To all friends

Per Olav · 08-03-2002, 23:24

Hi.
It's been an eardeafening silence on our group for a long while.
Anybody still alive out there? :-)

---
Per Olav

Susan · 09-03-2002, 00:19

still here. just waiting for september so gordon and i can visit europe and
wolfdogs.
susan

Per Olav · 09-03-2002, 00:52

Hi Susan.

Villulv · 09-03-2002, 20:13

Hi out there!

As being new to this list, I would like to present myself a little, and I'm curious about who my fellow listmember would be.

I'm "pack leader" of a German Shepherd pack, living in Sweden. Prime interests are biology, nature (wilderness), ecology, ethology, genetics etc, and especially wolves. I'm an eager activist in protecting the few wild wolves we've got in southern Scandinavia, living along the border of Sweden/Norway and became "half norwegian" last winter when I was one of the activists who tried to hinder the norwegian government to wipe out one of our few packs, but I'm sure you all know that they where shot down by helicopter in Norway.

I'mstudying to become a Ethologist. As I'v been working with biology subjects and studying the wolves, I've detected how similar the spepherds and the wolves are, both fysically but mostly mentally. That insight has made me curious about other wolf-like dogs and this study has brought me to the Czechoslovakian Wolfdog and here I am.

As I have begun studying this dog I've found that there is a very close relationship to the wolf, often 25-35% wolf blood, wich makes me believe that they are not as humanly manipulated as othter breeds and more like natures own design.

Hopefully you'll help me to be enlightened about these beautiful and amazingly wolflike dogs.

Hope to hear from you all.

Sanna Folkeson

Pavel · 09-03-2002, 21:21

Dear Sanna,
I have only shortly comment to very often opinion, which is wrong in basic.

Quote:

As I have begun studying this dog I´ve found that there is a very close relationship to the wolf, often 25-35% wolf blood, wich makes me believe that they are not as humanly manipulated as othter breeds and more like natures own design.

% of wolfblood have nothing to do with a domestication or character. We can teoretically breeding now only with dogs which have a relatively high % of wolfblood and we will have after 100 years always over 30% but the dogs will be absolutely domesticated and like you wrote "humanly manipulated". Lot of people means, that higher % of wolfblood is automaticaly higher % of wolf behaviour. But its not true. Genetics have nothing to do with % of blood. % of blood is mathematic only.
You can see, that our most succesfull working wolfdog - Hasso z Kladenske zare have over 27% of wolfblood and is in work more usefull, than some other, they have under 10%. Just in first generations after first crossing the wolf with GSD were some very good working dogs and some absolutely "wolves". Its a basic argument, why really % of wolfblood have no conection with a behaviour.

Quote:

Hopefully you´ll help me to be enlightened about these beautiful and amazingly wolflike dogs.

Thank you for compliments to our dogs. The best chance to know more about our dogs is visit some our summer camps. There you can be with dogs 14 days 24 hours. You are welcome.

Pavel

Villulv · 09-03-2002, 21:44

Thank you Pavel, for answering.

I was not really referring to behaviour of the dogs rather the fact that most "ordinary" dogs have a lot of dysfunctions that the breeding has let through and that is what I mean with manipulations. Having been studying genetics I'm aware of that the outcome would be as you presented.

It appears to be a good idea to come and visit a camp. Would you be so kind and let me know a little bit more about them - where, when, how... ?

Sanna

Pavel · 10-03-2002, 08:29

Hi Sanna and everybody,
informations about summer camp are in section "Comming events" on our pages. How traditionally is the summer camp in Lazne Belohrad in northeastern Bohemia (near city Hradec Kralove).
Accomodation is in very simply bungalows or in simply rooms in main building of camp. This year is camp from 27.8. - 9.8.2002 but you can be there to 10.8. where is in camp a CsW competition in training.
More details we dont have yet. It comming soon and we will inform you on our pages.

Pavel

Marja · 11-03-2002, 13:46

Hi,

I hope you're okay!
I think the silence is a silence before the storm.
In my case..i've been very busy and when i, in a
sparse moment,am doing nothing, i desperatly want to
keep it that way.
I think it's the time of the year!But just wait untill
spring! I think there will be more noise from
everyone.
And now i have committed myself to reply on this
message i also want to ask you about the
clickertraining.Do you still work with it?

a friend,
Marja.

