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Old 12-11-2010, 19:59   #1
hanninadina
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Default About wolfhybrids

Here a picture from some trained wolves who know 20(!) commands and are feed from hand! The wolfscience center in austria proves that it is possible.
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Old 12-11-2010, 20:05   #2
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Here a picture from some trained wolves who know 20(!) commands and are feed from hand! The wolfscience center in austria proves that it is possible.
It is also possible to train Tigers and whales, but I don't recommend it to 99% of people... and certainly I don't think those are safe domesticated animal to live in regular homes and cities with children and other animals.
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Old 12-11-2010, 22:26   #3
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Please read this first scientific research about wolfdogs, which a russian Prof. Dr. called Iljin made in the 1920ies. He published it in 1941. The funny thing is that he mentioned a lot of german researchers of wolfdogs in that paper! But it is more genetic and morphologic and almost no behaviour like.

http://www.wolfdogforum.com/forum/vi....php?f=11&t=89

By the way, did you knew that in russian in that time already black wolves were seen? And not only black, but there was an area were blue wolves were! I only know american blue wolfdogs.
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Old 13-11-2010, 00:34   #4
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And breeding with wolves of course you do not have to take wild ones, but in captivity raised ones, who have proven that they are able to work.
Sorry, but if this guy is really serious about that, he proves himself not a very competent person (at least on this topic).
But it may probably only be credited to his lack of experience (at least on this topic).

Hi Yukidomari,
I've been to that institute in Austria.
Marvelous work!
But it's just a matter of training and pure positive reinforcement.
They are no pets or dogs in a wolf's shape at all.
The main difference between dogs (and a CSV is a dog) and wolves is, that you never can force a wolf doing things he or she doesn't want to do.
No matter how tamed the animal is.
And no matter were the animal was born and raised.
Either in the wild or in a sanctuary.

Kind regards,
Michael
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Old 13-11-2010, 09:55   #5
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That is the difference between Michael and me, I understand these animals and he doesn´t. That is why I am able to work with them and he is not. There are a lot of people who have a lot of knowledge about dogs and the pure breed wolfdogs, but are not able to notice the difference in handling high content and pures. But that´s life, not everybody can all. And I am not a dog trainer and I never want to be.

I never said that a wolf or high content is a pet like a Labrador. I would never say that a Ferrari is a family car either.

In this thread was the question, is it possible to cross in again a wolf for new fresh blood in the breed csw.

The wolves from the wolfscience center are american ones. They are mostly easier to train than europaen ones. But of course you find under the europaen ones wolves who are able to be trained like this.

The way how they train their wolves is a way how many dog trainers train their dogs! I am really wondering why a person like Michael, who claims to be a dog trainer too, seems not to know it. So it is a way how to train! That is his problem, he mostly wants to "force" a dog to a thing. Therefore he is well known not only in csw world but in the meantime also in wildanimal park world, because they had the experience how he does act with his dogs.

There are a lot of dog trainers who train in that way like he does. Ok, it is a way. But it is the wrong way if you want to be successful with wolves and high contents. In the US and Canada are a lot of dog trainers who train wolves and high content wolfdogs without any problem. But of course they are not german shepards!

But listining to 20 commands is much more than the average dog is able to. 5 commands is normal.

I can only say, talk to your animal. If you don´t talk, it will not understand. If it will not understand you, it will never do what you want. And one thing is for sure, they are much more intelligent like a dog and therefore they learn faster - if they want and if you have the bond to them.

Beside herding dogs are almost untrainable, there are some pure dog breeds who I would say are more difficult to train than a wolf or a hc. Remember, I do not talk about a shy wild wolf! To the difference I gave you the link to my website. I know it is very hard to understand. Legions of biologist did researches wolves and did not find out the difference, because for them one wolf was like the other. They seem not to realize that wolves have different characters like dogs and we as human beings do have of course too.

Have a nice weekend.

Christian

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Old 13-11-2010, 10:25   #6
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I would rather say the main difference between you two is that Michael is able to see the animal in itself instead of projecting his own wishes and emotions on it.

Nobody denied it is possible to cross a wolf into the breed, the question was if it makes sense. And if you are not able to see the difference between an animal no matter if Northamerican Wolf, European Wolf, Orca or Tiger showing learned behaviour in close sight of a treat in it´s normal surrounding, and a working dog that will work concentrated for several hours in no matter what surrounding every day just for the benefit of working for his owner and will do that amidst traffic, people, massive noise over and over again, there is no use into discussing this matter with you at all. Cause what you obviously don´t seem to be able to understand is that though the way an animal (inclusive our own dogs by the way) learns a command per se is the same it has nothing to do with his ability to show this command obediently under all circumstances. And if you think that any real working dog in this world has never in his live a moment in which it will not have to be asked to do his work instead of something it would rather like to do instead you have never seen a working dog.
And by the way the founder of the German Shepherd did understand this fact very, very well, as well as the scientists in Austria.

