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Standard de la race & bonitations Quelle doit être l’apparence d’un CLT, dimensions et commentaires sur le standard de la race, informations à propos des bonitations...

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Old 14-01-2009, 00:21   #21
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si vous y regarder de plus pres vous pourrez voir a la fin de l etude elle emploie le terme "open hair" .. traduit pour nous en "poil ouvert" .. voila ... la plupart de son son travail est en image sauf pour ce sujet ci malhereusement ... ...(au sujet des levres distendues c'est assez interressant egalement .. car peux ressurgir avec des mariages non adequats)bonne nuit a tous .. frank
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Old 15-01-2009, 07:52   #22
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On dit qu'il faudrait éviter de shampooigner son chien juste avant une expo. Quand je fais un shampooing à Shakes, pendant 2 jours, il a l'air d'un pompom...
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Old 15-01-2009, 08:50   #23
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Salut,

La portée de Dark sotis à effectivement ce problème.Je l'ai beaucoup moins pronocé sur mon chien mais au touché plus que à la vu on remarque une différence de texture.D'ailleur sur les photos du site l'on ne remarque presque rien.

Effectivement Lorris, quand l'on caresse ces chiens à rebrousse poil , le poil reste hirsute.

Et c'est effectivement un descendant d'Orlik.

Et encore un fois, le pays d'origine c'est bien gardé de nous avertir de ce problème dans la lignée.

Alors c'est sur que ce n'est pas une nouveauté, mais jouer sur la transparence de ce qui nous arrive en France est beaucoup plus constructif pour l'avancé de la race.

Au même titre que les autres tares que nous allons découvrir au fils des années.

Pour récapituler, nous avons déja:

le masque foncé (plutôt facile à éviter maintenant)
le poil long (impossible à prévoir sur une portée)
le poil ouvert (à part la lignée Orlik comment faire pour ne pas en avoir?)
le masque clair (trop recent pour être sur de ne pas en avoir)
l' épilepsie

J'ai oublié quelques choses?

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Old 15-01-2009, 12:45   #24
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Oui !!!!! (enfin là, je parle pour moi....)

Le manque de P1 (des 2 côtés de la mâchoire) ..... comme ce sont des dents qui se mettent en place à l'âge adulte, on ne le remarque pas tout de suite....(Chienne qui aura 1 an au terme de ce mois)

A ce propos, si quelqu'un connait le risque réel en % de transmission génétique, je suis preneuse des infos et des conseils, car je n'arrive pas à trouver beaucoup de choses à ce sujet sur Internet
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Old 15-01-2009, 13:25   #25
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Originally Posted by furyos View Post
bien au contraire .. souhaiteriez vous croiser des clt CANICHE a terme dans notre cheptel ?????.. perso pas vraiment ..
I'm sorry but I do not have time to write something bigger (I will make it later). But your words wonder me... You already have the "CANICHE" in France. Expecially you...
Do you want to remove all "problematic" dogs from French breeding? Do you really want to remove ALL offsprings of Orlik (he was a typical "caniche")?
You posted as example the dog on the photo but much better example for this topic would be (beside the photos posted by Nebulosa) the photo of the father of Ossa - Fallko Kollárov dvor. He is pretty known dog in Czech Republic and Slovakia because even the short hairs on his head were curly...

Look - the true is that the line in France with the highest number of "curly coat genes" is Crying Wolf-line (because of strong inbreed on Orlik- he was a real "sheep" and one of the main sources for curly coat by CLC). Even if the curly hair is "hidden" . And it is a base line in your kennel. And you have no problem with breeding dogs from this line and even with making stronger inbreed on Orlik... So why such words and such topic? Because the dog comes from other kennel?

I really do not understand such way of criticizing other breeders... In the fact what is said openly about something (Gérard - huge plus for you as breeder!) is much better that breeding with dogs with hidden problems...
And instead of attacking (even on hidden way) others maybe it would be better to discuss the problems and the ways of breeding?

furyos, You say you would not use dogs with curly hair problems in the line. So why you breed with Ossa and Volos? I'm just curious because this and you words I quoted contradict each other.... And are just hypocrisy....