Per Olav · 11-03-2002, 21:12

Hi Marja.

Thanks for responding :-)

Quote:

Hi,
I hope you're okay!

Sure I am, and even better so when receiving your mail :-)

Quote:

I think the silence is a silence before the storm.
In my case..i've been very busy and when i, in a
sparse moment,am doing nothing, i desperatly want to
keep it that way.

OK. Same on my side, but when spring has come we have to improve our
garden, rmend the house etc.

Quote:

I think it's the time of the year! But just wait untill
spring! I think there will be more noise from
everyone.
And now i have committed myself to reply on this
message i also want to ask you about the
clickertraining.Do you still work with it?

Yes I do. Now and then :-)
But now the sun is warmer and the days are longer, and we are able to see
each other even at evenings. So now is the time for more intensive training.
You'll have a more spesific report later.

Love to you all

Per Olav

Per Olav · 11-03-2002, 21:24

Hi Sanna.

Quote:

Hi out there!
[--]
Hope to hear from you all.

My name is Per Olav and I am a neighbor of you on the western side of the
Swedish/Norwegian border.
Like you who is a member of the Swedish wolf group, I'm a member of the
Norwegian Alpha-group ( http://www.alpha-gruppen.com ).
You find some pics of my CSV Fellow od Uhoste, nicknamed Cziky on his home
page. As far as I know, he's the only Scandinavian CSV.

---
Per Olav

Villulv · 11-03-2002, 23:33

Hi Per Olav,

thank you for responding! Like you, I am too a member of the ALPHA-group...

, maybe we met at the yearly meeting last year?

Maybe your CSV won=B4t be alone in Scandinavia in the future

Sanna

Minna · 12-03-2002, 11:52

Hi Per Olav, Sanna and everybody,

I am originally from Finland but live now in Switzerland (with 2 CsVs), and I know that at least in Finland there are some CsVs
and one breeder. Could you Sanna tell me/us more about the law regulations in Sweden? Sweden is - as far as I know - the only
country in Europe where all wolf dogs are banned including CsV and Saarloos. I have heard that when, for example we go for our
summer holiday to Finland we can not even drive through Sweden with our dogs. That's why we take a Ferry from Germany and go
directly to Finland. Is anything about to change in Sweden concerned this matter.

Minna

Villulv · 12-03-2002, 19:41

Hi Vuolle and everyone else!

This is fortunately not quite true about the wolves or the wolf dogs. They are banned from breeding but not from living.There are some wolf crossings and wolf dogs living here, but we are not allowed to breed from them, but - and this is very important; the breeds that are allowed as breed in the FCI standards are allowed as dogs also to breed in this country. The Swedish Kennel Association has not recognised Saarlos, but as far as I have been able to check up recently recognised CSV.

So to travel through Sweden shouldn't be a problem as long as your dogs are vaccinated. Nobody takes your dogs away from you and most people wouldn't be able to separate CSVs from Shepherds anyway, they even think that my Shepherds are wolves now and then. Only tell them that you'4ve got grey Shepherds - that would satisfy anybody. Grey Shepherds are beginning to be more common now. If you begin to talk about wolf dogs to people who doesn't know anything about them, it's like pressing an unwanted button.

Sanna

Wolfsirius · 13-03-2002, 08:47

Hello, Sanna!

About one year ago we called to your ministry of agriculture
and there they said, THAT WE CAN'T even travel across the Sweden wth the wolfdogs.

One of my friend called this year again, and same answer.

It would be nice, if get some printed info "black on white" about this.

Greetings; Suski, from Finland

Pavel · 13-03-2002, 09:51

Hi,
according my information from my swedish friends is the problem in wrong formulation in law. Sweden have in this sense same law, like e.d. Norway. But in Norway is the text folowing (sorry, but its not the 100% quotation) "... is forbiden to own wolfdogs (exc. Saarloos and Czechoslovakian wolfdog) ...". In Sweden is same text, but without the notice in parenthesis. And its a problem, because "wolfdog" means in most language "hybrid" and really "wolfdog" as well. Swedish law was built against the "hybrids"
but momentaly is valid for our dogs too, because wrong formulation.