Ina
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Old 13-11-2010, 10:46   #7
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Is it so, that working dogs work for the benefit of their owners?

As far I know from professionals, like the police in my country - the chief of them is my friend and expert in front of courts - they teach their dogs with toys for confirmation, well done. A few with food. But the same way they do teach the wolves in wolfscience center. Only in a positive way. Of course there are dogs who do it without any positive treatman only for their owner.

It must be said that the wolfcenter does not look especially for characters of wolves. They only wanted to have american ones. And because they were and are new to the americans they listened to Monty Sloan. The next wolves will be hopefully some "dog" wolves. But that shows and confirms again although they did not choose if their wolves have the abilites to work, they were able to teach them.

I do not know if you understand, but as a dog breeder you look for a breeding male who has the abilites and character to make the puppys better and if your female has a fault, the male should make it better and not worser. So you look for the "special" male. And that must be done of course with the wolves too, when you want to work with them. And it is possible because their are lines in the US who proved to be able to.

It was not the question, if the wolf will be able to work in the city center with loud noise. But even this the founder of the german shepard wrote, that the wild court adult wolves he knew were able to live in the city with all his noise, trains and people after socialization. I will send you the link, now where we have the english version here too. I only knew it from the german version.

So Ina, it is much more possible than most people thought. But that is old stuff from almost 100 years ago and seems to be forgotten.

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Old 13-11-2010, 11:16   #8
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/ Mikael
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Old 13-11-2010, 11:17   #9
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/ Mikael
Thank you for reminding me not to feed the troll, I apologize.

Ina

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Old 13-11-2010, 13:38   #10
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Hi hi, right smiles Mikael
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Old 14-11-2010, 11:13   #11
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http://books.google.com/books?prints...page&q&f=false

On page 11 in the middle, it starts with:

"It is well known ...."

The founder from the gsd von Stephanitz confirms, yeah that it is well known that it is not a problem to get used "wilddogs" for example wolves to live in the city. By the way the question mark, which is in this american version is in the german version not existing!

That it is objectively possible, to live with wolves, von Stephanitz confirms more than 100 years back. That it from a certain point does not make sense in a pure breed used for specific work is obviously. He claims in his book too, that he did it and found the right "mixture" and that there is no need for other breeders to cross in more wolfblood.

For me is the point that you people understand that a wolfdog F 1 - F 4 is nothing else than a wolfdog and not a unpredicable beast. If you can not read a csw F 5, F 6, you will not be able to read a F 1. But it is nothing special for the engaged dog owner. You all would help the breed csw if you do not talk about things which are simply not true. Because it is always a reason of genes how a wolfdog behaves and not which generation after a wolf he is. And all people I know who owns F 1- F 4 have less problems with these dogs than most people have and had with their csw, especially when they were young. As I wrote already, no wonder having these hyperactiv "high quality" working german shepards in them. Every breeder in the US and Canada knows if you breed a wolf to a german shepard, people will get problems - like most people with csw had and have. So you can look to France, like I already wrote too, there are a lot of csw in shelters. People were badly informed from money making breeders and getting huge problems. And the bad thing is that these animals are well known being aggressiv. It will get over to all csw - hopefully only in france - that it is an agressiv breed.

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Old 14-11-2010, 19:18   #12
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I will remind you all while comparing the Vlcak with the typical american "wolfhybrid" some important distinguishing points:
1. Most wolfhybrids are misrepresented with their wolfblood percentage.
2. Most real high-percentage wolfhybrids are not kept as ordinary dogs, but have special made enclosures and are not let free running in the park! They need special care and during such circumstances a lot of them behave well. This cases cannot be compared to the ordinary CWD
3. Lots of the male hybrids are castrated to prevent difficult bahavior.
4. All high-percentage wolfhybrids are pulled from their mothers as early as 10 days old and hand-raised and bottled fed by humans to prevent shyness. Not like a dog who is nursed by their mothers. This makes a huge difference.
5. Wolfhybrid enthusiasts tell you about the good examples, but forget to tell you about all the animals put to death because they couldnt be handled or became aggressive.
6. High percentage wolfhybrids have much stronger prey-drive than dogs that can not be suppressed by training. One or two examples of the opposite doesnt change this fact.

I want to emphasize this facts since comparing a well bahaved wolf who is cared for with the special requirements needed to keep such an animal with a Vlcak that is supposed to behave and act like a dog is a little naive!
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Old 14-11-2010, 19:27   #13
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You don´t need to remind us all - just one of us ....

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Old 14-11-2010, 19:43   #14
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Fenris, do you are experienced? Do you have contact to owners, breeders, trainers, scientists? Please tell me your name and where you have your knowledge from?

There are in comparison to the number of wolfdogs much more dogs in shelters! Scientific proved that dogs bite the double than wolfdogs!

