DM Testresults

[Grin]

Ok, I understand.
Sorry for butting in.

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by Gia

I think it's not right topic fot this discussion.

Yes I agree 100%

And as nor Wolfdog.org or any Cs Club has DM or Dwarf as Demand for breeding (as I know) I think one can not demand info about it online

And if one really wants to know and the dogs are not on the test list, way not ask in PM ???

I see DM and Dwarf questions as off topic on a topic like this

If this is happening every time a breeder wants to tell something, I think very soon No breeder will want to tell anything online at all

Therefor I would kindly like to ask the Moderators if it is possible to put this all in a new topic (DM questions to breeders) And put ALLL the future DM questions to ALLL breeders there ???

Very best regards / Mikael

PS, I´m for testing, but against witch hunting, DS.

Witch hunt will not help or save are breed !

[Gia]

Mikael, you're right

So... Sister!!!!!!!!! Congratulations!!!!!!!! Your puppies are so cute!!!!!!!!!!!!
Kisses to all family from K-lee Vornja z Peronówki

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by Gia

Yes, K-lee is carrier, but I think it's not right topic fot this discussion.

Of course it is not the right topic... All results are and will be published on Mijke's list and in the topic about DM results on the forum...

Massimo knew about it - but still he decided to post here his boorish question. It is topic of another kennel, of another country. It is VERY strange - but I think again some hidden motives and Massimo's personal fights are the reason for it...

Massimo, why do you ask about DM results Enor person who DO NOT OWN HIM? Maybe it would be great idea to ask about it HIS OWNER?.
Why do you ask about DM results breeders from Spain where no dogs has been tested till now and first they are looking for possibilities to make it? And everybody knows it.
Look - in Italy the tests are done for years. For years there are also dogs known which surfered from DM and they same which are related with your dogs. Why you still didn't tested your dogs? But you ask (or better said: require) from other to have their dogs testes already now...

[Nebulosa]

I sense that some gossips are being spreaded

[massimo]

Originally Posted by z Peronówki

Massimo knew about it - but still he decided to post here his boorish question. It is topic of another kennel, of another country. It is VERY strange - but I think again some hidden motives and Massimo's personal fights are the reason for it...

Massimo, why do you ask about DM results Enor person who DO NOT OWN HIM? Maybe it would be great idea to ask about it HIS OWNER?.
Why do you ask about DM results breeders from Spain where no dogs has been tested till now and first they are looking for possibilities to make it? And everybody knows it.
Look - in Italy the tests are done for years. For years there are also dogs known which surfered from DM and they same which are related with your dogs. Why you still didn't tested your dogs? But you ask (or better said: require) from other to have their dogs testes already now...

Look, if my questions are boorish..then I will stop asking questions, so you will all be happy.
I don't think you need my "support" or "contribution" anyway, there are enough little helpers...

Originally Posted by z Peronówki

Massimo knew about it - but still he decided to post here his boorish question. It is topic of another kennel, of another country. It is VERY strange - but I think again some hidden motives and Massimo's personal fights are the reason for it...

Personal fights??

Since when I have personal fights with anybody on this thread? just because I asked a simple question...I got a whole tidewave of replies...so I am obliged to back off by the "stream".

Originally Posted by z Peronówki

Massimo, why do you ask about DM results Enor person who DO NOT OWN HIM? Maybe it would be great idea to ask about it HIS OWNER?.
Why do you ask about DM results breeders from Spain where no dogs has been tested till now and first they are looking for possibilities to make it? And everybody knows it.

Funny.
If I am a breeder I have a female and I use a male.
I choose the male according to some criteria.
One of these is his health.
If I use him, I get info on his health, like DMA.
So , if Tuky used Enor, he could have asked about DMA results and so could know it, just like Ewa knew about the male she used.
But...these rules apply ONLY when we care right?
If we DONT CARE, then this applies to all the others.
Margo, do YOU care?
Does WOFLDOG.ORG site CARE?
I don't fight anybody.
I just ask you to CARE more about DMA and to test your dogs and to breed responsibly.
Are you (all breeders) doing this?
I honestly don't think so...More than ME witchhunting others it seems that there is a big Tabu on this argument, so the best I can do is to be silent...
All I ask for is health info on dogs...on super dogs, on best litters...but this seems not to be a nice argument.
How many litters published on this site have DMA results?
OPS, sorry, i did it again...i am just a booring italian...cannot keep my mouth shut.

[massimo]

Originally Posted by z Peronówki

Look - in Italy the tests are done for years. For years there are also dogs known which surfered from DM and they same which are related with your dogs. Why you still didn't tested your dogs? But you ask (or better said: require) from other to have their dogs testes already now...

This is an example of the new wave of how to behave on wolfdog, wofldogetichette.
Same question from Daiva, same reply from me.