Pavel

Villulv · 13-03-2002, 15:48

OK, I'll try to find this.

Sanna

Per Olav · 13-03-2002, 17:26

Hi Pavel.

The Norwegian Animal Health Authority says in the Norwegian import
regulation of dogs and cats ( full english version: http://www.dyrehelsetilsynet.no/nors..._hund_katt.pdf ):
"Importation of dogs to Norway of the following breeds ( pure breed or
crosses) is prohibited: Bull Terrier, Fila Brasiliero, Tosa Ino and Dogo
Argentino. For breeds that may be confused with any of the above mentioned
breeds, e. g. American Staffordshire Terrier, it must be possible to
document with an original pedigree certificate and an ID-number that the
animal is not an offspring of prohibited breeds."
Saarloos and CSV are considered a pure breed and are therefore allowed.
Regarding SW there are som 10 species in Norway. Of CSVs the number is 1.
Main problem is vaccination (Rabies in particular) and quarrantining.

Regarding possession of wolf hybrids in Norway I'm doing a little research :-)

---
Per Olav

Villulv · 13-03-2002, 17:50

There are quite a number of so called wolf "hybrids" - as they are one and the same kind they should not be called hybrids but crossings - in both Norway and Sweden. I have met several of them. A hybrid is an individual who is crossed between species and is steril. If crossings wouldn=B4t be allowed, they wouldn=B4t be but they are. In Sweden we have the same prohibition you have stated here, Per Olav, but Saarlos is not accepted as a dog of the SKA. The CSV is though, as far as I have been able to find out.

Sanna

z Peronówki · 14-03-2002, 14:17

Quote:

became "half norwegian" last winter when I was one of the activists who
tried to hinder the norwegian government to wipe out one of our
few packs, but I´m sure you all know that they where shot down by
helicopter in Norway.

We heard about that. I was a suprised that they shot those wolves - so many
people tried to save them..

We got the same problem here in Poland this winter. Governour of Podkarpacie
asked for the permision to kill 50 wolves (he is of course one of the
hunters). But this time we won: Ministry of Environment dismissed that
request (it happened due to our protests). Scientists will check now if
there are really to many wolves in Poland (the numbers given by hunters
always depart from the truth...)

Quote:

As I´ve been working with biology subjects and studying the wolves, I´ve
detected how similar the spepherds and the wolves are, both
fysically but mostly mentally.
Sanna Folkeson

Kama (the owner of Fany) found a great M.A. thesis which tries to compare
wolves (from the wolfpark "Stobnica") and dogs. A big minus of it are
missing information about dogs (you can see the author have not sufficient
information about dog behaviour). But it's really worth of reading. The main
point is: although it's easy recognize wolf and dog, the differences between
them are small. I think if she will have any chance to insert in this thesis
also information about our wolfdogs it will be a "missing link" between
canis lupus and canis familiaris....

Greetings,
Margo

Per Olav · 14-03-2002, 20:00

Hi Pavel and the rest of the pack.

I've done some research on the subject...
A biologist dealing with wolves and dogs says *no* Norwegian laws explisit
prohibit hybrids/cross breeds of wolf/dog to be owned by human.
On the other hand the authorities are not i favor of wolf hybrids/cross
breeds, and therefore are using a law saying it is not allowed to keep wild
animals fenced unless special permission is granted.
Keeping wild animals fenced is only permitted with respect to zoos/animal
parks/wolf parks etc. A wolf hybrid/cross breed puppy is a result of the
breeding of a dog and a wild wolf, and therefore considered wild...
The only breeds explisit not allowed imported by law to Norway, are so
called "fighting dogs" as Pitbull Terrier, Fila Brasiliero, Tosa Ino and
Dogo Argentino.

