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Wolves and wolfdogs All about animals similar to CzW... Information about other Wolfdogs: Saarloos Wolfhound, Lupo Italiano...

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Old 19-01-2005, 12:55   #21
michaelundinaeichhorn
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Hi Ligerwolve,

I'm really curious.What is a Czech Sheperd ?
And in brackets you called her a wolfdog.So what is she now,a CWD or GSD ?
The only Czech sheperd dog I know is the so called Chodsky Pes breed (not recognized by FCI), a typical old continental herding and guarding type of dog.
In behaviour and exteriour absolutely different to the British type of herding dog.The avarage size is 50 cm which is about 19,5 inches.
Do you have one of those dogs ?
They make brilliant working dogs, such as sniffing and avalanche rescue dogs
Another thing is,wolves need aggression to survive (territoral,sexual and food motivated aggression),this is not bad and has nothing to do with stubborness at all.
All of our domesticated dogs inherited this behaviour from their wild ancestors. Even a Toy Poodle !
As a behaviourist I see these problem cases .In most cases it has nothing to do with the breed,but with certain people keeping the wrong breed and treating them like a human and not like a dog,which is not fair to the dog.
Sooner or later rank order problems will arise.
So we have to be very careful in generalizing a certain behaviour or even certain dog breeds.

Michael
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Old 19-01-2005, 14:14   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saschia
I don't think CsWs are any more aggressive than other dog breeds, stubborn - maybe, but I think it is the showing of their intelligence.
Neither wolves are aggressive animals! Some alphas may be more independent and decisive- acting as "pack leaders" - but on principle wolves avoid humans and hunt farm animals only when starving, struggling for survival, exactly like packs of dogs that run wild... But nobody sane would ban dog breeding due to such incidents! CWD are relatively independent and intelligent on the whole, and some CzWs are more independent and strong-willed than others, but the same can be said of almost any breed, including the ones used for Untanagans... All dogs are close to wolves!!! Otherwise cross-breeding wouldn't be possible at all....
Personally I have nothing against Untanagans, they are beautiful and look charming, but I think it's unfair to call them an alternative to any other breed, as if they were meant to be a substitute of anything. Either it is a unique breed with described appearance and predictable, to certain extent , temperament and character, like CWD or Sarloos or not. But definitely there is more to a breed than just appearance!
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Old 19-01-2005, 18:54   #23
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Hello Rona,

wolves ,as other species too,are aggressive animals.
And it is an absolutely essential behaviour to show these forms of aggression I mentioned in my previous comment.Without them it wouldn't be possible to survive,reproduce and form a stable pack.
But we have to distinguish between any form of aggression and hunting behaviour.
Hunting behaviour is not an aggressive behaviour.
Neither form of aggression is involved if a wolf or a dog kills farm or other animals.
No social interaction between the two animals happens if a sheep gets killed by a wolf.
But any kind of social interaction is necessary to show aggression.
So defence work with dogs for example, is normally based on play instinct which is a form of hunting behaviour.
If you do it properly the dog doesn't fall into aggressive behaviour.
But that's another story.

Michael
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Old 20-01-2005, 00:00   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn
Hello Rona,

wolves ,as other species too,are aggressive animals.
And it is an absolutely essential behaviour to show these forms of aggression I mentioned in my previous comment.Without them it wouldn't be possible to survive,reproduce and form a stable pack.
Michael
I cannot help, but I disagree with this. Wolves are not exactly aggressive animals. They have developed a complex rules of behaviour to prevent fights and aggression in the pack. Those rules are sometimes very complicated, but to the wolves they are perfectly clear. The wolves communicate, show dominance or submission, but for me dominance does not automatically mean aggression.
The main purpose of all the communications expressing rank and relationships within the pack is to keep peace. The wolves in the pack can rarely afford to fight each other, because that would be destructive to the well-being of the pack. Thus, they use gestures and symbolic actions, to PREVENT the aggression.

Mirka
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Old 20-01-2005, 01:23   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn
wolves ,as other species too,are aggressive animals.
.
OK. You're right if the word "agressive" is to be understood in scientific -biological /behaviourist context. In this context people too, are agressive, and this characteristic enables them to survive as individuals and species.