DNA test on Degenerative Mielopathy is relatively "new".
We can send blood tests to Germany from Italy or from Spain or from Poland in the same way.
The dogs I own who can reproduce have been tested.
I REPEAT: MY DOGS HAVE BEEN TESTED.
My 8 and 7 year old dogs, one without offspring and one with only one litter, will not reproduce anymore so I have no reason to BREED RESPONSIBLY with them.
But i guess my replies are useless right? somebody else will ask me again, when I kindly ask them if their dogs are tested, if I tested my dogs instead...

[massimo]

Originally Posted by Rona

But it was YOU who mentioned K-lee's DM results.

Rona, I very often appreciate your comments and I am surprised you do not get my intentions.
Kay is sister of K-Lee.
If K-Lee is carrier, so ALSO can be Kay.
Is this correct till now?
If you had a female who was carrier... If you could chose, what male would you use?
I can tell you what I would do.
I would use a carrier with a carrier only if he was SUPER SPECIAL to my eyes and only if it was the dog of my dreams.
BUT, I would test all puppies before selling them and I would inform the owners of the results.
I know, i am a dreamer, but here i am pictured as a witchhunter...(i think it's just because of being against the mainstream, but it's just my idea i guess)

So...to my eyes, breeding responsibly means choosing the right male for a female who is carrier.
But completely DISREGARDING the DMA means, to my eyes again, not being completely responsible.
Can somebody tell me what is wrong with this argumentation and where is the witchhunt?
I am sure Tuky is a great person, and maybe if he had more information he might have been more careful or chosen differently.
But often information doesn't flow the right direction I think.

Anyway, maybe to be better appreciated on this forum I should start writing nice things, like wow great litter and stuff like than...popularity means compromise...

[wolfin]

Originally Posted by massimo

Anyway, maybe to be better appreciated on this forum I should start writing nice things, like wow great litter and stuff like than...popularity means compromise...

why not - I see this very good are maked in italian forum bellisiiimooo cucioooooli
can this try and in this forum too

[massimo]

I will no longer reply to any further provocation from who prefers "counter-attacking" instead of replying.

This is a very interesting article posted on the Czech Club Site:
http://www.cswolfdog.cz/index.php?op...ravi&Itemid=44

And this is a bad google translation of it.
http://translate.google.it/translate...d%3D44&act=url

And as nor Wolfdog.org or any Cs Club has DM or Dwarf as Demand for breeding (as I know) I think one can not demand info about it online

I hope and wish and wait for this to be different soon...

Information against Ignorance, health prevention against carelessness....

[z Peronówki]

Massimo but why you are affraid of publishing the results? Oliver was used and it could safe a lot of work. His result is also very important for his puppy owners. And Lunatica - it doesn't matter that she is not for breeding - her result would be for sure interesting for Edith and other dogs from this line.
I know "carriers" or "affected" dogs can be reason for (similar) insinuations. But only if everybody will start to publish the results the breeders fights will stop...

Originally Posted by Massimo

How many litters published on this site have DMA results?

It is exactly the witch hunt... The idea of DM tests is new - it will take YEARS before we will have here all litters tested for DM. The same was with HD. ED is still "introduced". Why do you think it will be different with DM - that it will be done within few months?

Another fact which makes me laught: the "discovery" of some people that such problem exists... And the big panic right now....

1) people always forget that "affected" dogs not always get ill - by many the illness will never "show up"
2) people still forget that "free" dogs ALSO can get problems with movement because there are more illnesses similar to DM
3) people forget that there is not a problem with DM but problem with lines where DM appears by pretty young dogs - it means lines which have not only DM genes but also genes "activating" this ilness

Sorry but for many years I was showing dogs which have problems to move properly... Which had "bad movement" already at the age of 4-5 years... Sure they were not moving like Forrest on the movie but some symptoms were visible... But no - nobody is interested in looking if the dog is healthy. The most important was that the dog has nice head and some show titles...
Now they start panic - Huston, we have a problem.

On the other side - I saw some "affected" dogs which are 12, 13, 14 years old now. For this age they still move perfect - the DM you can see only by small "details". And I think it is the "typical" type of development of DM by Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs.... Even if the illness appears - it appears in the high age. Exactly because of it DM was "hidden" for so long time - everybody though that the "specific" movement of some old dogs is just the consequence of their age....

[Rona]

Originally Posted by massimo

If you had a female who was carrier... If you could chose, what male would you use?

Of course the DM n/n and this is not the issue.

Originally Posted by massimo

Can somebody tell me what is wrong with this argumentation and where is the witchhunt?

I wouldn't call it witchhunt....Sorry, but I don't think it's fair to publish the results of somebody else's dog, even if it's not a secret. Knowing your usually elegant manners and class I just thought it was a kind of misunderstanding.

