Breed Character

[Hanka]

Hello RONA: I think, you don´t know "black part" of history of the breed. Of course, csw was dogs for tracking TOO. But on the borders was dogs, what had name "SUP". SUP are first litters from czech words. my english is bad for explaning it. Maybe Mirka can translate it. They was dogs in closed area alone, without soldiers-owners. When somebody wanted across the border to west Evropa, in kennel with wolfdogs ring bell and kennel was open. The dogs must run and find the person. It is in area between two fences. The action must be very quick, the person must have not time for climbing to second fence. The kennels was for example in distance 500m.When dogs meet this person, they must stop him. Of course, they bited him. Usually worked two dogs. Sometimes was person killed by dogs. But nobody from army spoke about it. Because it was "secret of state". And our present darlings-our wolfdogs did it too.....No only german sheepdogs.
But what was good-army did first selection for work character. Present breeders must continue, if we want have working breed. Not like in "some states". It is very sad for breeders in Czech, Slovakia, when we see wolfogs with tail under stomach in showrings. It is not WOLFDOG. It is parody to working breed. And titles from shows? They are NOTHING.

[loco]

Originally Posted by Hanka

But what was good-army did first selection for work character. Present breeders must continue, if we want have working breed. Not like in "some states". It is very sad for breeders in Czech, Slovakia, when we see wolfogs with tail under stomach in showrings. It is not WOLFDOG. It is parody to working breed. And titles from shows? They are NOTHING.

Hai Hanka,
I also believe that to much breeders only breed ,for showdogs,and does not care at all about the character.
But I also seen dogs,from Czech and Slovakia,with the tail on there belly.
It is not only,some states!!
But all of theme.
Where you can find breeders,with extreme scared dogs.
But the most people does not care about it,that is a little piece of the wolf!!they say!!
I only think it is a pitty for these dogs,to live a livetime with fear!!!
Greetings Martine.

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Originally Posted by Hanka

I wrote, in Czech are wolfdogs what are working character. Is not my mistake, in your country they are not.
Is it still the same working breed like in country(ies) of origin?

Hello Hanka,

I think two things are mixed up.
Firstly working dogs, secondly sports dogs.
A livestock guarding dog like a Cuvac, doing nothing apart from lying 24 hours more or less motionless within a flock is definitely a working dog.
A CSW in private hands doing defense work or tracking is nothing more than a sports dog.
Even if dog and owner are training on a very high level, like IPO 3.
You rightly mentioned that the CSW's were used as man stoppers at the iron curtain, like their "brothers" the Black Russian Terriers in Soviet gulags.
Fortunately both breeds don't have to do this kind of "work" anymore nowadays.
So we have to be very careful if we speak of the CSW as a working breed in the original sense.
This has nothing to do with the "work", I call it sport, you mean.
By the way, do you consider the BRT as a working breed?
One word to the bonitation.
I agree absolutely with you that it is necessary (fortunately we have the opportunity to do this twice a year in Germany), but the character test is highly trainable and I saw quite a lot CSW's in your country, passing the test, but not being able to cope with things of the daily routine, like standing within a crowd of people.
Tail up to the chin.
But that's another topic.

Michael

[Rona]

Originally Posted by Hanka

Hello RONA: I think, you don´t know "black part" of history of the breed.

I only heard the "soft version" of the story, i.e. that CSV worked on the borders on their own, but only stopped the refugees without hurting them.

Originally Posted by Hanka

But what was good-army did first selection for work character. Present breeders must continue, if we want have working breed.

Hanka, be realistic : how many civilian CSV owners need their dog to truly work with? How many of them have enough time and energy to spend on training and working that would be comparable with the military conditions? I suppose only a very small fraction of the whole population. You can't now expect CSV to be a "working breed" in the same sense as it was used in Czechoslovakian Army!

I think Michael is 100% right. Most owners use their dogs for sport and fun events (running, exams taking, tracking competitions etc.) and still it is better than nothing or just taking them to dog shows and collecting titles in order to claim more for the pups. CSV were designed and developed as a working breed and depriving the dogs of even the substitute of "working opportunities" would probably lead in the long run to degeneration of the true character of the breed.

