Go Back   Wolfdog.org forum > English > Breeding

Breeding Information about breeding, selection, litters....

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-09-2011, 13:26   #281
BeatriceSlavinschi
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 29
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Admin View Post
And the fear of the Crying Wolf breeder of making the DNA tests shows that there is really something wrong going on there.
As I know Galiba is not in the property of Crying Wolf kennel ...
Maybe the owner of Galiba should send some blood samples to solve all mysteries around this subject.
BeatriceSlavinschi jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2011, 13:32   #282
BeatriceSlavinschi
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 29
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanka View Post
Galiba has normal colour and normal mask. I know him personally and it is normal czech. wolfdog.
I also met brother of Galiba: Gizmo. And he is normal czw also ...
BeatriceSlavinschi jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2011, 13:39   #283
BeatriceSlavinschi
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 29
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Admin View Post
Maybe it the explanation... Because "affected" would be Sibir (father of the red dogs in FR) and Volos (father of the Saarloos alike dogs from France).
Admin, let me understand ... also Sibir and Volos are suspected of being saarlos mixes, or only their offsprings? Because if they aren't, maybe is the mother of that litters with saarlos genes... ??? As I saw in the database, they have puppies only in France and some of french breeders are known to bred mixes ... right?
BeatriceSlavinschi jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2011, 13:44   #284
Hanka
Senior Member
 
Hanka's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Kadaň
Posts: 1,622
Send a message via ICQ to Hanka Send a message via Skype™ to Hanka
Default

Beatrice, I asked owner of Galiba about help for my friends....
Hanka jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2011, 13:44   #285
Morian
Senior Member
 
Morian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: USSR
Posts: 2,047
Send a message via Skype™ to Morian
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BeatriceSlavinschi View Post
also Sibir and Volos are suspected of being saarlos mixes, or only their offsprings?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Admin View Post
The DNA test of the red Wolfdogs were done in France so it is proven that the red puppies are sired by son of Galiba.
i understood that sibir and volos...
__________________
Morian jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2011, 13:51   #286
BeatriceSlavinschi
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 29
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rona View Post
I think this is a matter of each national Kennel/Breed club. On receiving a document granting breeding rights (or at bonitation), the owner should be asked to sign a document stating he is obliged to provide DNA material of the dog if any doubts appear concerning his/her parenthood (+ a list of reliable labs provided). If he refused, he would be banned from the club and his dog would lose breeding rights, so the pups couldn't be registered. This would also mean the dog would not be able to participate in dog shows.
Rona, I agree with you. This is a common sense issue and I think all clubs should do so. And you speak here only for doubtfull litters... I understand in Sweden they do it for obtaining the pedigree for pups. We need to move forward ... for the benefit of our breed.
BeatriceSlavinschi jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2011, 14:09   #287
BeatriceSlavinschi
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 29
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morian View Post
i understood that sibir and volos...
Ok. I understand also that the genetic tests were done on their (Volos and Sibir) offsprings - grandsons of Galiba, not directly on Volos or Sibir, but on their puppies which they sired. So the question was: they produce these puppies by themselves? Wasn't there any females? The red gene is surely from father line or may be from mother line?
BeatriceSlavinschi jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2011, 14:15   #288
Morian
Senior Member
 
Morian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: USSR
Posts: 2,047
Send a message via Skype™ to Morian
Default

as admin said - both parents might be carriers. and they both have galiba in their pedigree. so it would be good to have dna sample of galiba to check is he the father.
__________________
Morian jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2011, 15:28   #289
BeatriceSlavinschi
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 29
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morian View Post
as admin said - both parents might be carriers. and they both have galiba in their pedigree. so it would be good to have dna sample of galiba to check is he the father.
Ok. Now you've knocked me down ... Are you saying that both parents can have Galiba in their pedigrees? Isn't this called inbreeding?
Ok. Now I looked in the database ... and maybe you got my point wrong.
I was saying that for having a litter you need two parents, right? When you said "both parents" I think you are not refering at Volos and Sibir. When I say both parents I say FATHER = Volos or Sibir
MOTHER = one of the females
So my question was: isn't it possible that the red gene to be from the mother's line? I saw there in the database that both Volos and Sibir had puppies with french females. Maybe is in their blood the red gene?
I understand that not Volos and Sibir were tested, but their offsprings with other females. So wouldn't be necessary that females be also tested? How do you know that the red gene is from father's line and is Galiba?
BeatriceSlavinschi jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2011, 15:36   #290
Morian
Senior Member
 
