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Old 14-11-2010, 20:55   #21
michaelundinaeichhorn
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I have a world wide net about wolfdogs and to the best researchers. Tanja Askani? Is that the woman who got a male csw from you, Eichhorns, and gave him back because she had problems? That woman is not able to talk or read english, so do you really want to tell me, that she knows about the real life in wolf and wolfdog world? Writing this here, Eichhorns, shows me, that you still know nothing. It would be so easy to read my literature list on my website, that you can learn from. It is the biggest list in the world about wolfdogs!

I feel always sad for you, because you live in the past and are not able to develop.
Tanja never got a wolfdog from us and so never had to give one back, welcome to reality.
She raised several wolves for which she still takes care and surely doesn´t deserve to be called "that woman" being much more competent than you ever will be.http://www.tanja-askani.de/
I did just send Daniel a link to your statements he can state here on his own if he thinks it worth it, after nobody inclusive the police did laugh about him I doubt he cares enough about you.
Get a grip on yourself this have been more than enough lies now.

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Old 14-11-2010, 21:10   #22
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Yeah, come on, let us hear some more gossip. I guess he will like when I upload some picture of his wolves in horrible conditions because of misstreating! These pictures are already with the police.

I feel very sad for you Eichhorns, because you are not able to discuss in an objective way.
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Old 14-11-2010, 21:22   #23
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/ Mikael
I can only agree with this
Could anyone be more exact about the story with the police? It is getting more and more interesting. We all read and feel kind of stupid without knowing what are yoy exactly talking about
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Old 14-11-2010, 21:35   #24
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You better ask Eichhorns, why they start with a topic which is not in here. Because they do not understand, that my american wolfdog is so nice to everybody and everyone can see in facebook about 20 clips from him being with other dogs, people, even children. It does not confirm that gossip they and fenris are spreading. Over years I am following this gossip. First I only had two csw than I had one and now two american wolfdogs and know 30 personally. And none of these animals confirms what Eichhorns and Fenris are writing here. I put in links from the founder of german shepard who confirms too, that there were around 100 years ago in germany people who did live with wolves.

But that is not the point, I can only repeat, they are not beasts and they are not dangerous. They are more calm than dogs and some are timid, but some are very open and friendly. And I do know 8 year old animals. I am not talking about young ones. I am talking about true mature none neutered adult wolfdogs. Of course they are not for everyone - like herding dogs, some gsd, some Rottweiler....; like a Ferrari is no family car. It is very simple.

And so I only say, better all are working together and cross offcially new wolfblood in the csw, when people think that there will be healthy problems. If not, there is no need. I do not care. But I can not understand when people are crying for bad planned litters and lack of genetic variablity. So than do something. Of course there are already bred in wolves. But in other recognized breeds there are bred in dogs who are not the ones who are written in pedigree. This fci world is odd...
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Old 14-11-2010, 21:53   #25
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I worked with wolves for 2 years in college - mostly with pups, but also got to see the experienced handlers with the adults in an educational park. They are not dogs. I have had many experiences with "American" wolfdogs. They are more difficult than CSVs - not always aggressive, but some are, and as stated above, even if not aggressive, most high contents have high prey drive - not unlike many dog breeds, but in combination with the impossibility to train like a dog, it's where danger comes in for unfamiliar people, especially those who don't have good judgement (like small kids). So okay, they are their own entity, I feel neutral to this in some ways. A big problem for me living in the US is that many wolfdogs are bred illegally - frequently in very cramped confinement, so the authorities don't detect them. They are bred only for profit and as hobby/pets, since they have no kind of working purpose. There is no standard to aim for with breeding. I seriously doubt there are any high contents that have earned obedience or working titles. I currently have a Czech bred GSD staying with me...he is hard, dominant, drivey, and with very high prey drive - difficult to handle if you aren't experienced. He is much more similar to my CSV than the grey wolves were. But he is fine as a pet with the right family - he understands people, even with no food to work for. He can live indoors, and understands things such as voice inflection. Here are some experiences of people who spend a lot of time with all kinds of American wolfdogs - but a few of the many rescues here. Notice, they say "full/waiting list". Ordinary shelters/rescues are often obliged by law or policy to euthanize wolfdogs, and it's always the case if they bite someone. It's a sad situation here...