What I meant was rather the popular meaning of the term. Some people think that wolves are wild beasts that attack everything on their way that moves, which of course is totally wrong. In natural environment wolves keep away from humans and that's why CWD owners are advised to socialise the puppies from early age. Otherwise some of them might devlop a fear of people which seems to be a trait inherited from their remote ancestors.
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Old 21-01-2005, 00:58   #26
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A Czech Shepherd, is a dog designed as a working dog that is used by Australian Armed Forces. They have GSD like markings but on closer inspection look nothing like it. Think of a CWD make it all black, give it a wider rib cage and shorter legs. that will ruffly give you the other idea. You should be able to find examples of this on the internet, but you also get GSD. In Australia we have 2 types of wolfdogs. The Czech Shepherd and the Timber Shepherd. It is hard to find information on these breeds because untill recently they were illegal to have as pets and because it could cause the same problems if the public found out that the Army used wolf like dogs. I have a friend in the Armed Forces that gave me one, otherwise I would have never known about them. My dog was not trained properly by the owner who skipped steps all the time. Then wanted her destoyed because she did not do what he wanted. My friend rescued her and gave her to me. I've never had such a smart dog Akayla (the dog) would never bite unless a person tries to hurt me. She is always trying to rescue children in the park or near water, she is very protective. Unfortunately the breeders here will only do business with the Armed forces so I cannot get another from here. I have heard the CWD is just as smart and a good worker so that is why I am interested in importing one. My only point was that the Utonagon is also a nice (wolf like) breed. Though I havent heard as many good things about them.
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Old 20-01-2006, 02:31   #27
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Hello,

We are new to the internet, may have found the wrong place to write this and don't have a Czechoslovakian wolfdog. What we do have is what we have always known as a wolfdog. In the early 1990's this did not seem to be a problem in the UK but now they are aparantly known as utonagan etc etc. Forgive us for our ignorance but we have owned our dogs who are not the first for a long time and are rather worried about a few things.
1. Wolf dogs to us are completely loyal, trustworthy animals to their pack and family. Cannot be trusted with livestock, small pets etc and must have secure fencing etc and as long as they are brought up properly and with respect they have always given the same back.
2. Are any of these animals sold as other names in the Uk actually wolf hybrids and sold to unknowing families as good with small children/ cats etc.
3 If this does happen not only are these lovely dogs getting wrongly accused for things that shouldn't happen people and animals may be getting hurt from the incorrect advice they are getting from breeders. i.e. we have always purchased our wolf dogs knowing what they are like.

Just a worrying thought I have.

Kelvin Tuplin
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Old 20-01-2006, 03:30   #28
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Hello Kelvin and wellcome! Answering to your first question, the CZW has definitely nothing to do with the Utanagon you talk about. The CZW is a quite new breed with their own history which you will find in the home page. I believe that your dogs must be hybrids for what I infer from your words.
CZW are perfectly trainable dogs, but as you say they will feel more comfortable wiht those of the pack :I talk from my own experience, my CZW won't allow anyone home unless they are from the pack. For the rest, if they are well socialized there won't be any problem with children, other dogs or any other pets.
Esther
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Old 20-01-2006, 03:30   #29
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Hello Kelvin, and welcome to Wolfdog.org!

To be honest I am not quite sure what your question is, so I will clarify a few things, and maybe you can explain your concerns a little bit better.

A wolfdog is generally accepted to be an individual that belongs to a dog breed (an established dog breed, generally recognized by the FCI) that contains a certain known percentage of wolf blood.

A wolf hybrid is a cross between a dog and a wolf, (F1) or between a wolf hybrid and a dog or wolf (F2, F3 etc)

The main difference between a wolfdog and a wolf hybrid is that wolfdogs are the result of careful breeding which has resulted in lines of working dogs (all wolfdogs are working dogs) who have a stable character and therefore make good pets in the hands of the right owners (generally they do tend to be a little bit wilful and harder to handle than your average dog though). On the other hand wolf hybrids are the result of a cross between two animals of very different temperament whose behaviour cannot be predicted and which can be very difficult to handle at times. They may turn out to be great pets – then again they may not, despite all the effort that can be spent on working with them.

I should point out that this site (wolfdog.org) is entirely dedicated to a particular breed of wolfdog – the Czechoslovakian Wolfdog (CSV – initials are derived from the Czech name). The other recognized breed of wolfdog is the Saarloos wolfdog.

By those definitions, an Utonagan is not in fact a wolfdog, rather it belongs to a line of dogs which have been bred to appear as close to wolves as possible but which have been bred purely from a mix of dog breeds – odds are you know more about the origins of Utonagans than I do so I won’t go into details there.

Quote:
1. Wolf dogs to us are completely loyal, trustworthy animals to their pack and family. Cannot be trusted with livestock, small pets etc and must have secure fencing etc and as long as they are brought up properly and with respect they have always given the same back.
This fits the description of a CSV quite well – with the exception that a CSV which has been raised around small animals and pets will not bother them particularly, our wolfdogs get along quite well with our cat (I admit, it is a Maine Coon so not exactly a small cat… but still) and I do know of wolfdogs which get along with other small animals such as guinea pigs without any major incidents. Naturally a wolfdog who is not used to such animals will wreck havoc and mayhem (though for him it will be just a game) if left with animals which it may consider prey (they don’t have to be small either!)