I don't want to attack you but for me your words have nothing to do with trying to improve the breeding, speaking about the ways and technics of breeding but only an excuse to attack other breeder...

What is the truth? Sure we must pay attention to the problems and try to fight with it. I wrote before that no good breeder in the origin country will make strong inbreed on Orlik - exactly because of the coat problem - with such inbreed you make the "problem coat genes" stronger. That's one thing.
Second - dogs with problematic coat are marked during the bonitation (and breeders do not mate two dogs with the same problems). And dogs which have huge coat problem get P14. But it is only in Czech Republic and Slovakia. In France, Hungary, Germany, Italy and Poland nobody follow it... You just see the photos which in many cases lie...

Other thing - nobody exclude such dogs (if the problem is small) because the type of coat come in the most cases with very good structure of the hair (in many cases better than by other lines) and many offprings of such dogs have very nice rich hair...

If you don't want to use "caniche" dogs .... It is your decision - you can make it but as I wrote:
1) it is a hypocrisy (see above )
2) it make no sense because if you make good connection the offspring will be totally OK when it comes to the hair (and dog from your kennel are the best example).

We have the same experiences - one of our friends mated her female with a male with such curly hair (she decided to do this because of the exceptional character of the dog and great body).
Result: ALL puppies have normal hair (+ the great character and high size of the father).
The same made Edith in 'Crying Wolf' - despite of the curly hair she decided to breed with Fallko and thanks to this we have such great dog as for example Galiba (and you have Ossa, Vally and Volos ).

So do you really STILL want to say using dogs with ANY signs of more open hair are a mistake?
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Old 15-01-2009, 14:31   #26
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Originally Posted by indiananous View Post
Et encore un fois, le pays d'origine c'est bien gardé de nous avertir de ce problème dans la lignée.
The curly coat you can see if different lines...
We had one "funny" case by a czech dog (Axa od Rajské chvojky) - the curly coat appeared there (by some puppies in the litter). The puppies were very beautiful but with open hair. It was funny because there was no visible reason in the pedigree for such coat...
But bred further (mated with dogs with normal hair) the problem dissappeared - and as you can see none of the "z Kopáčkova dvora" dogs which you have in France have any problems with the hair...

Other thing - remember - the coat change with the age. More visible problems have puppies. By older dogs in many cases you can not see that the hair was open. You would really wonder which dogs had open hair at the age of 2 years and are (almost) normal now...

Quote:
Originally Posted by indiananous View Post
Pour récapituler, nous avons déja:
le masque foncé (plutôt facile à éviter maintenant)
le poil long (impossible à prévoir sur une portée)
le poil ouvert (à part la lignée Orlik comment faire pour ne pas en avoir?)
le masque clair (trop recent pour être sur de ne pas en avoir)
l' épilepsie
J'ai oublié quelques choses?
You right. What you mentioned is pretty often criticized by easy to bred of. On the other side black mask and unclear mask you can change within one generation - only by using good stud dog. Long hair is récessive to short (nermal) hair. The same it seems to be with curly coat.

At the moment we have problems also with:

- open lips (hanging lips) are HUGE problem especially that it comes with too heavy (too doggish) heads:


How many wolfdogs (mostly male wolfdogs) have typical closed lips like for example this dog:

One "but" here - many young dogs have a little bit open lips when they are young. It is nothing wring. But adult CzW should have already closed lips like the dog above).