http://www.nevercrywolfrescue.com/media.asp
http://www.texasblessings.com/WOLF_DOG_RESCUE.html
http://www.wharwolves.org/adoptionreality.htm
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Old 14-11-2010, 22:17   #26
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In the US you have 78 Millio dogs. 4,5 Mill are in rescue/shelters. You have around 700.000 wolfdogs. But only around 20.000 are in rescue. If here is a mathematic, please give us the percentage. But over the thumb 6 % from dogs are in rescue, but only around 2,7 % wolfdogs are in shelter: the half number.

As I wrote, wolfdogs are not for everyone and of course they are no working breed. But you are wrong when you do think that it is not possible. Do you read wolfdogs magazine? Then you maybe know Ann Dresselhaus. She got 14 titles in akc companion exam and even Schutzhund with wolfdogs. Ann is a friend of mine. She bred Noomis relatives.

But please read here in google translated version from what I wrote about wolfdogs http://translate.google.com/translat...de&sl=de&tl=en

Have a look at the pictures. For example Maya, 8 years, F 1 90%.

And please look at the side from wolf and wolfdog rescue near LA in California http://www.wolfconnection.org/ from my friends Teo and Renee. Watch what they do with their animals.

And of course, it is not enough to have wolves to tell, that someone has knowledge, like Eichhorns wants to make believe. We have in germany 120 zoos and wildparks with wolves. And from these all around 100 have problems with their animals because they do have the wrong packs and the animals fight to each other - til death! Lack of knowledge. And even Tanja Askani lost a grey wolf after fighting. So if someone has a Ferrari in the garage, that does not mean that he is racing driver.

You have to have practical knowledge and of course theoretical.

By the way the same is valid in lobopark. I was there 3 times in 3 years. And everytime I was there, they do only have young wolves... And everybody knows that wolves in captivity get very old. I know 19, 17 years old wolves. So better not to ask to deep in the matter of these wolfpark. It is as always, Eichorns are sitting in a glace house and throwing with stones.

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Old 14-11-2010, 22:52   #27
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I think maybe there are no statistics on the number of wolfdogs that are not given to rescues...as I said before, normal dog/cat shelters accept wolfdogs, but they do not adopt them to new homes. They are euthanized. It's the case over and over in my local shelter. Most owners don't relinquish their pets as wolfdogs, they call them "husky mixes" or "malamute mixes", since they know with 100% certainty what will happen if they tell the truth. But most of the time, the shelters make their own determination. I'm curious how they come to the statistics anyways?

In my time with wolves, none died or anything bad, nor in the past 9 years since I left. The trainers were licensed, and everything was very well maintained in accordance with federal regulations. They educate thousands of people daily about wolves in public demonstrations. They also participate in national initiatives for wolf preservation. The wolves lived better than many people.
http://www.buschgardens.com/Bgw/Expl...ls.aspx?id=426

It's cool about your friend, and I don't necessarily have a fight with American wolfdog owners. But, I try to see the whole reality, and we see a lot of it here - of course to everything there are exceptions - one only has to look at the polar bear video in the other thread to see that.