Originally Posted by Hanka

Not like in "some states". It is very sad for breeders in Czech, Slovakia, when we see wolfogs with tail under stomach in showrings. It is not WOLFDOG. It is parody to working breed. And titles from shows? They are NOTHING.

I don’t agree. I think there are honest and responsible and lousy breeders and owners in every country where CSV are bred and owned. It’s not a matter of a state, but rather of the owner’s character and values and the relationship between him and his dog.

As far as bonitation is concerned I wouldn’t mythologize it either - I met dogs with fantastic bonitation codes, which I wouldn’t even dare to touch, and some without bonitation, or worse bonitation codes but with pleasant character and of friendly and predictable behaviour – neither shy, nor aggressive, who had nice pups of equally good character.

I personally think (I know that many of you will disagree, but I have the right to my own opinion, especially that I’m not a breeder) that there are lots of different types of good character among CSVs and applying one model of desired reactions makes no sense. Maybe it had in the millitary kennel but not now, when the dogs live in very versatile conditions and have very diffreent life paths. What’s more - a CSV used in dogotherapy should not even react in the same way as a guarding CSV or the one trained for OB! It depends what you use the dog for and what you expect from him. It's just a matter of common sense, nothing more. Personally I don’t believe in bonitations as anything more than the true info code describing the dog’s size and physical appearance!

Still I agree that it would be a great shame and waste if CSV were turned into shy dog shows stars only and their characters and natural working abilities were totally neglected and lost.

But coming back to the main topic of the thread: I’m against using CSV to work like they used to work in the military kennels without giving them the same training opportunities first. I consider this dangerous. Thanks Hanka, in a way you confirmed my point of view

[Hanka]

Oh- so long article for my bad english....
Of course, I am not idealist about common breeding and future of breed.
For me is bad, when only one criterium for breeding is beauty....Brrrr.
You are right, not much owners work very hardly. But good is mushing, agility and other sports. Important is- this breed must have to future character for it...If no, it will be bad for breed....If they will run in the showrings, character wil go down and down......What will be with character of breed 10-15 years later? I am worry about west Evropa, where are dogs for shows only. (Of course not all owners, like not 100% owners work with dogs here).
And don´t be worry- we don´t kill people here already by dogs.
It was FUUUUJ

[mijke]

Although this discussion become a bit of topic, I think it is a very interesting discussion.

Originally Posted by Hanka

For me is bad, when only one criterium for breeding is beauty....Brrrr.

I agree for 100% with Hanka! For a lot of breeds this criterion is/was a disaster

Originally Posted by Hanka

You are right, not much owners work very hardly. But good is mushing, agility and other sports. Important is- this breed must have to future character for it...If no, it will be bad for breed....If they will run in the showrings, character wil go down and down......What will be with character of breed 10-15 years later?

Every breed was bred for a certain purpose and breeding dogs were selected for the capability’s for this purpose. When breeders forget what these capability’s are and are only selecting breeding dogs for exterior it is very bad for every breed!
I know a CsW is not a kind of working breed like a GSD, Malinois , Belgium shepherds aso. But CsW’s have also working capability’s and they like to do a lot of things.
That’s why I am glad when people do “something” (sport or training) with their CsW, so they use the capability’s of their dog and good (according the standard)CsW’s also like this

Originally Posted by Hanka

I am worry about west Europe, where are dogs for shows only. (Of course not all owners, like not 100% owners work with dogs here).

Glad you are realistic, because not all owners and breeders of CsW in West Europe are only “show people”!
But I understand what you are meaning. It worries me also that sometimes CsW’s get excellent results in shows while they behave like a shy Saarloos in the showring. In east Europe I did also see shy CsW’s with tail under the belly, but they do not get excellent results in shows....

And although this is also a bit of topic:

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

One word to the bonitation.
I agree absolutely with you that it is necessary (fortunately we have the opportunity to do this twice a year in Germany), but the character test is highly trainable and I saw quite a lot CSW's in your country, passing the test, but not being able to cope with things of the daily routine, like standing within a crowd of people. Tail up to the chin. But that's another topic.