- wrinkels (too much coat on the head - usualy it comes with open lips) is other very common problem (since short time also visible not only in Czech Republic but also by some puppies in Slovakia what worry breeders there):


- too long tail (sometimes even touching the ground) is still typical problem:


- wrong formats (short legs) are still the biggest problem because almost nobody pay attention that wolfdog should have long legs and dackles get in Slovakian even P14 (alhtough the dogs seem to be "normal"):


Just look on the format of the "number one" wolfdog in Italy:


No wonder that so many dogs in Italy have VERY bad indexes.... But the problems do not dissappear because the breeders and judges do not fight with it... (of course not all - many dogs in Italy are simply great but the most popular lines have really huge problems with it)

- husky coat - you mentined already the long and open hair. But there is other problem - hair like by huskies (wolves have VISIBLE longer coat on the neck, back and tail and by huskies you have the same lengh on the whole body).... But I can not find good photo for it - but you know how siberian husky look like

- short coat - judges do not find it out because such dogs look like shedding dogs. But "naked" the whole year - they never get long and rich "winter" coat:


The dog look like this whole year - it never gets winter coat. And only breeders can "fight" with it because you must see the dog whole year to see if the dogs is really shedding (typical that wolfdogs loose all hair 2 times a year) or really have untypical short hair....

- size - I heard that the judge from last year saw that the dogs in France are very nice and their "level" is not worser (I personaly would say in many cases better ) than in Czech Republic. But by many nice dogs it was visible that they are on the minimum of the required size. Or sometimes MUCH under the minimum. I don't know if the dogs in France are measured by the confirmation but it is another thing which should be followed....

IN ALL THE CASES I just wanted to show you the problems. If any of you dogs have problems I mentioned - don't worry. There are no perfect dogs. Just do not make the problems bigger mating male and females with the same faults but try to make mating so that the problems dissappear...
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Old 15-01-2009, 14:40   #27
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hi margo ...first /happy new year (not hypocrite words but french civility ).. second/ y don't attack anybody .. (if yu reade my post) y speak about a NEW problem y meet with one of my pupp .last year.... not really curly coat but "ondulation"on neck and back ... the father is merlin .. (just one in all mariage's kennel) y m not hypocrite to show here this PROBLEM ;.... sure y try again to use merlin for other females .. but y understand why yu react on .. because this gene from hero'z rofa fromp orlik .. and yu use him .. and really good choice because EXCELLENT quality on this male .. (see yur eligo and my merlin) ... if gerard feel bad about this post .. edit /yu or everybody can !!!! on ossa and wolos not long hair or open coat y think(too young actually) .. but future show me .... y m not THE BEST ..... y learn every day ... and y note this problem last summer in bonitation with monika .... y ask her about that ...and this is NEW in france ... NEVER WE NOTE That before HERE..... 2 cases actually ... y hope no more for us ... because it's not a real good quality... yu know that and don't closed eyes about this ....now y open this subject (and don't show or speak about anybody) ..it's new and it's my work to show that for the future .. like black mask /too white mask( y have 2 pupps from elia with.. and not imbreeding )/long hair /HD / etc ...ect... well margo yu are professional and like this ...yu know that y m not the reference in this breed (or more exactly we can read this on this forum..).. BUT Y TRY TO FIND MY DREAM ..... actually my work is not perfect too but y try to go in a real good way ... y m the "victim"(but y don't care ) from bad rumors and y m so surprised that yu don't do the same intervention to stop it ... when my kennel is on english forum .. a lot of people try to discredite me ;.. and THIS is not hypocrite .. sure ... it's "difamation"!!! well y hope meet yu again to speak with yu ... y try to contact yu to have information to alistair's litter and yu NEVER reply to me ... y can just understand that yu don't want export a pupp for me ... sorry about that .. best regards .. frank
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Old 15-01-2009, 14:48   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorry - MLS View Post
Le manque de P1 (des 2 côtés de la mâchoire) ..... comme ce sont des dents qui se mettent en place à l'âge adulte, on ne le remarque pas tout de suite....(Chienne qui aura 1 an au terme de ce mois)

A ce propos, si quelqu'un connait le risque réel en % de transmission génétique, je suis preneuse des infos et des conseils, car je n'arrive pas à trouver beaucoup de choses à ce sujet sur Internet
It is not so rare problems by CzW

In some cases the P1 teeth appear later. I know dogs which had missing P1 when they were one year old but everything was OK by the bonitation (18 months old).

