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Wolves and wolfdogs All about animals similar to CzW... Information about other Wolfdogs: Saarloos Wolfhound, Lupo Italiano...

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Old 15-01-2005, 01:51   #1
Cyndi
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I've been trying to find somebody who has Utonagan puppies for sale. If anybody knows how I could get a male and female, please let me know. I think these dogs are very beautiful, and would love to own them and breed them. From everything that I have read, they sound like they have great temperments and great personalities. I'm a big collector on wolves. I think they are very facinating. I just wouldn't want one as a pet. These dogs are the closest thing to them that I could get. Please, if you have any information, let me know. thanks
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Old 15-01-2005, 14:08   #2
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If you are in the UK look on the web also under Northern Inuit,both are the same breed just a difference of opinion between breeders.
These are not in anyway wolfdogs,just bred to look similar without any wolfblood.
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Old 15-01-2005, 19:20   #3
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Hi there, there is an official site for Utonagan which is www.utonagan.co.uk, if you visit this and contact the secretary or chairperson they can place you on the waiting list for a puppy.
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Old 15-01-2005, 20:51   #4
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I live in the United States. I'm trying to find someone that can maybe ship some over here, or if anyone has them in the United States, I can pick them up.
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Old 16-01-2005, 00:23   #5
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I do not like the look of the Utonagan dogs at all, but for those who want to see them, maybe check this link: http://www.utonagan.net/

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Old 16-01-2005, 02:30   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirkawolf1
I do not like the look of the Utonagan dogs at all, but for those who want to see them, maybe check this link
Mirka
Hmmm.... I visited this link and I was really surprised while reading:

A Timber Wolf alternative
A Saaloos Wolfdog alternative
A Czechoslovakian Wolfdog alternative


Can somebody tell me what Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs have to do with this breed? Please don't understand me wrong - I'm really for founding new breeds but writing such words means that people who made this page have no idea about CzWs....

1) I can't find the information that Utonagan were made for work so how can this dogs be an alternative for Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs? Or maybe I'm wrong and there are really some Utonagans with IPO, SchH, SAR-exams or similar certificates?

2) Utonagans are German Shepherd, Malamute and Siberian Husky crossings. And they are still very similar to Malamutes or Siberian Huskies. It means they have something to do with American Wolfdogs and maybe with Saarloos. But with CzW? ....nothing....
CzWs were crossings between GSDs and EUROPEAN Wolves and they look totally different. I can't imagine that someone can think looking on the pictures of Utonagans that it is a Czechoslovakian Wolfdog or European Wolf... Even a layman can see the differences...
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Old 16-01-2005, 07:22   #7
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I tink they mean for people who like the look of CWD or any of the others that these are another type of dog breed to consider before choosing. Not that it is identical. It might mean that only people who are truly interested in CWD will come here and that people that just want a look alike wolf will go there. There are obvious differences between the two but they are simillar. I like the fact they say alternative instead of better or worse. I think all these dogs are gorgeous.
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Old 16-01-2005, 14:37   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ligerwolve
I tink they mean for people who like the look of CWD or any of the others that these are another type of dog breed to consider before choosing. Not that it is identical.
I understand it. But the differences between both two breeds (Utonagan and CzW) are simply to big.... Just imagine I will write:

Czechoslovakian Wolfdog
A Belgian Malinois alternative


What will you say about it? That it is right because CzW and Malinois are dog breeds and CzW as different breed can be an alternative.
Or maybe you will think that if I write it is an alternative than I'm talking about the characteristics of CzW and you will await that CzW is so great dog for agility and protection work as Malinois?
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Old 16-01-2005, 16:33   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirkawolf1
I do not like the look of the Utonagan dogs at all, but for those who want to see them, maybe check this link
Having visited the site I discovered THE TRUTH : Armin in an utonagan This is a joke, of course, but... who knows?
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Old 16-01-2005, 17:29   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rona
Having visited the site I discovered THE TRUTH : Armin in an utonagan

I'm not so sure about Armin, but his children with Lupina (all three Mutaras) are Utonagans for 100% - it is not a joke.
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Old 16-01-2005, 19:25   #11
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Hi,

there could be a little bit of truth in Margo's idea about the similarity of the Mutara-crosses and the Utonagan.
But the other way round.I personally don't think,although the Utonagan(I wouldn't call it a breed yet) doesn't look very wolfish ,was not only bred from the three breeds mentioned on the link above.
To me it is very obvious that at least one or even a few Saarloos-Wolfdogs (not CWDs) were used to create this type of dog.
But of course, as we know it from many other so called breeds,nobody would tell it.
If you look on the standart of the Utonagan you will see that it is nearly impossible to breed such a type of dog within 15 years out of GSDs,Huskies and Malamutes.
The other question is,why does anybody want to create a type of dog out these three working breeds.
Just for the looks,just for monetary reasons,just for an idea ?