I am curious how your friend was able to get AKC titles, since it's forbidden to exhibit wolf mixes in any AKC event or test?
Here is the form for dogs which are not registered breeds (mixed breeds) to register for events:
https://www.akc.org/mixedbreeds/listing/index.cfm

P.S - what happens to dogs here is horrible to with regards to the statistics. Many (most?) Americans have no business to own dogs, let alone a wolfdog (including CSV!). Our culture is pathetic about the care of animals compared to many European cultures. Animals are a commodity here. Unfortunately, our kennel clubs make money from this, so they keep very loose regulations - for care, health, or temperament - the regulations are rarely involved, except for in very, very bad cases...
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Old 15-11-2010, 11:37   #28
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There is no statistic how many wolfdogs are in shelters. But there are not so many shelters and they are in contact with each other and I am in contact with some of them. Very easy, if you use internet and are able to talk to people, you get the information. The total number of wolfdogs is written in Dave Mech´s book from 2003, and I got the number from the scientist Prof. Dr. Ray Pierotti and from the biggest breeders. So I made a middle number. And as I wrote in facebook are in the meantime hundreds wof people having wolfdogs and rescue shelters and breeders. And I am in contact with all. It is a far bigger community like the csw. Of course having only about 5.000 csw world wide it is nothing to compare to 700.000 american wolfdogs.

And I am of course in very good contact to the scandinavian wolfdog owners. Most live in Finland.

Ann created her own breed the "Alaskan Noble Companion Dogs". It is very simple. She is trainer too and takes from other people the exam. She is very experienced. But that you can read on my website I put the link here in.

Buschgardens, I know, that are animals from Lorraine. The wolf/wolfdog world is very small. And because of my animals and I am one of a handfull people who imported an animal from the north america, write for the wolfdogs magazine, have a good website, have the contact to the most important wolf researchers like Dave, Bob, Ray and Greg it makes an all in all for me and people do know me. And it does not often happen that Monty Sloan visit private persons. But he did with me, we are friends.

And I am friend too with Mark Rowlands "The Philosopher and the Wolf". So I have experience not only with my own animals, but I get all important information first hand! And so I am wondering that a person like Fenris, who even does not have a csw means to know about the wolfdog world.
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Old 16-11-2010, 03:35   #29
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Of course having only about 5.000 csw world wide it is nothing to compare to 700.000 american wolfdogs.
"CsV that is alive today is about 7500 (2009-01-01)"

And as I know "American Wolfdog" is not a breed but a way of breeding, and it´s therefor very hard (or impossible) to say they are like this or that...

Very best regards / Mikael

PS, I like all Wolfdogs, but not all owners and breeders. DS

And whit that I do not mean you
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Old 16-11-2010, 13:11   #30
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I talked with Margo in may in germany about the overall number and we both thought about around 5.000. Of course it could be some more.
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Old 16-11-2010, 20:12   #31
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I am not against wolfdogs or wolfhybrids, but am alarmed to "blow the whistle" when some gives the impression that highpercentage or even pure wolves are easier to to keep than a regular CWD. Wolves and high %-age wolfdogs can be dangerous in the hand of the lay-man and the ignorant and every experienced wolf behaviorist or wolf scientist or wolfdog breeder will agree. I hope I misunderstand the self-acclaimed specialist, but to prevent other without experience who has the desire for a highpercentage wolfdog or a desire to mix more wolfblood into the CWD I feel an obligation to react to her claims.

Hanninadias close friend who makes special private visit to her, the photographer Monty Sloans has published this about the wolfdog:
"Wolves and high-content wolf-hybrids should never be regarded as pets"
See his whole article here:http://www.wolfpark.org/Images/Educa...Guidelines.pdf
W However , of the animals that I`ve seen or heard of that are good with children, most are low in content or young". See this whole article here: http://www.wolfpark.org/Images/Educa...dsChildren.pdf
I would also recommend Erik Klingenhammer , the mentor wolf behaviorist from WolfPark, article on wolfhybrids: http://www.wolfpark.org/Images/Educa...ionHybrids.pdf

Ann Dresselhouse dogs, the Noble Alaskan Companion Dogs, are accordinig to herself a mix between at least 6 dog breeds. Sighthounds, collies, shepherds, white siberian huskies &.c. This amalgam of dogbreeds is very specially developed for their trainablility although wolflike in appearance. Maybe this explains Hanninadians experience with her dogs.
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Old 16-11-2010, 21:21   #32
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I did not say that wolves and high content are pets. You remember, a Ferrari is not a family car?! But csw are too no pets. Because of the gsd in them they are much more hyperactiv and aggressiv than hc and wolves are! I can experience everyday here with visit from dogpeople with their dogs. With my american ones it is no problem, with the csw it is and it is with all csw! I guess you do not have any experience with csw too living in Norway. And my csw are very friendly - to people, you can see this in the video when you click the pic in the tv studio. I can take them in a bar with loud music and hundreds of people walking over them.

