the city common, take her by buses and trams, go to crowded cafes and friendly stores with her. She is used to walking among people who look all differently, with sticks, strange luggage, etc. etc.
I must be sure she'd never want to play "defence game" with anybody. This is my absolute priority! Thus I don't feel like mixing in my dog's head just to pass some test. I saw wofldogs that do very well on the sleeve, but their owners warn people they should not approach them!
__________________

Rona jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-09-2011, 15:46   #10
wolfin
Moderator
 
wolfin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Where the wolf lives
Posts: 6,095
Send a message via ICQ to wolfin Send a message via Skype™ to wolfin
Default

we speak about test or exam? this are big diferent.
__________________
wolfin jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-09-2011, 16:26   #11
*Satu
Junior Member
 
*Satu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 194
Send a message via MSN to *Satu
Default

Baron spod Dumbiera, Ikala spod Dumbiera, Bono z Holstejna and Andradite Rocks´n Jewels have passed FCI character test whit out any training and that test tell only what kind your dog character is.

all my dog can walk whit me in the city like 2 weeks ago in Kaunas centrum whit out any problems but all can´t passed that character test.


Last edited by *Satu; 30-09-2011 at 16:33. Reason: link
*Satu jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-09-2011, 17:33   #12
jefta
Call Me Sexy Srdcervac
 
jefta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Wroclaw
Posts: 1,233
Send a message via Skype™ to jefta Send Message via Gadu Gadu to jefta
Default

Rona but it will be test for working dogs not a pets...
__________________
jefta jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-09-2011, 17:54   #13
wolfin
Moderator
 
wolfin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Where the wolf lives
Posts: 6,095
Send a message via ICQ to wolfin Send a message via Skype™ to wolfin
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jefta View Post
Rona but it will be test for working dogs not a pets...
I want test for character, not .. test for good trainer work per 5 years before test
Satu - yes this is good test for character.
I in this year have posibility work in ZTP doberman test- and .. they tested a TRAINING not character test- work a 1-3 year and all dogs pas this. This is test for character? no this is test for good trainer and training posibility. If we speak about CSv for him mas be test with tracking - natural tracking not IPO.
__________________

Last edited by wolfin; 30-09-2011 at 17:59.
wolfin jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-09-2011, 20:59   #14
jefta
Call Me Sexy Srdcervac
 
jefta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Wroclaw
Posts: 1,233
Send a message via Skype™ to jefta Send Message via Gadu Gadu to jefta
Default

Dogs breed using ZTP and IPO and have similar or better quality after few generations. Dogs breed using bonitation test as charakter test and SVP as working test are worst and worst. So mayby something is wrong with the tests?
__________________
jefta jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-09-2011, 21:08   #15
wolfin
Moderator
 
wolfin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Where the wolf lives
Posts: 6,095
Send a message via ICQ to wolfin Send a message via Skype™ to wolfin
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jefta View Post
Dogs breed using ZTP and IPO and have similar or better quality after few generations. Dogs breed using bonitation test as charakter test and SVP as working test are worst and worst. So mayby something is wrong with the tests?
problem not in test but in breeding show champions and .. testing judgements. for this we have new test who begin used in this october.
__________________
wolfin jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-09-2011, 21:15   #16
Morian
Senior Member
 
Morian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: USSR
Posts: 2,047
Send a message via Skype™ to Morian
Default

good evening to all
i didn't understand what do you want to create - character test or test of working abilities/training level? for example if my dog is trained for search and rescue and he can't show any kind of agression, how he would pass test like ipo? will it show that the dog is not good or what?
__________________
Morian jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-09-2011, 21:41   #17
Rona
Distinguished Member
 
Rona's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Kraków
Posts: 3,509
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jefta View Post
Rona but it will be test for working dogs not a pets...
Depends what kind of work the dog does. It would be silly to assume that defence is the only kind of work. A dog that works in dogotherapy should not and as far as I know must not be trained for defence!

Besides, for me there is a huge difference between work and sport. Some train their dogs for sports and exams only, others - for work. I mean real work.
__________________

Rona jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-09-2011, 22:02   #18
Tazer
Junior Member
 
Tazer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 77
Default

In uk working trials, as far as I'm aware, the defence/protection part is optional, rather than required.

So you can do the obedience, tracking etc, without the bite work if you want to.


Taz
__________________
Never argue with idiots.
they drag you down to their level,
then beat you with experience.
Tazer jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2011, 04:11   #19
GalomyOak
Howling Member
 
GalomyOak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Colorado
Posts: 436
Send a message via Skype™ to GalomyOak
Default

In the US, we use the following terms:

Trial = Obedience, Schutzhund (all parts)
Test = Tracking (AKC), Canine Good Citizen (Character test)

A character test is very short, and I agree, it doesn't necessarily show the drive of the dog (or rather, it maybe trained or misinterpreted). Also, I agree that not all dogs need/should be trained in protection. Also I agree that "sport" dogs maybe totally different than what a handler desires, even in protection - working more from a prey drive than defense, and maybe not as serious or "sleeve happy" (only wanting to bite a sleeve).

We are in a position now of introducing our breed to the AKC. We have requested to join the "Working" group (instead of herding) - AKC also plans to "realign" it's groups, and the working group will be split into 3 - spitz/northern, mollesar and working utility. We hope to be included in "working utility", which includes multi-purpose breeds with a variety of jobs, from a variety of background. AKC wants to know what kind of work/tests/trials we plan to breed, train and compete towards. It is kind of a neat thing to be able to create exactly what we want in terms of tests or trials...but also very important to be headed in the right direction!

I think a CSV specific trial should maybe look like:

Part 1: Obedience
Part 2: Natural tracking/trailing (AKC tracking is a "hybrid" of IPO and trailing - the dog must take all corners, but may "cast" off of the trail very far - there are no points given, only a "pass" (if the scent article is found), or a "fail" - in more advanced levels, the track is 3-5 hours old, much longer, obstacles such as water, and more scent articles. We also have a tracking test for urban/city environments. A test for CSV might focus more on a faster time, and less on "exactness" of following the tracks - more like trailing.
Part 3: Endurance (something like SVP, but also maybe something else - dependent upon local terrain - like a course through mountain trails, for instance)

Optional test (sort of like an FH or AD in schutzhund): Protection

Seperate Character test (or maybe mandatory to participate in the :
a. test specific to the CSV (I look forward to seeing Wolfin's new test that she referred to!) - this should be included with bonitation
b. minimum - Canine Good Citizen test (to ensure civility of the dog in public situations)

At least in the USA, it is possible to compete in many sports, including tracking, obedience, agility, rally obedience, dock diving, therapy work, nosework (scent detection) - and since recently, an aptitude test for lure-coursing and herding - for all breeds. So I don't think it should be a problem for anyone who wishes to try and (or all!) of these.

I have already sent the AKC these videos:
http://www.swr.de/im-gruenen-rp/-/id=100810/did=5436364/pv=video/nid=100810/4meu2n/index.html
__________________
"What lies behind us and what lies ahead of us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us."~Henry David Thoreau http://www.galomyoak.com
GalomyOak jest offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 08:21.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
(c) Wolfdog.org