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by z Peronówki

It is exactly the witch hunt... The idea of DM tests is new - it will take YEARS before we will have here all litters tested for DM. The same was with HD. ED is still "introduced". Why do you think it will be different with DM - that it will be done within few months?

Another fact which makes me laught: the "discovery" of some people that such problem exists... And the big panic right now....

1) people always forget that "affected" dogs not always get ill - by many the illness will never "show up"
2) people still forget that "free" dogs ALSO can get problems with movement because there are more illnesses similar to DM
3) people forget that there is not a problem with DM but problem with lines where DM appears by pretty young dogs - it means lines which have not only DM genes but also genes "activating" this ilness

Sorry but for many years I was showing dogs which have problems to move properly... Which had "bad movement" already at the age of 4-5 years... Sure they were not moving like Forrest on the movie but some symptoms were visible... But no - nobody is interested in looking if the dog is healthy. The most important was that the dog has nice head and some show titles...
Now they start panic - Huston, we have a problem.

On the other side - I saw some "affected" dogs which are 12, 13, 14 years old now. For this age they still move perfect - the DM you can see only by small "details". And I think it is the "typical" type of development of DM by Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs.... Even if the illness appears - it appears in the high age. Exactly because of it DM was "hidden" for so long time - everybody though that the "specific" movement of some old dogs is just the consequence of their age....

This is exactly what I try to tell the Swedish Saarloos/Vlcak Club, but they want to demand DM testing and take all Carriers of breeding, YES ALL CARRIER OFF BREEDING !!!

I´m in the club board and I support a recommendation for DM and Dwarf test, but think a demand is not scientifically supported yet, as for to have a demand by the Swedish Kennel Club it must bee a "Breed Problem" like we have whit HD. And as I know DM is not that common.

We only have very few CsV in Sweden, (10) but only 5 registered
take away 50% DM carriers and we have maximum 3 dogs to breed on, take away lines whit HD, we have maximum 2, take away the ones that do not have ED test and we have 1, take away the ones that do not have a Bonitation code and we have 0... And how about bad character, bad movements, other diseases and shy dogs... Than we are about -15 CsV in Sweden for breeding Lets get a bus and go down Europe...

I´m the only one that did the DM test on my dogs, Hronec Taabernakkelin was a "Carrier", the response was PANNNNNNNNNNNNNIC !!!! DON’T BREED HE IS SICK , but I have a free female and understand we can not take 50% of the CsV OFF BREEDING...

Now some of them think I´m a bad breeder ... ...

But as I know, I’m the only one in Sweden that did HD, ED, DM, MH = Mental dog description. And as far as I know non did any of the test above yet...
Except one that did the MH.

Witch hunt has started before breeding has

Very best regards / Mikael

[Nebulosa]

Mikael, you touched exactly in the main problem of lay people and the hystery caused by them, which only hinder a possible future selection for ends with this problem without affect the genetic pool of the breed or the quality of the animals, thing wich requires a lot of patience, time, study and understanding.
with the reaction of some people we can arrive at the conclusion that not all people are prepared to receive real informations about health issues also as they are not prepared to work with it. To worst, we have also several people spreading gossips as using the results as excuse to accuse a breeder with the pseudo-talk of ethical and responsibility.

I think people choose to make selective reading, there is write that the preference is avoid mates between both affected dogs or both carriers, and IF POSSIBLE only mate affecteds and carriers dogs with free animals, obviously. that it's the only way to diminish the number of affected animals and carriers, and in a future clean the breed of this gene, simple genetic, but instead of it, lay people understand it in extreme way and spread that every affected or carrier dog should have his usage avoided, and then, the hystery starts.
They also choose to dont read the part that say DM is a disease under research, which people still does not know for sure what causes, how to cure, how many types of DM exists, which is the differences between these types and how to find those different types in an early exam, like the genetic SOD1 test.
They know that SOD1 gene points a risky factor to DM and they are studying it.

They does not ask themselves:
What is possible to do in our breed?
Which selection should we make?
Which kind of DM is showing in our dogs?
If more than one, in which lines?
Which one we should give preference in selection?

It's kind different a dog which get paralitic because of DM with 6 years old of one which is still walking with 13, but showing some silly symptoms.

But unfortunately, seems that we will never be able to reply most of these questions thanks to the hystery.

[nanouk]

1) people always forget that "affected" dogs not always get ill - by many the illness will never "show up"

I have been told this many times, also with regards to Saarloos.. With the many dogs that will never show the illness, can you name me 1, just one 'affected' TWD age 10 or older that doesn't show signs?
I hope i assume correctly that with twd like with the SWD 10 is not "old" yet.