I have no experience with Ann her dogs. Noomi is family, yes. I have experience with a lot of different lines because I go to the meetings and visit the owners. Ann is for over 20 years in business. I talk only about her wolflike dogs. I will get to know them next year, because she will get a pup from me and I one from her.

Monty is only in wolf business. That paper is over 10 years old. He does not know the breeders, only the old ones. Monty had a wolfdog for his own, but a low content. He does send all people who have problems to Nicole Wilde - Living with wolfdogs from A - Z. So do not believe everything you read or see in tv. Than you must believe that the csw in germany are beasts after all what was shown this year!

Again, please come down to germany, I invite you. I would be very happy, if you would meet my animals and make your own picture! You are welcome.

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Old 16-11-2010, 22:25   #33
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Thank you Hannidiana for inviting me. I trust you have good intentions. But I will wait a few years until your dogs have become a little older and you have collected some more experience with wolfdogs.

Your friend Monty Sloans article is maybe a few years old, but he still has the same opinion. Just make a phonecall to him and ask him. And now you bring up Nicole Wilde as a more experienced person. Well, Nicole Wilde has exactly the same opinion as I have. This is what Nicole Wilde writes:
"Welcome to the reality of having wolfdogs. Again, these are not dogs, and no one without specialized knowledge of their behavior and needs should be working with them, period." And more from Nicole Wilde: "Wolves as a species are afraid of humans. Wolfdogs, especially the higher-content individuals (who generally look and act wolfier than dogs) tend to be on the shy, skittish side. They have special needs as far as early socialization if they are to be workable “pets” and live in the world rather than spending their lives in an enclosure. They can be very sensitive and require an extremely gentle approach in training. One false move and the bond of trust between wolfdog and owner can be broken forever. Behavior modification with wolfdogs requires plenty of patience, and one should never push these animals over threshold."
So you must understand that you cannot compare this animals to normal dogs. It is dangerous. Its lots of ignorant people out there whom will beleive you and buy themselves a wolfhybrid and raise them as normal dogs. Also CWD owners who beleive that their experiences with a CWD makes them competent to own a wolf or cross their wolfdog with a pure wolf and sell the offspring. You like to compare them to a Ferrari automobile. OK - do that, but remember that if you drive your Ferrari at 230 km/h on the local road in the neighbourhood and survived is partly driving skills, but mostly pure luck. And understand how stupid it is to recommend the public to drive 240 km/h on the local roads because you did it yourself and survived.
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Old 16-11-2010, 23:46   #34
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I only judge what I personlly see and live with. Of course there are enough people who do not inform well. The Ferrari example is simply, no one drives with a Ferrari on a gravle road. The 240 km/h is in german normal. On our highways you are on most parts allowed to drive as fast you want. The people do not die on these highways but in the cities mostly.

Wolf- and Wolfdog rescuers are getting almost only in contact and touch with people who have problems with their animals. Like in germany the normal dog shelters get in touch with people who have problems with their dogs and gave them away. But they do not get in touch with the majority of people who do not have problems. I put in here the link to the wolfconnection, you can easyly watch the pics where they are hiking with their high content wolfdogs, leash trained dogs and even with kids. Monty and Nicole know for example Mace Loftus from the wolf crossing and know very well that they do have no problems for over 20 years. Monty of course knows that I do have no problems as well. Noomi did have already two heats, she adult and adult. And guess what with every heat she is more friendly to me and becomes more open to people.