For me this is also very interesting, and I agree with Michael

Best regards,
Mijke

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Originally Posted by mijke

Glad you are realistic, because not all owners and breeders of CsW in West Europe are only “show people”!
But I understand what you are meaning. It worries me also that sometimes CsW’s get excellent results in shows while they behave like a shy Saarloos in the showring. In east Europe I did also see shy CsW’s with tail under the belly, but they do not get excellent results in shows....



Best regards,
Mijke

Though I absolutely agree with all of you, I would like to remark just one thing, I know several wolfsdogs that are far away from being shy but have their tails down in the showring (though not up to their nose) because they just don´t like the situation and show discomfort but not fear with that behaviour. Wolfdogs have a much more impressive bodylanguage than other breeds and I made the experience that some of them seem to show fear when they just don´t like the situation. In my experience there are dogs that love shows and dogs that hate them, the last I can understand very well because after a whole day on a big dogshow I am pretty fed up with all the crowds and noise and would without any doubt carry my tail down if I had one

[mijke]

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

Though I absolutely agree with all of you, I would like to remark just one thing, I know several wolfsdogs that are far away from being shy but have their tails down in the showring (though not up to their nose) because they just don´t like the situation and show discomfort but not fear with that behaviour. Wolfdogs have a much more impressive bodylanguage than other breeds and I made the experience that some of them seem to show fear when they just don´t like the situation. In my experience there are dogs that love shows and dogs that hate them, the last I can understand very well because after a whole day on a big dogshow I am pretty fed up with all the crowds and noise and would without any doubt carry my tail down if I had one

Hi Michael,

It was just a general example to illustrate that CsW with such shy behaviour in west European countries can get Excellent on shows..
I am well experienced enough to see if a dog behave like this because they don’t like the situation (other breeds can do the same), or if they are really shy and afraid. And I did mention the last kind of behaviour.

I also know when a owner is not a real alpha for a dog, a dog can behave like this in show or other new situations (where they feel uncomfortable).

I know owners who have problems in daily life with the dominance of their dog for example to other dogs (the owners have to less control and the dog can manage what he wants)
I did see the same people on the first time on show where the same dogs were walking with tail under their belly, the dogs did behave very shy when they were touched and it was not possible to show their teeth.

These owners did not understand at all that this behaviour has in basic to do with the same problems they did have at home with dominance. They do not realise that when they are a real alpha, these dogs do not need to solve all the things by their selves.

And I think this kind of real pack leader things are also a problem in West Europe, why CsW’s shows insecure and shy behaviour.

Mijke

[Mirkawolf]

Originally Posted by mijke

And I think this kind of real pack leader things are also a problem in West Europe, why CsW’s shows insecure and shy behaviour.
Mijke

This off topic discussion is becomming more interesting, than the original topic itself

As a Czech living abroad, I want to share my thoughts on what Mijke said. I noticed on the many events for Czechoslovakian wolfdogs (shows, bonitation etc.) organised here in Belgium, people often do not communicate with their dogs, apart of commands and they seldom praise them (both by words or with food treats). (Please note, by "people" I definatelly do not mean only Belgians).

For me, this is very strange and I believe this also creates rather big part of the problem of shy or unsure dogs.

If the dog does not get told, when its doing well or bad, does not get praised for doing well - then how is he supposed to know the difference? And also, what kind of relationship it can have with his master, if all he hears are only commands?

Perhaps I am wrong, and people talk more to their dogs, when they are in privacy, at home and nobody sees them. But they should know, that it is very important to talk to their dogs and praise them, even if they are in public! Because for the dogs it is especially important to be praised or talked to, when he is in place he does not know and maybe does not feel secure.

I do talk to my dogs all the time. When we are on a walk, when we are at home, when we train, or when we wait at the veterinarian, it does not matter. My dogs understand many words, that are not commands - because I say them always in the same situation and the same way - so they learned to connect them with events that are happening or will happen. But what matters most, is the communication itself - the fact that I am actively paying them attention and they can respond and react.
I do not leave for a walk without treats, and I keep praising and giving treats, even if my older dog is already 9 years old and she "should" obey without treats. It makes her happy and smiling to be praised like a puppy, so why not to do it.