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Michael
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Old 16-01-2005, 19:47   #12
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Believe it or not, wolves sell. Lots of people seem to feel a strong empathy with wolves for some reason. Though unfortunately many of them have little to no idea of what wolves are really like. I don't know if this was the basis for the creation of the breed, but the way the website is created notably this
"We are an alternative to all other wolf like breeds"
sounds like a marketing ploy of some kind. (And I agree with Margo... those dogs are as close to a CLT as a teckel is to a basset... yes they are roughly the same size, yes they are roughly the same shape, but you would have to be blind not to see the difference)

(short edit to correct a typo... can't stand typos at least not my typos)
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Old 16-01-2005, 20:52   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Margo
I'm not so sure about Armin, but his children with Lupina (all three Mutaras) are Utonagans for 100%
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn
To me it is very obvious that at least one or even a few Saarloos-Wolfdogs (not CWDs) were used to create this type of dog.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't Lupina been claimed to be a Canadian wolf? If Mutaras look like Untonagans then either the Utanagans do have wolf's blood but the breeders try to conceal it for obvious reasons, or the Mutaras have nothing of a wolf and their mother is a sort of Utonagan mix...

Quote:
The other question is,why does anybody want to create a type of dog out these three working breeds.
Just for the looks,just for monetary reasons,just for an idea ?
A good question! I think Dharkwolf is right:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dharkwolf
wolves sell. Lots of people seem to feel a strong empathy with wolves for some reason. Though unfortunatly many of them have little to no idea of what wolves are really like.
I can think of a few more reasons: some want to show off, impress their neighbours or friends, feel more macho-like - the "Me and My Wolf" sort of attitude , etc., etc. And of course, there are also true wolf lovers who treat the dogs as imperfect substitutes for wolves which they cannot breed... They're watching their dogs and dreaming of wolves...

What really suprises me is the marketing slogan: "We are an alternative to all other wolf like breeds"- there is more to a wolf, a Sarloos, a CWD and probably even to an Utonagan than looks!
Maybe "We are an alternative to wolves" would be fairer and... more effective?
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Old 16-01-2005, 23:30   #14
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Hi There, Wolves, wolf dogs, wolf hybrids are obviously banned in the UK, but that doesn't stop UK residents wishing they could own something similar. The UKKC is so uptight that apart from the Czwd and the Saarloos which are having problems in the UK (I'm gutted about this as I wanted one) the Utonagan is the closest wolf alike that I've met through Utonagan owners and breeders from www.utonagan.co.uk. If anyone can please advise of any other wolf alikes I would be really grateful. The breeders from the site above state that the orignal breeder crossed these three breeds (with something else, ehmm!!) to develop a breed that resembles the wolf' (appearance only) as closely as possible. As alot of people in the UK (me included, sorry) and other parts of the world think the Husky and the Mal are similar to the wolf, I don't think they went far wrong with the Utonagan, really. Those I've met are definately wolf like and get hundreds of admirers at shows, etc. They definately haven't used Saarloos or Czwd on this site (I think they enquired but due to restrictions couldn't import them at the time) but I think Margo was right on her other suggestion!!!. They haven't used Husky, Mal or GSD for years either, it is purely Utonagan to Utonagan. They didn't breed them for work merely for appearance but they are very versatile and used in various disciplines including helping the disabled.

Selected GSD' were apparently used, for a short period only, to elongate the snout (more like the wolf), so I'm told, but this then increased ear size also, this has been bred out in the main. I do have a picture of a Czwd and a Utonagan somewhere, where they both look identical and I personally can definately see a similarity hence why I love both breeds, but as I've said if anyone can advise of another breed that is more wolf like (and permissable in the UK), please do tell me as I've been looking for ages now..lol
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Old 17-01-2005, 07:01   #15
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First of all Mutaras look nothing like Utonagans. I don't know what site you guys have been looking at, but Mahtal Utonagans look a lot like wolves or wolf dogs. Here is the website: www.mahtal-utonagan.co.uk/
Not everybody wants to raise a wolf (no offense, I'm a big wolf fan). I think that the GSD, Husky, & Malamute were a very good combination. They all have great temperments and are three beautiful dogs. I collect wolf everything, but I would not want an actual wolf. There is always that chance of them acting like there breed which is wild.
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Old 17-01-2005, 09:19   #16
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I think as far as classifying these breeds they are all considered wolfdogs. Dogs which look like or act more like wolves than other dogs. I also assume that these would be good working dogs as all of the breeds used were intelligent working breeds. I considered breeding a dog that was like this rather than trying to import, though I would use a couple of other breeds as well. I think wolves are beautiful, what is wrong with wanting a dog that looks like one but has the temperament of a GSD? wouldnt that mean less people taking on wolf hybrids and then distoying them because they couldnt handle its wildness? I personally would love to own a wolf but I cant in Australia, not because of its looks but for what it is. I would love to study how they interact. But I understand why someone would want one of these dogs.
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Old 17-01-2005, 15:41   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyndi
First of all Mutaras look nothing like Utonagans.
Maybe they do not look like Utonagans now because Canadian Wolves change their colour after some years (for example their mother Lupina was also brown when she was young and she is pure-white now). But they have similar 'roots'...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyndi
I don't know what site you guys have been looking at, but Mahtal Utonagans look a lot like wolves or wolf dogs.
If I will look on Utonagans and take in consideration the look of American Wolves and Wolfdogs then: yes, Utonagans are relative wolfish. ...But if I will compare them with European Wolves or Czechoslovakian Wolves then: no, they do not look similar to a wolf. Not a little bit. It is enough to take a look on European Wolves:
http://www.wolfdog.org/eng/gallery/cat5.html (without last 4 links)
Expecially nice photos from Pistoia:
http://www.wolfdog.org/eng/gallery/cat1663.html