The problem is people like you read this and think oh wow, all wolfdogs and owners are like this. But the truth I told here, only 20.000 = 2,7 % in shelter! This is the truth. So please do not turn around the facts. And again, I have experience with 8 year dogs, I went with them to McDonalds met small dogs and children without any problem.

Better you come now and than in 2 years again, so you can make a good comparison. That is always funny, people like you who are only knowledge because of reading, will not come. All these open people come and will be convinced immediately.

You mentioned a lot of dog breeds in Ann her wolfdogs. Where did you have it from? Here is a pic from Noomi´s aunts and grandma. Do you really think that there are all these dogs in you mentioned?

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Old 17-11-2010, 00:29   #35
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Yuko you mentioned that a lot of people have highly working gsd in their families. But do you know that for example in germany 80% of biting from dogs to people happens in their own family? So it says nothing that there are gsd in families because 80% in germany of all bitings happen in these families.

coming to the comparison with cars and what Monty and Nicole wrote over 10 years ago. People are able to develop. 20 years ago we drove with a VW Beetle. And today in germany you do not found cars which are not able to drive 190 - 200 km/h. So things develop.

And nowadays the good breeders take care who will get a wolfdog. But of course there are always bad ones who do not select.

When you are from Norway, you maybe know the wolfdogs from Finland. In the moment there are mostly F 2 45%. They are so cool and calm even the young ones. I met several a month ago in Helsinki. You would never believe that they are F 2. They are offspring of Alaskan Tundra male wolf Boogie and Siberian Husky working line female Blondy.
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Old 17-11-2010, 00:37   #36
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Yuko you mentioned that a lot of people have highly working gsd in their families. But do you know that for example in germany 80% of biting from dogs to people happens in their own family? So it says nothing that there are gsd in families because 80% in germany of all bitings happen in these families.
This doesn't make sense because 80% of bites from family dogs doesn't mean all 80% is from German Shepherd Dog as not 100% of German families keep GSDs..

Also, nobody reports dog bites from small dogs, everyone knows that bite statistics aren't accurate due to reporting rates and trends.
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Old 26-11-2010, 22:36   #37
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There is no statistic how many wolfdogs are in shelters. But there are not so many shelters and they are in contact with each other and I am in contact with some of them. Very easy, if you use internet and are able to talk to people, you get the information. The total number of wolfdogs is written in Dave Mech´s book from 2003, and I got the number from the scientist Prof. Dr. Ray Pierotti and from the biggest breeders. So I made a middle number. And as I wrote in facebook are in the meantime hundreds wof people having wolfdogs and rescue shelters and breeders. And I am in contact with all. It is a far bigger community like the csw. Of course having only about 5.000 csw world wide it is nothing to compare to 700.000 american wolfdogs.

And I am of course in very good contact to the scandinavian wolfdog owners. Most live in Finland.

Ann created her own breed the "Alaskan Noble Companion Dogs". It is very simple. She is trainer too and takes from other people the exam. She is very experienced. But that you can read on my website I put the link here in.

Buschgardens, I know, that are animals from Lorraine. The wolf/wolfdog world is very small. And because of my animals and I am one of a handfull people who imported an animal from the north america, write for the wolfdogs magazine, have a good website, have the contact to the most important wolf researchers like Dave, Bob, Ray and Greg it makes an all in all for me and people do know me. And it does not often happen that Monty Sloan visit private persons. But he did with me, we are friends.

And I am friend too with Mark Rowlands "The Philosopher and the Wolf". So I have experience not only with my own animals, but I get all important information first hand! And so I am wondering that a person like Fenris, who even does not have a csw means to know about the wolfdog world.

I know animals at Busch Gardens are from Deborah Warrick and Mace Loftus has two there also. But i was unaware of Lorraine having any there.
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Old 29-11-2010, 01:30   #38
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For those of you who are in facebook can now see two short video clips from Wolfscience Center which I took last week during my three day stay there. Please look under my profile or wolfdogs magazine.

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