Another thing is, that really very few people here will do something (anything) with their dog. Many of them got told by the breeder (sad, but true) that there is nothing you can actually do with CSW! But again, if the dog and its master do something together and the dog gets praised for doing well, then their relationship is much better and the dog follows and obeys much more happily. Also the master gains more trust from the dog.
It does not matter if it is agility, dog trekking, biking, obedience or tracking, what matters is that they spend the time actively together.

Unfortunatelly, often I saw here, that "actively together" meant for many people (not neccessarily Belgians, again) bringing the dog to the place, taking him out of the car only for the obedience, working with him - only commands, no talk, no praising and usually no treats) and then the dog goes back to the car where it stays for rest of the event, till they go home... So - socialisation on such event - almost zero. Activity with the owner and improving relationship - rather zero again. The only effect is that the dog gets really psychically tired from this, but if it learned something positive, that is hard to say.

So please people out there, do talk to your dogs. Do praise them viciously, no matter where you are and who is watching you. Pay him attention, take him out of the car, be with him. It will pay itself back in happier, more self-confident dog!

[Nebulosa]

Originally Posted by Mirkawolf

This off topic discussion is becomming more interesting, than the original topic itself

Now it is "in topic"

[lupis]

Originally Posted by loco

But I also seen dogs,from Czech and Slovakia,with the tail on there belly.
It is not only,some states!!

I am also confused about it because i hear always about working dogs and owners from czech. But i also seen dogs from czech very shy on shows.

I am looking for right dog for me now and my friends said me to look in czech. I looked for nice character and was interesing in Hanka puppies but it is not working dogs. My question is why people from czech advertise puppies from them as working dogs when they never working with dogs. I looked in database and Hanka your dogs have no exams. If you are working why you have no exams. Because also here by us are many breeders saying same: he is working but no results.

Another thing i am asking is about the theoreticians on forum. Many you are writing about working dogs working lines and breed charcter. I have questions about it but is here someone who makes exams with dogs and really working? I am also good in theory but i want to speak to peole who train wolfdogs. Someone of you?

[Hanka]

I prefer mushing, scooter. If you will know me, you will know it.We do classic sporttraining too. Sometimes we go to some races, but we don´t have exams. I have not so much free time for reall good sporttraining. If I want do it, I need for it more more free time. I can´t do much activites together, because day has only 24 hours. So my choosing is- more sport, less training.
But it don´t mean- my dogs can´t do classic protect training, tracking, obedience. They do it of course, but not on "high level", it is only hobby, "second activity".
I think, you must first think and second write....Your articles are very often attacked somebody. It is not good....I read your articles and I am surprised- somebody answer you.....

[Hanka]

And please- don´t write, what are working pups and what no. You don´t know my dogs, you know nothing about working dogs in Czech, about families or lines what are good for work.. If you know character of wolfdogs in your country, write about them.....

[mijke]

Originally Posted by lupis

I
Another thing i am asking is about the theoreticians on forum. Many you are writing about working dogs working lines and breed charcter. I have questions about it but is here someone who makes exams with dogs and really working? I am also good in theory but i want to speak to peole who train wolfdogs. Someone of you?

Here you can find all CsW with certificates :http://www.wolfdog.org/php/modules.p...e=certificates

And please also read again all the answers in this topic like for example the one of Michael: “I think two things are mixed up.
Firstly working dogs, secondly sports dogs.”

And for your info:
Yes, I also train with my dogs and do a lot of things with them. (more info you can find in articles on www.de-ursidae-stee.com )
And no, my dogs did not all kind of exams, I train my dogs just for fun because I like to do a lot of things with them (but I can assure you that is also sometimes heavy training!)

[Navarre]

I don't tink there are "working lines" in csw, because even with the best csw you can't achieve the best results in any activity (except tracks).