---
Per Olav

08-03-2002, 23:24	#1
Per Olav Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 395	To all friends Hi. It's been an eardeafening silence on our group for a long while. Anybody still alive out there? :-) --- Per Olav

09-03-2002, 00:19	#2
Susan Junior Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 2	To all friends still here. just waiting for september so gordon and i can visit europe and wolfdogs. susan

09-03-2002, 00:52	#3
Per Olav Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 395	To all friends Hi Susan.

09-03-2002, 20:13	#4
Villulv Junior Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 42	To all friends Hi out there! As being new to this list, I would like to present myself a little, and I'm curious about who my fellow listmember would be. I'm "pack leader" of a German Shepherd pack, living in Sweden. Prime interests are biology, nature (wilderness), ecology, ethology, genetics etc, and especially wolves. I'm an eager activist in protecting the few wild wolves we've got in southern Scandinavia, living along the border of Sweden/Norway and became "half norwegian" last winter when I was one of the activists who tried to hinder the norwegian government to wipe out one of our few packs, but I'm sure you all know that they where shot down by helicopter in Norway. I'mstudying to become a Ethologist. As I'v been working with biology subjects and studying the wolves, I've detected how similar the spepherds and the wolves are, both fysically but mostly mentally. That insight has made me curious about other wolf-like dogs and this study has brought me to the Czechoslovakian Wolfdog and here I am. As I have begun studying this dog I've found that there is a very close relationship to the wolf, often 25-35% wolf blood, wich makes me believe that they are not as humanly manipulated as othter breeds and more like natures own design. Hopefully you'll help me to be enlightened about these beautiful and amazingly wolflike dogs. Hope to hear from you all. Sanna Folkeson

09-03-2002, 21:44	#6
Villulv Junior Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 42	To all friends Thank you Pavel, for answering. I was not really referring to behaviour of the dogs rather the fact that most "ordinary" dogs have a lot of dysfunctions that the breeding has let through and that is what I mean with manipulations. Having been studying genetics I'm aware of that the outcome would be as you presented. It appears to be a good idea to come and visit a camp. Would you be so kind and let me know a little bit more about them - where, when, how... ? Sanna

10-03-2002, 08:29	#7
Pavel Moderator Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 2,190	To all friends Hi Sanna and everybody, informations about summer camp are in section "Comming events" on our pages. How traditionally is the summer camp in Lazne Belohrad in northeastern Bohemia (near city Hradec Kralove). Accomodation is in very simply bungalows or in simply rooms in main building of camp. This year is camp from 27.8. - 9.8.2002 but you can be there to 10.8. where is in camp a CsW competition in training. More details we dont have yet. It comming soon and we will inform you on our pages. Pavel

11-03-2002, 13:46	#8
Marja Junior Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 7	To all friends Hi, I hope you're okay! I think the silence is a silence before the storm. In my case..i've been very busy and when i, in a sparse moment,am doing nothing, i desperatly want to keep it that way. I think it's the time of the year!But just wait untill spring! I think there will be more noise from everyone. And now i have committed myself to reply on this message i also want to ask you about the clickertraining.Do you still work with it? a friend, Marja.

11-03-2002, 23:33	#11
Villulv Junior Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 42	To all friends Hi Per Olav, thank you for responding! Like you, I am too a member of the ALPHA-group... , maybe we met at the yearly meeting last year? Maybe your CSV won=B4t be alone in Scandinavia in the future Sanna

12-03-2002, 11:52	#12
Minna Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 50	To all friends Hi Per Olav, Sanna and everybody, I am originally from Finland but live now in Switzerland (with 2 CsVs), and I know that at least in Finland there are some CsVs and one breeder. Could you Sanna tell me/us more about the law regulations in Sweden? Sweden is - as far as I know - the only country in Europe where all wolf dogs are banned including CsV and Saarloos. I have heard that when, for example we go for our summer holiday to Finland we can not even drive through Sweden with our dogs. That's why we take a Ferry from Germany and go directly to Finland. Is anything about to change in Sweden concerned this matter. Minna