Morian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: USSR
Posts: 2,047
Send a message via Skype™ to Morian
Default

i'm totally lost
parents of red pups were thalia and sibir, and

Quote:
Originally Posted by Admin View Post
Maybe it the explanation... Because "affected" would be Sibir (father of the red dogs in FR) and Volos (father of the Saarloos alike dogs from France). It will be also explanation why the Crying Wolf breeder is so much afraid about the DNA tests. Because it can show that Galiba is not the father of Sibir?
so as i understand now not only galiba is "doubtful"?? if both parents must be carriers, then it means... falco is their common ancestor, so the question is about him maybe??? is he father of galiba and other cw itters? admin, please, clarify it
__________________
Morian jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2011, 15:52   #291
BeatriceSlavinschi
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 29
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morian View Post
i'm totally lost
parents of red pups were thalia and sibir, and

so as i understand now not only galiba is "doubtful"?? if both parents must be carriers, then it means... falco is their common ancestor, so the question is about him maybe??? is he father of galiba and other cw itters? admin, please, clarify it
Now it's more clear to me about what you were talking about, but still awaiting an answer from admin ...
BeatriceSlavinschi jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2011, 15:54   #292
Morian
Senior Member
 
Morian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: USSR
Posts: 2,047
Send a message via Skype™ to Morian
Default

beatrice, i also wait for admin's answer you see - it's already easy to be lost in this info... totally
__________________
Morian jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2011, 16:11   #293
BeatriceSlavinschi
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 29
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morian View Post
beatrice, i also wait for admin's answer you see - it's already easy to be lost in this info... totally
Now I'm lost even more ... I have looked in Sibir and Thalia pedigrees and they are half the same ... It's like 50% COI and that's A LOT! Do you know the person who bred them? Because maybe here is the problem ... Are they the real parents of the offsprings or maybe some genetic mutations? I'm not so good with genetics, but 50% is it allowed? I knew something about 20 maximum ... or even less.
BeatriceSlavinschi jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2011, 19:58   #294
monita
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: 3121 Somoskőújfalu Somosi út 161.
Posts: 37
Default

By the rules of FCI, endogamy is allowed, sibling + sibling, father + its daughter, or mother + its son. This is called inbreeding. We call it line breeding if the parents' relatives are the same somewhere. We call it outerbreeding if we match two different lined parents. This is allowed by the FCI but every country can decide otherwise.
I can answer to genetics, inheritance or other questions.
monita jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2011, 03:49   #295
Jennin Lauma
Junior Member
 
Jennin Lauma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Finland
Posts: 66
Default

There does not necessarely need to be tests drawn from the suspected individuals;
in this kind of situations when the suspected dogs have had (according to the pedigree information) several litters and plenty of offspring, one way to try to find out if the pedigrees are correct or not is to test and compare the DNA of the offspring from the suspected individuals. -All the offspring of certain individuals should be genetically (atleast) 50% the same. (Grand children 25% ...and so on).
Maybe it would be easier to find helpfull people among the buyers / owners of the puppies?
__________________
-Jenni-
http://jenninlauma.weebly.com
Jennin Lauma jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2011, 09:57   #296
admin
Moderator
 
admin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 584
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morian View Post
i'm totally lost
parents of red pups were thalia and sibir, and
so as i understand now not only galiba is "doubtful"??
Of course not. Also the T-litter is "under investigation". But the only dog from this littter used for breeding is Thalia and Lory wrote already she will not use her or any other her offsprings for breeding. So this part of the line is out of breeding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morian View Post
if both parents must be carriers, then it means... falco is their common ancestor, so the question is about him maybe??? is he father of galiba and other cw itters? admin, please, clarify it
First remember the lies of the Hungarian breeder that the Saarloos she owned was sterylized although on the photos is clearly visible he had both testicles. Nebulosa published also a link to Czech web site which is publishing information about his litters. Second there is the fear of the Hungarian breeder to make the DNA tests. So why there are so many lies spread by this breeder if there is nothing to hide? I'm sure that ANY other (honest) breeder would even ask for official DNA tests if there would be such accusations published on any page.