If they will not show just make the x-rays. In many cases the teeth are there but do not break through the gum.
If the teeth are there they breed with such dogs - for the bonitation it will be enough to show the judge x-rays and you will not get P14 for missing teeth.
For the dog show the breeders found different solution - they make small operation and the vet cut some part of the gum and make the teeth visible...
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Old 15-01-2009, 15:46   #29
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Originally Posted by Margo View Post
It is not so rare problems by CzW

In some cases the P1 teeth appear later. I know dogs which had missing P1 when they were one year old but everything was OK by the bonitation (18 months old). ...
Je suis d'accord sur le fait que les P1 peuvent se mettrent en place tardivement....mon souci est ailleurs : je souhaite savoir, quel est le % du risque de transmission génétique pour éviter de reproduire le problème à chaque fois que j'utiliserai cette femelle
(si tel était le cas ?)....

Savez vous de quel(s) ancêtre(s), Dheer'Sybb, peut tenir ce problème ??? ou de quelle partie de sa lignée ce problème est déjà connu ???


Quote:
Originally Posted by Margo View Post
If they will not show just make the x-rays. In many cases the teeth are there but do not break through the gum. ...
En effet, il est prévu que je fasse les radios de sa machoire, la semaine prochaine .....j'en saurai plus à ce moment ....


Quote:
Originally Posted by Margo View Post
If the teeth are there they breed with such dogs - for the bonitation it will be enough to show the judge x-rays and you will not get P14 for missing teeth....
En tout cas, jugée en France, par une juge Polonaise, ma chienne a été sortie (non classée) à cause de ce seul motif !!!!
(alors même que tous les chiens ont été jugés sur leur seules allures, et qu'à ce niveau-là, elle n'était pas plus mauvaise qu'une autre ....

Donc, le manque de P1 ne semble pas, si anodin que celà .....


Quote:
Originally Posted by Margo View Post
For the dog show the breeders found different solution - they make small operation and the vet cut some part of the gum and make the teeth visible...
Bien évidement ! Je vais tout tenter avant de considérer que je doive stériliser cette chienne et selon le résultat des radios, je ferai faire inciser la gencive ....

Histoire à suivre ....
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Old 15-01-2009, 16:05   #30
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hi margo ...first /happy new year (not hypocrite words but french civility ).. second/ y don't attack anybody .. (if yu reade my post) y speak about a NEW problem y meet with one of my pupp .last year.... not really curly coat but "ondulation"on neck and back ...
OK, I stop here.... I will come back soon and answer all other topics - there are great topics on your language version but I have no time at the moment, sorry...

I wrote it because EVERY topic on the forum start as theoretically something good but finish as a fight... Also this one....and it is realy pity!

The problem you mentioned is ok, and we can talk about it. But not when it is about the dogs and breeders... I know there are many hidden things between the breeders in France and I understand why most of the topics start as attack and end with fighting. But because of it the real and INTERESTING problem is ignored....

But to have real good dusscusion lets make some things clear...

1) No fight with other breeders because in the most cases when we find 10 faults by other breeders the attacked person can write also 10 faults by our dogs... Because all dogs have faults...

2) Every breeder can make mistakes and sometimes even the best connetions can give very bad results.... Only person who do not breed do not make mistakes...

3) Of course I have nothing against writing about breeders which ONLY make mistakes... But only if the critics include the sulution for a problem...

4) And it makes me really angry when I read that a dog is sharply attacked because of characteristics which are not even a fault but only a scarcity. And the dog is attacked by a breeder which breeds with dogs which really have dissqualification faults (for being clear I do not mean you and this topic).
For long time the laudest people on forum were people who have very low knowledge about the breed standard. And they attacked other almost for nothing.... In the most cases simply because they had no IDEA about what is really a fault and what is really important by CzW....