[massimo]

Originally Posted by nanouk

I have been told this many times, also with regards to Saarloos.. With the many dogs that will never show the illness, can you name me 1, just one 'affected' TWD age 10 or older that doesn't show signs?
I hope i assume correctly that with twd like with the SWD 10 is not "old" yet.

I may be wrong but I think by "affected" is meant "positive" and not "Ill"
A dog may be genetically "positive" DM/DM but not physically "Ill".
Of course if a dog is "Ill" then he will surely show signs.
But this is not true if a dog is "positive".
There are Positive dogs who are over 10 and not Ill.

[nanouk]

Originally Posted by massimo

There are Positive dogs who are over 10 and not Ill.

than could you please name me one of those..cynical as i am, i only hear of those being put to sleep, never the names of those that run care free!

[Rona]

I've been thinking about the DM tests and Dwarf tests, etc. and have some reflections. Mainly some of our "moralists" question the ethical condition of breeders who have yet not tested their dogs.... They are right: responsible breeders and rep owners should test their dogs against all possible diseases and health hazards. But there is one catch - money!
Each of these tests isn't extremely expensive (maybe excpet Dwarf), but adding up costs of several tests and multiplying it by the number of owned dogs makes quite a lump sum.

Paradoxically, the so-called "ethical breeders", who invest in good dog food, suitable conditions, medical care, dog shows, training, socialising etc. of their dogs are in a worse position, because making all the tests would mean less means for other 'dog expenses', not to mention family needs, kids education, holidays etc. It's obvious that hardly anyone has unlimited financial resources...
One of the solution could be to include the test costs in puppy prices. However, in the light of many litters available and the fact that good breeders do not sell CSV to anybody but try to select suitable homes (not necessarily the richest ones - see the discussion about puppy prices!), makes this solution not very practical.

So we have on the one hand puppy mills where the owners could probably afford doing the tests, but don't care very much about their dogs/pups health, and on the other - devoted breeders who sometimes would want to test their dogs, but jus can't afford and plan to do the tests gradually...

One may say: if somebody does not have money for testing his/her dogs he shouldn't breed at all. True. But if people stop breeding, many of them would have even less means for testing the dogs. It looks like a vicious circle. The tests have been available for very short time; as Mijke wrote in another thread - any change needs time, education, discussion of side effects, etc.

So maybe instead of blaming people for not testing their dogs, spreading rumours about the results, publishing results of other people's dogs, asking questions: "have you tested your dogs yet?", making owners/breeders feel guilty, etc. etc. we could just assume common goodwill. Lets take that caring, ethical breeders have tested their dogs, intend to test their dogs and will test their dogs at the earliest time feasible for them. I'm sure people will not object to publishing the test results if nobody will use them against them, their animals and their kennels.

By attacking others (even indirectly and with best intentions) nothing is achieved! People will only close themselves and hide the results, which is just the opposite from what is best for the breed.

And one more argument - there is a proverb "who lives in a glass house shouldn't throw stones". CSV teach humility and while looking at our dwarf free, DM clean, HD A and ED 0 dog we should remember we still don't know what else he might carry inside him

[Tuky]

Happy holidays to all! ... well I'm a couple of days of Wolfdog and I find this discussion focused on my litter

I knew it would not give so much to talk about a birth announcement litter's Kay

Only the English forum announced (other than Spanish) to where some of the friends knew of their development and because I was (and am) very excited about it

I will not round, Kay has not made the DM test, why? that did not know how to do them from Spain, and when I found out I had to do and mating.

DM test Kay?... of course, When? Kay is recovered when the puppies, before other tests are more important to me, but you can rest assured that it will be before her next litter. Honestly I did not worry because the "half-brothers " Kay, were free

And by Enor, then, what to say without a flutter? ... hehe

if you worry for the puppies, 3 of them have houses, they know how to act and rely on my decision. Still need a female without knowing where it will be their new home, be well informed as it enters Wolfdog advise to follow the news of breed. (a female will stay in the kennel )

anything else? ... I will not get into fights, but thought it necessary to respond.

There is a saying that says a fight is necessary for 2 people, (I do not want to fight)

[Vaiva]

Originally Posted by Rona

I've been thinking about the DM tests and Dwarf tests, etc. and have some reflections.

As always - I can only agree with you.
Yes, these "once in life" tests are important, but when you count the costs of blood and urine tests to check if a female is really strong and healthy before she is even on heat, all the estrogen/progesteron tests (we know wolfdogs may need more than "normal" breeds ), traveling to male and other costs, one pays for every litter every time a female is mated... The puppies are golden So it is normal that people might want to save some money for additional tests, like DM, Dwarf or, still nobody speaks about how important they are (or aren't???), PRA and other eye tests