12-03-2002, 19:41	#13
Villulv Junior Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 42	To all friends Hi Vuolle and everyone else! This is fortunately not quite true about the wolves or the wolf dogs. They are banned from breeding but not from living.There are some wolf crossings and wolf dogs living here, but we are not allowed to breed from them, but - and this is very important; the breeds that are allowed as breed in the FCI standards are allowed as dogs also to breed in this country. The Swedish Kennel Association has not recognised Saarlos, but as far as I have been able to check up recently recognised CSV. So to travel through Sweden shouldn't be a problem as long as your dogs are vaccinated. Nobody takes your dogs away from you and most people wouldn't be able to separate CSVs from Shepherds anyway, they even think that my Shepherds are wolves now and then. Only tell them that you'4ve got grey Shepherds - that would satisfy anybody. Grey Shepherds are beginning to be more common now. If you begin to talk about wolf dogs to people who doesn't know anything about them, it's like pressing an unwanted button. Sanna

13-03-2002, 08:47	#14
Wolfsirius Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 118	To all friends Hello, Sanna! About one year ago we called to your ministry of agriculture and there they said, THAT WE CAN'T even travel across the Sweden wth the wolfdogs. One of my friend called this year again, and same answer. It would be nice, if get some printed info "black on white" about this. Greetings; Suski, from Finland

13-03-2002, 09:51	#15
Pavel Moderator Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 2,190	To all friends Hi, according my information from my swedish friends is the problem in wrong formulation in law. Sweden have in this sense same law, like e.d. Norway. But in Norway is the text folowing (sorry, but its not the 100% quotation) "... is forbiden to own wolfdogs (exc. Saarloos and Czechoslovakian wolfdog) ...". In Sweden is same text, but without the notice in parenthesis. And its a problem, because "wolfdog" means in most language "hybrid" and really "wolfdog" as well. Swedish law was built against the "hybrids" but momentaly is valid for our dogs too, because wrong formulation. Pavel

13-03-2002, 15:48	#16
Villulv Junior Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 42	To all friends OK, I'll try to find this. Sanna

13-03-2002, 17:26	#17
Per Olav Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 395	To all friends Hi Pavel. The Norwegian Animal Health Authority says in the Norwegian import regulation of dogs and cats ( full english version: http://www.dyrehelsetilsynet.no/nors..._hund_katt.pdf ): "Importation of dogs to Norway of the following breeds ( pure breed or crosses) is prohibited: Bull Terrier, Fila Brasiliero, Tosa Ino and Dogo Argentino. For breeds that may be confused with any of the above mentioned breeds, e. g. American Staffordshire Terrier, it must be possible to document with an original pedigree certificate and an ID-number that the animal is not an offspring of prohibited breeds." Saarloos and CSV are considered a pure breed and are therefore allowed. Regarding SW there are som 10 species in Norway. Of CSVs the number is 1. Main problem is vaccination (Rabies in particular) and quarrantining. Regarding possession of wolf hybrids in Norway I'm doing a little research :-) --- Per Olav

13-03-2002, 17:50	#18
Villulv Junior Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 42	To all friends There are quite a number of so called wolf "hybrids" - as they are one and the same kind they should not be called hybrids but crossings - in both Norway and Sweden. I have met several of them. A hybrid is an individual who is crossed between species and is steril. If crossings wouldn=B4t be allowed, they wouldn=B4t be but they are. In Sweden we have the same prohibition you have stated here, Per Olav, but Saarlos is not accepted as a dog of the SKA. The CSV is though, as far as I have been able to find out. Sanna

14-03-2002, 20:00	#20
Per Olav Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 395	To all friends Hi Pavel and the rest of the pack. I've done some research on the subject... A biologist dealing with wolves and dogs says no Norwegian laws explisit prohibit hybrids/cross breeds of wolf/dog to be owned by human. On the other hand the authorities are not i favor of wolf hybrids/cross breeds, and therefore are using a law saying it is not allowed to keep wild animals fenced unless special permission is granted. Keeping wild animals fenced is only permitted with respect to zoos/animal parks/wolf parks etc. A wolf hybrid/cross breed puppy is a result of the breeding of a dog and a wild wolf, and therefore considered wild... The only breeds explisit not allowed imported by law to Norway, are so called "fighting dogs" as Pitbull Terrier, Fila Brasiliero, Tosa Ino and Dogo Argentino. --- Per Olav