5) There are NO "ugly" dogs which should not to be bred with! EVERY dog have pluses and minuses. And the difference between good and bad breeder is that good breeder knows the faults and try to make the puppies looking better or much better than the parents.
And bad breeder is a person who believe to have such perfect dogs that they do not need any improvement. And who mate them with other "perfect" dogs when in the reality his dogs are only average or poor quality and the puppies also...
In the history there were many Wolfdogs which were "ugly" looking but thanks to wise matings gave very nice offprings and people really LOVE their lines now... There are so many dogs which were criticized by other breeders in their times but now they are sometimes called to be dogs which "saved" the breed...
Such "ugly" dogs criticized by some breeders were Milo Ruskov dvor (known now for the offsprings with great HD-results and character), Tambury z Rosikova, Kondor z Krotkovskeho dvora and Hero z Rofa (known for the wolfish look by the offsprings), Carr Maly Bysterec (know for yellow eyes, nice look and characters by his puppies), Orlik z Rosikova (known for yellow eyes and nice heads), Ali Reolup (know for great look and HD-results). And I can write much more males. ALL these dogs were attacked by some breeders which were screaming "I will never use this dog"...
It made me laugh when the biggest enemies went to cover their females by these males or their offsprings...


Because of fighting people stop to write about any problems and exchange information. And what is told behing the back is much worser than the open posts written on official forum...
I know it - we had the same situation in Poland. All people writing on the forum were attacked by one of the breeders. If your puppies was pissing at home you were called as bad owner. If you dog was not walking on the leash - you are bad owner. The dog is not standing still on the dog show - you are bad owner and bad breeder... It was long time so and people were affraid till it came out that the worstest dogs with worstest behaviour on the dog shows and most shy toward people are the dog of.. the breeder who attacked other people...
Sorry but all you can do is just to ignore such trolls. And write...
And we will try to kick out all people which only write accusation but no facts and nothing which can be usefull and helpfull...

Now I will have finally more time to write so if anybody has any questions I will try to answer them. Calm....
On the other side I'm really interested in the French population of CzW - beside the Slovakian dogs it seems to me to be second most interesting source of great dogs... Really great work - not so long time ago I was writing to the polish kennel club magazine about the "French jackals" promoted by one of the main kennels in FR and now...I would have to remove the word "French" because such weak build dogs are almost no more visible here.... (I hope the same will be in Poland and also the wolfdogs in the "Czech-Polish Shepherd Dog" type will also dissappear... )
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Old 15-01-2009, 17:33   #31
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etant donné mon anglais mediocre..... voir innexistant je vais avoir du mal à traduire tout ça ...
si je comprends bien, ce que nous trouvons être des "tares" disons de petites imperfections qu'il faurait eviter ne le sont pas aux yeux de certains et inversement??
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Old 15-01-2009, 18:20   #32
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En fait margo tiens a souligner que certains defauts peuvent etre corriges assez rapidement si lo on etudie de pret les lignees et en essayant d'y trouver des solutions .... que les guerre entre eleveurs doivent cesser .. car meme ceux critiquant a l epoque certains chiens ils s'est avere que c'est dernier ont transmis d excellent genes ... certes certains defaut ne sont pas a negliger ... mais il faut rectifier en ECHANGEANT eT SE CONCERTANT entre nous ... voila en resume succin ... aussi pour finir en positif .. margo trouve notre cheptel evoluant dands une bonne direction en peu de temps et le souligne ....
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Old 15-01-2009, 18:21   #33
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desole suis creve et c'est blinde de fautes .... pas de relecture ...
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Old 15-01-2009, 18:55   #34
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au moins une chose de positif..;
à nous ( enfin les eleveurs) de corriger le tir de suite et se concerter serieusement pour pouvoir travailler au mieux
commençant à connaitre quelques eleveurs, TOUS, je dis bien TOUS ceux avec qui j'ai discuté ont le même objectif, en ce qui concerne l'évolution du cheptel de chacun
ils sont d'accord sur l'amelioration et l'avenir de leurs portées.
le serieux de ceux ci encourage et rassure le petit amateur que je suis dans ce que seront trés bientot les dignes représentants des CLT que nous auront dans les 2 années à venir.
vivement le mondial que l'on prouver notre serieux et nos ambitions à être dans les meilleurs.
et petit clin d'oeil bien chauvin,
bientôt, ce seront eux qui viendront "mandier" un de nos petits pour ameliorer leurs lignées ( tite pointe d'humour non mechante)

merci à vous
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Old 15-01-2009, 20:04   #35
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Bonsoir,
Merci à Furyos d'avoir une petite traduction car ici nous sommes en France alors essayons de parler FRANCAIS!!Merci car nous nous sommes toujours obligés de s'adapter aux langues des autres pays donc que tout le monde fasse pareil.
Merci et bonne soirée.
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Old 16-01-2009, 01:31   #36
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Quote:

- short coat - judges do not find it out because such dogs look like shedding dogs. But "naked" the whole year - they never get long and rich "winter" coat:


The dog look like this whole year - it never gets winter coat. And only breeders can "fight" with it because you must see the dog whole year to see if the dogs is really shedding (typical that wolfdogs loose all hair 2 times a year) or really have untypical short hair....
Margo, do you know if Short hair is récessive to normal hair ???

Pour ceux qui ne lisent pas l'anglais : "Je demande si le caractère "poil court" est récessif"

Margo étant polonaise, nos langues sont assez éloignées, et il me semble plus que respectueux qu'accepter sa participation en anglais... c'est plus confortable à lire que du mauvais français....
... et un petit coup de "Google outil linguistique" et on obtient la traduction !
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Old 16-01-2009, 10:55   #37
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Pour ceux qui parlent uniquement le Russe:

Для тех, кто не читал Английский: "Я ли" короткие волосы "является рецессивной"

Марго время польский, наши языки очень отдаленных, и мне кажется, более уважительное принимать участие в его Английский ... его более удобным для чтения, чем плохой французский ....
... и небольшой инсульт "Google язык инструментом" и получите перевод!
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Old 16-01-2009, 13:01   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArImInIuM View Post
au moins une chose de positif..;
à nous ( enfin les eleveurs) de corriger le tir de suite et se concerter serieusement pour pouvoir travailler au mieux
commençant à connaitre quelques eleveurs, TOUS, je dis bien TOUS ceux avec qui j'ai discuté ont le même objectif, en ce qui concerne l'évolution du cheptel de chacun
ils sont d'accord sur l'amelioration et l'avenir de leurs portées.
le serieux de ceux ci encourage et rassure le petit amateur que je suis dans ce que seront trés bientot les dignes représentants des CLT que nous auront dans les 2 années à venir.
vivement le mondial que l'on prouver notre serieux et nos ambitions à être dans les meilleurs.
et petit clin d'oeil bien chauvin,
bientôt, ce seront eux qui viendront "mandier" un de nos petits pour ameliorer leurs lignées ( tite pointe d'humour non mechante)

merci à vous
Ouais tas raison, tu sais au championnat dEurope a Budapest Koomak a fait la reserve et a battu pas mal detrangers ! en plus cetait au pays du berceau de la race, avec un juge specialiste du CLT, jetais fiere et comme tu dis faut etre unpeu chauvin
Si je me souviens au championnat du monde 08 cest une francaise qui a gagne
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Old 16-01-2009, 13:34   #39
Sherdor
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для тех, кто не читал английский:

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Old 17-01-2009, 23:30   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sherdor View Post
для тех, кто не читал английский:

ca ne sert a rien il existe des traducteur en ligne et en plus margo s'efforce a ecrire en dans un bon anglais c'est pas le cas de certaine personne qui ecrivent dans un mauvais français

ce qui est intéressant est de savoir le % de chien potencielement atteind

la cosanginité est une chose qui peut faire ressortir des defaut de ce type

le poil est bien evidement un soucis ca cela alter la possibilitées au chien a resuster au temperature basse mais je pense qu' un chien avec un soucis de poil tout depend l'eta genaral du chien car si le chien a les bonne proportion cela ne doit pas etre trop penalisant
et que a mon avis il vaut mieux avoir un chien avec un soucis de poil qu'un chien avec une croupe fuyante . . .
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une vrai passion pour une belle race !
signé fabrice
tout simplement passionné....... et c'est deja ça
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