Sure some people in Europe know a lot of movies with white or black wolves from USA and they will believe Utonagans are wolfish. But is was also the reason why so many people in Europe buy Siberian Huskies as wolf substitution...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ligerwolve
I think wolves are beautiful, what is wrong with wanting a dog that looks like one but has the temperament of a GSD? wouldnt that mean less people taking on wolf hybrids and then distoying them because they couldnt handle its wildness?
Although I would like it would be true what you wrote but I'm sorry I must disappoint you. Do you want an example? Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs. Created by the Czech army not because the people there were wolf fans but because they were looking for "better" GSD: more tough, more vigilant with better "nose" (smell). The best solution was to cross GSD with Wolves. And they achieved their goal: better working abilities as border guard dogs. Reason why CzWs look like wolves are not their creator's taste but down-to-earth reasons:
1) the exterier genes of wolf were dominant
2) the body of a wolf is simply perfect - wolves live almost all over the world and they can adapt to all conditions. Dogs with such body have similar characteristics.
The Czechoslovakian army made very strong selection (unimaginable today) for 20 years. And after it the same selection made private breeders also for over 20 years. And the result is a dog which we call today Czechoslovakian Wolfdog where "Wolfdog" has historical meaning pointing to the origin of this breed.
Sure CzWs are different than GSD because nobody of us want to achieve such characteristisc. And they are not dogs for beginners. But compared to other "normal" breed they are much less 'agressive' (for example compared to Belgian Shepherd Dogs), much less dominant (for example compared to Rottweilers), aso.
But because they are "Wolfdogs" the Little Red Riding Hood syndrome is still working what you can see in the problems of CzWs in UK, Norway or Sweden. The people there responsible for regulations don't care about getting info about this dogs, about their character. They do not rely on statistics or real knowledge. There are no accidents with CzWs behind it. They simply made new law basing on their own phobia.

If you want to make an experiment just convince Utonagan breeders to change the name to "Utonagan Wolfdog". What do you think - how long it will take the bureaucrats there to put also Utonagan on the ban list....?
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Old 17-01-2005, 17:55   #18
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Margo,
This is a good point,most of the UK interest in ther CZW is for totally the wrong reason and few actually have any idea of the working capability of the breed.
Without doubt there will be those who would use the CZW to introduce wolf genetics into other breeds,if it has not already been done and I am told that this has been done in europe with the GSD,this should not be the reason to own the CZW,they are a wonderful working dog in their own right and this has been my argument with DEFRA although they choose not to listen,their first comment in their replies is "If you currently own a wolf hybrid then you need to etc)which shows just how little knowledge or understanding they actually have.
The CZW is the result of careful breeding and selection not just another hybrid of unknown origin.
I have been trying to convince the police to try one because of the scenting ability but as usual political reasons prevent it.
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Old 19-01-2005, 08:02   #19
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Sorry I didnt mean their is anything wrong with CWD's but that there is nothing wrong with breeding a dog that looks like a wolf but doesnt have the agression ( more like stubborness ). I own a czech shepherd ( a wolf dog) and I personally think she is perfect, but not for everyone. So if they breed a dog that looks like a wolf but is more laid back I think there will be less people buying work dogs. As far as the goverment goes I know as a fact that we use wolfdogs here in the Air Force and Army. My dog has training as a sniffer dog. She is an ex-air force dog. Just try hide her favourite toy They are considered better working dogs than GSD. I do however hear romours of CWD's being scittish and that would put the Army off.
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Old 19-01-2005, 11:53   #20
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Lingerwolve - sorry, what does scittish mean? I don't think CsWs are any more aggresivce than other dog breeds, stubborn - maybe, but I think it is the showing of their inteligence. Anyway, I think if people want utonagans, I don't see it as a problem, but they really don't look as much as wolves, especially with their malamute-like tails. No offence.
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