What you are writing here, is simply gossip! That what all people write who are not in the "business". You better should get contact with the many people who rescue adult wolfdogs from low ove mid to high content without any problems. Watch my website. I got Nuno with 21 month. I did not bottle feed him. He lived for 17 month only in enclosures, the last 12 month, before I got him without any people contact. They threw the food over the fence. He was not leash trained, nothing. And now? Now he is leash trained, he loves every dog, woman and man. Visitors can come with their dogs without any problem in my garden. meeting dogs during walking no problem. And he is not the only one where it is so, I know a lot of these animals who all are the same.

You can look in face book and you tube over 20 clips proving and confirming what I wrote here. Last week a finish film team made a documentary about wolves and they shot a lot of walking leash scence with my animals with a finish politician in the greens. My dogs did not know these people. They were much nicer than every average dog. Sorry, but I can not hear these old phrases from people who know nothing, except repeating things from people who are spreading gossip.

Better you take your time and watch you tube and facebook than you maybe will understand what I am talking about. These old stories are boring!
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Old 14-11-2010, 20:04   #15
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Apart from your problems with statistics, do you really want Daniel from Lobo Park to state here about Nuno, how you got him and how he lived before. No problem, he will love to tell everybody.
So don´t think twice but better three times about this!
Sorry the rest of you but this is incredulous.
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Old 14-11-2010, 20:17   #16
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I prefer real life and real experiences to "facebook and youtube" . If virtual reality is your recommendation for learning about this matter it explains everything about your position. And I do have real first hand experience on this matters. That is the reason why I make this statements. The danger lies in the fact that some people might beleive you and buy a highpercentage wolgdog and keep it with their small children and neighbouring cats. Often everything runs smooth with a young wolf, but then surpassing 3 years old things start to change. I would like others on this forum with real experiences (not facebook and youtube) to tell the truth about this matter.
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Old 14-11-2010, 20:23   #17
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I prefer real life and real experiences to "facebook and youtube" . If virtual reality is your recommendation for learning about this matter it explains everything about your position. And I do have real first hand experience on this matters. That is the reason why I make this statements. The danger lies in the fact that some people might beleive you and buy a highpercentage wolgdog and keep it with their small children and neighbouring cats. Often everything runs smooth with a young wolf, but then surpassing 3 years old things start to change. I would like others on this forum with real experiences (not facebook and youtube) to tell the truth about this matter.
Well Michael und me agree 100%, Daniel from Lobo park will do so, Tanja Askani caring for the wolves in Wildpark Lüneburger Heide will, Erik Zimen did, need some more, no problem?

Ina
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Old 14-11-2010, 20:26   #18
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Thanks for the support. Btw I didnt know about Nuno and Lobo Park, but here is what is written on Lobo Parks homepage about the wolves in Lobo Park where this Nuna is supposed to come from:

"Almost all wolves that you observe in the Lobo Park were raised with the bottle by the owners. This is necessary, in order to take to the wolf’s instinctive shyness of humans and ensure the possibility for stress-free observation by visitors. Since the wolves are accustomed to humans, they are not disturbed visitors and offer outstanding study possibilities of their social behaviour."
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Old 14-11-2010, 20:41   #19
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hahahaha, Fenris, come on, tell me your name and your experience. More gossip you spread. I invited you to watch my website, my blog, I invite you to visit me. That is real life! It seems, you never saw real wolfdogs. Sorry, my animals are real life, lol!

Daniel, who? Eichhorns, everytime you have no arguments, you start escaping from the case, we are talking about. Daniel did already wrote in german forum. He went to the police. And what happened? All were laughing about him and it was confirmed that he is a liar. As always, you have real bad information! You better should live in real life.

I have a world wide net about wolfdogs and to the best researchers. Tanja Askani? Is that the woman who got a male csw from you, Eichhorns, and gave him back because she had problems? That woman is not able to talk or read english, so do you really want to tell me, that she knows about the real life in wolf and wolfdog world? Writing this here, Eichhorns, shows me, that you still know nothing. It would be so easy to read my literature list on my website, that you can learn from. It is the biggest list in the world about wolfdogs!

I feel always sad for you, because you live in the past and are not able to develop.
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Old 14-11-2010, 20:46   #20
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Fenris, it is here a unwritten law, that everybody, who writes here, has to tell his name! I just saw in "about me", that there is written nothing. Oh sorry, there is written country NO = I guess it means Norway. And what do we know from Norway? Wolfdogs are strictly forbidden! Even the csw. Only Saarloos Wolfdogs are allowed.

So I understand more, that you know nothing. Why people like you are discussing here about thinks they do know nothing about? You can have an opinion of course, but please don´t tell me that you have any experience.

But I always like to teach people like you. So please tell me where you live in Norway. I was this year a few times over there. And I can suggest you to book a flight with ryan air to Bremen! I will pick you up so that you can get to know real wolfdogs! And than we can talk again. In germany we say: "Give some butter to the fishes." I really would like you to have you here. I mean it honest. The best ambassadors are my animals!

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