The issue of wolfdogs in the UK has been addressed several times on this forum. Currently wolfdogs are banned in the UK due to the interpretation by DEFRA of the dangerous and wild animals act – some people on this site have very strong opinions about this, as the clamp down of DEFRA on wolfdogs has been rather heavy handed.

So to answer this question:

Quote:
Are any of these animals sold as other names in the Uk actually wolf hybrids and sold to unknowing families as good with small children/ cats etc.
Wolf hybrids as in a cross between wolf and dog – extremely unlikely for a number of reasons. First of all such animals are quite rare. Even dogs which are claimed to be wolf hybrids are more often than dog just simply dogs … There are currently less than 20 registered owners of wolf/wolf hybrids living in the UK and those people know what they are handling. Secondly DEFRA simply will not allow the importation of such animals. There is still a small (very small) chance that wolf hybrids may get through – but that is extremely unlikely.

Quote:
3 If this does happen not only are these lovely dogs getting wrongly accused for things that shouldn't happen people and animals may be getting hurt from the incorrect advice they are getting from breeders. i.e. we have always purchased our wolf dogs knowing what they are like.
Unfortunately you don’t even need some uncontrolled wolf hybrid running around Albion for animals to get wrongly accused. DEFRA policy also stops legitimate dog breeds (ie the CSV) from entering the UK – at the time when the policy was implemented the few CSV owners in they had their animals confiscated… a rather distressing experience as you may well imagine.

I hope this answers at least some of your questions – feel free to share any other thoughts which you may have with us, worrying or otherwise!

J.
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Old 23-01-2006, 02:09   #30
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Hello,

Thanks for your replies.
I apologise for a subject that is nothing to do with Czechoslovakian Wolfdog but from what I have seen they are lovely dogs and you seem to be honest people.

What concerns me greatly is that wolf crosses etc are sold to people that don't know what they are getting. I have a good idea that utonagan are bringing in wolves and calling their pedigrees other names.

My wolf dog can't go for walks where he may meet other dogs, he would attack cattle if he could get off the lead, he has killed cats, he would knock down the door if he wanted to be in. He also sleeps on my bed, sits on the setee at night watching TV, opens the door whilst I am in the bath etc etc.

Sorry for going on about something nothing to do with your breed but I am very worries that my dog and similar types are suffering due to the dishonesty of others who think they can get a dog to look like a wolf and act like the best behaved labrador.

Thanks,
Kevin.
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Old 23-01-2006, 04:42   #31
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Hi Kevin

Just wondering where you have heard about any addition of wolf into Utonagon's??...

Ut's are a wolf look a like not a wolf hybrid or even a wolfdog breed...

But what sometimes happens is irresponsible breeders may well pass of a dog like a Utonagon as a wolf hybrid, just for the money.
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Old 23-01-2006, 11:52   #32
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Hi,

What actually happens is some irresponsible breeders pass off wolf hybrids as utonagans so that they look more wolfy presumably for the money.
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Old 23-01-2006, 13:38   #33
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hi kevin where did you get your dog? is it a utonagan? i have a utonagan and she is friendly she will lick any one she meets at the moment she is 16 weeks old all she wants to do is play.
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Old 23-01-2006, 15:16   #34
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I'm sorry, but it all sounds very confusing to me. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems you don't really know whether you own an Untanagan, a wolf, a wolf-hybrid or wolfdog ( i.e. a Czechoslovakian Wolfdog or a Saarlos).

It is strange that some people buy animals to keep at home without even checking on the kennel, on the breeder, the pup's parents, even the breed itself. How can one buy an animal ONLY for his/her wolfish looks!!! It shows a lack of imagination and responsibility. How could a good owner provide the pet with good care and proper training, if he or she does not even know what kind of animal he/she has at home.

Every breed, (not to mention wild animals) requires a different approach, attitude, methods of to training, feeding etc. And we're not talking here of mixes of common,"easy" breeds but of beautiful, social but independent, wilful creatures with relatively complex character and sometimes (in case of wolf-hybrids) highly unpredictable set of features.

If not brought up and handled properly they may cause troubles. In result
owners of innocent, well-trained dogs of well-established breeds (such as e.g. CzV) will suffer, only becuase their dogs look similar to the "wild" and unpredictable animals
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Old 23-01-2006, 23:22   #35
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Kevin (my excuses for bungling your name earlier on)

Even though I do not agree with the premises in the DEFRA report on the keeping of wolf hybrids in the UK (namely the arbitrary definition of what actually consititutes a wolf hybrid) does contain some interesting information about this issue.