And last but not least - I can see in the database that there are MANY offsprings of the F-Kollarov dvor dogs in Slovakia. Many breeders made already inbreeds. But I asked and not even one dogs is born red. Not even one have the Saarloos characteristics which appear by the offsprings of Crying Wolf dogs.

As it was mentioned - I asked some breeders from Slovakia and they swear the Saarloos was and still is unknown in their country. There is no possibility that any Slovakian litters are Saarloos crosses. And there is no possiblity to have "red" blood in the Slovakian lines and it do not exist by European Wolves, was not present by the GSD used for building our breed and never appeared by CsW. And I believe them as everybody knows that the Slovakian pupulation is much more inbreeded (much more related) than any other population. For 30 years there was not even one red dog born in SK but already 3 by Crying Wolf. Pure X-files....
admin jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2011, 16:30   #297
monita
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: 3121 Somoskőújfalu Somosi út 161.
Posts: 37
Default

There's only one breeder in Hungary: Kennel von Neckartal. And here, only pure-blood wolfdogs will born.
monita jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2011, 23:33   #298
Mikael
Scandinavian Member
 
Mikael's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Stockholm
Posts: 1,089
Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by Admin View Post
Of course not. Also the T-litter is "under investigation". But the only dog from this littter used for breeding is Thalia and Lory wrote already she will not use her or any other her offsprings for breeding. So this part of the line is out of breeding.



First remember the lies of the Hungarian breeder that the Saarloos she owned was sterylized although on the photos is clearly visible he had both testicles. Nebulosa published also a link to Czech web site which is publishing information about his litters. Second there is the fear of the Hungarian breeder to make the DNA tests. So why there are so many lies spread by this breeder if there is nothing to hide? I'm sure that ANY other (honest) breeder would even ask for official DNA tests if there would be such accusations published on any page.

And last but not least - I can see in the database that there are MANY offsprings of the F-Kollarov dvor dogs in Slovakia. Many breeders made already inbreeds. But I asked and not even one dogs is born red. Not even one have the Saarloos characteristics which appear by the offsprings of Crying Wolf dogs.

As it was mentioned - I asked some breeders from Slovakia and they swear the Saarloos was and still is unknown in their country. There is no possibility that any Slovakian litters are Saarloos crosses. And there is no possiblity to have "red" blood in the Slovakian lines and it do not exist by European Wolves, was not present by the GSD used for building our breed and never appeared by CsW. And I believe them as everybody knows that the Slovakian pupulation is much more inbreeded (much more related) than any other population. For 30 years there was not even one red dog born in SK but already 3 by Crying Wolf. Pure X-files....
I think that this post say it all

Very best regards / Mikael
__________________
_________________________________________________
*Hronec, Rasty, Zilja * Kennel, Wolfdog of Sweden* http://kennelwolfdogofsweden.vpsite.se/Home.html
Mikael jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2011, 00:12   #299
CDaniela
http://www.srdcervac.wbs.
 
CDaniela's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Unhošť - Nouzov
Posts: 1,313
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennin Lauma View Post
There does not necessarely need to be tests drawn from the suspected individuals;
in this kind of situations when the suspected dogs have had (according to the pedigree information) several litters and plenty of offspring, one way to try to find out if the pedigrees are correct or not is to test and compare the DNA of the offspring from the suspected individuals. -All the offspring of certain individuals should be genetically (atleast) 50% the same. (Grand children 25% ...and so on).
Maybe it would be easier to find helpfull people among the buyers / owners of the puppies?

Do you mean DNA profile? This is more complicated. Dog is doploid oragisms. Two siblings can have a completely identical DNA profile, or completely different.
__________________
Daniela

CDaniela jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2011, 01:03   #300
Jennin Lauma
Junior Member
 
Jennin Lauma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Finland
Posts: 66
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CDaniela View Post
Do you mean DNA profile? This is more complicated. Dog is doploid oragisms. Two siblings can have a completely identical DNA profile, or completely different.
As far as I have understood it is possible to make a DNA test to see if two individuals have same parents (siblings) or one parent (half-siblings) without a sample from the parents needed (by only comparing the supposed siblings DNA to each other).
__________________
-Jenni-
http://jenninlauma.weebly.com

Last edited by Jennin Lauma; 11-09-2011 at 01:28.
Jennin Lauma jest offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 03:55.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
(c) Wolfdog.org