You can find the report here:

http://www.defra.gov.uk/wildlife-cou...gwd/hybrid.htm
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Old 26-01-2006, 14:33   #36
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Quote:
What concerns me greatly is that wolf crosses etc are sold to people that don't know what they are getting. I have a good idea that utonagan are bringing in wolves and calling their pedigrees other names.

My wolf dog can't go for walks where he may meet other dogs, he would attack cattle if he could get off the lead, he has killed cats, he would knock down the door if he wanted to be in.
He also sleeps on my bed, sits on the setee at night watching TV, opens the door whilst I am in the bath etc etc.

a. It is up to PEOPLE to research, even though I do not condone the Back Yard Breeding of such animals, A well researched owner thus would not buy such an animal as they would know better.

b. It is in the Utonagan standard that wolves should not be used in breeding, if such animal is used the animal is not a Utonagan - this is a problem however as the Utonagan is underdeveloped and un standardised, much like the Labradoodles or Cockerpoos, brought from the lovely USA. (lets get off that topic *rolls eyes*)
If a breeder uses wolves then, the Utonagan Society should make a statement or likewise.

c. Any breed of any dog may be vicious, I have known in my time some of the most hideously badly behaved Border Collie X Bearded Collies, so 2 breeds regarded as usual family loving dogs - these dogs as a result of bad ownership and training are dangerous to extremes. (One incident where one dog had its jaw wrapped lovingly around my Skull. not nice.)

" He also sleeps on my bed, sits on the setee at night watching TV, opens the door whilst I am in the bath etc etc."

Well quite simply.
that is your OWN issue and problem,
If YOU let your dog be the Boss and Alpha he will naturally assume the position if YOU are the Boss and are the Alpha over him this will effectivly erradicate this behaviour.

He acts like this because your letting him.
Dont let him in future I once knew a Pit Bull breeder (online) who even though she trusted her dogs with her own, and childrens lives would NEVER EVER EVER let them sleep on her bed. This could make the dogs territorial and attack even the family that they love to hold a position and hirachy.

DOGS have their places
PEOPLE have their places

dont confuse the two, dont let the dog EVER be the boss of you.

good luck with your dog.

I personally advise Behaviour and Training Classes by a proffesional in your case.
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Old 26-01-2006, 15:13   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kelty500
My wolf dog can't go for walks where he may meet other dogs, he would attack cattle if he could get off the lead, he has killed cats, he would knock down the door if he wanted to be in. He also sleeps on my bed, sits on the setee at night watching TV, opens the door whilst I am in the bath etc etc.
I have to agree with Amie about this. If Kevin´s wolf-dog (or whatever it is) acts like this, it is not only his fault. He does it because he thinks he CAN do it. Maybe he thinks he is the boss who decides, what he will do, where he will sleep and where he will go. Seems Kevin has no authority for the dog at all.

Of course, thinks might be more difficult to explain to a wolf-dog, than to a poodle, but it has to be done.

I´d recommend you to read and follow advices either of John Fisher (book Think dog! or Why does my dog..?) or Jan Fennel´s book Dog listener. In all these books you will be explained about the importance of Alpha status in the pack (family) and how to achieve it.

Good luck!
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Old 26-01-2006, 15:47   #38
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Hi Kevin, why don't you look at some Utonagans (formerly known as Northern Inuit) and see if your dogs resemble them, they don't adhere to a standard like other breeds coz the standard just says 'looks as much like a wolf as possible' but they don't have the gingery backs of ears and neck that CSVs have and quite a different shape. You probably have a Utonagan as they are bred for looks (for money) not for character. They cannot be shown as they are not reckognised as a breed yet. They are a bit 'silly', they're intelligent but very unlikely to do anything useful with that. They bred them from Alaskan Malamute, Siberian Husky and GSD but don't expect that they would have much of their working-dog blood left as they are purely a dog made for SELLING to people who want to tell the gawping kids that see them in the street that they have a pet wolf. These are the most likely dogs to be sold as wolfXdog. You do not have a wolfXdog coz they virtually dont exist. Who's going to smuggle a live wolf into UK?
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Old 26-01-2006, 16:06   #39
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Oh yeah , and I have nothing against Utonagans. I'm sure they are born with lovely characters. Not useful or trainable to competetive standard maybe but the ones I've met were certainly very very friendly. In fact I met five Ut's and two Malamutes at the same time and they licked me so much I nearly drowned! By the way the Ut's were the bosses over the Malamutes.
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Old 26-01-2006, 23:20   #40
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Quote:
Who's going to smuggle a live wolf into UK?
LMFAO!
you would be quite suprised!
there was a case about a year ago of a live SNOW LEOPARD being found in someones car boot!


But yes, many dogs like utonagans are bred for romantisim.
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