Ok, there are better csw (well balanced character, self confident)and worser csw (shy or too aggressive).

I think the main difference is if a dog can BITE (very sef confident and fearless). With a dog that bite you can do any sport activity, with a dog that don't bite you can't do any protection work.

So called "working dogs" are in Czech Rep, but are in other country too...in Italy we have many dogs with exams in protection work (some IPOs too), rescue dogs and so on.

For my (little) experience the dogs character is important, but the biggest part is to the owner. THIS is the main difference...in Czech for the people is normality "working with dog"!
In Italy this is an exception !!! Two weeks ago in Italy (Pavia) we organized THE LARGEST OFFICIAL BONITATION til 1994 (41 dogs) and although main part of dogs passed the test with good character, was clever to the judge that 90% of dogs has never work in any way.

Almost 90% of dogs weren't prepared at all for the bonitation but the results were overally good.
Good dogs aren't only in czech repuplic... only good owners are.

[Vaiva]

Originally Posted by lupis

Another thing i am asking is about the theoreticians on forum. Many you are writing about working dogs working lines and breed charcter. I have questions about it but is here someone who makes exams with dogs and really working? I am also good in theory but i want to speak to peole who train wolfdogs. Someone of you?

"Makes exams" and "really working" are different things. To work really with CsV you have to work at police or rescue or smth like that, but I am sure not many CsV owners have conditions to "really work" with their dogs in that way. But it doesn't mean they are not having sports with their dogs.

In my opinion, number of thepassed exams doesn't nesecery show a good, brave, seflconfident, stable dog. You should simply come and see the dog alive.

[freewild]

hi

about socialisation in french there are more and more CSW with good caractere at the show to bordeaux praticaly all the young CSW was a good caractere only 2 was not realy shure and only one was realy shy the both CSW doesn't "working"

in fact the owner feels responsability about thier dog and understand socialisation and obediance are so important

in french we can't working for ipo; rci on other else similary.the only working is "tracking ( FCI search and reascue )" obediance and agility

more and more breeders have a good work with there dog the futurs onwner have more nformation but more and mor onwners with out breeders' name do it puppy's as far as they could for monay and it's one realy problem for the futur .

It was just a general example to illustrate that CsW with such shy behaviour in west European countries can get Excellent on shows..
I am well experienced enough to see if a dog behave like this because they don’t like the situation (other breeds can do the same), or if they are really shy and afraid. And I did mention the last kind of behaviour.

actually we have nice CSW for the show and working but the number as CSW isn't the same than slovaquie or other original's country
i hope come for show and trainning a prepare obediance a tracking but many "working dog man " deosn't know the wolfdog's caracter " and it's one realy probleme

because when you hear "this sort of dog ...... no thing to do ..... "

the breed is realy new !! and this is a reality

in west europe we haven't your experience on wolfdog , we have one realy test because we will have sonia bognarona and stefik on show

on show champion french ( lyon )M. STEFIK Stefan (Slovaquie)

http://cedia.fr/ftp/Lyon2008.pdf


and on breeding's national sonia bognarova ( to confirm )

in fact on good test about le reality as the CSW in west europe

but yes ... we haven't IPO or else selection but too many woldog have caractere too working and the CBEI are not agree for this working

"Makes exams" and "really working" are different things. To work really with CsV you have to work at police or rescue or smth like that, but I am sure not many CsV owners have conditions to "really work" with their dogs in that way. But it doesn't mean they are not having sports with their dogs.

i'm agree with that because more owners have good condition to live but in france the owners take on CSW for one live's friend abd not for one working 's dog; in fact 5 % perhaps 10 % are some working dog but more more as that .

how many CSW work in the slovaquia or tchequie or yours country in reality ??

[lupis]

Originally Posted by Hanka

I prefer mushing, scooter. If you will know me, you will know it.We do classic sporttraining too. Sometimes we go to some races, but we don´t have exams. I have not so much free time for reall good sporttraining. If I want do it, I need for it more more free time. I can´t do much activites together, because day has only 24 hours. So my choosing is- more sport, less training.
But it don´t mean- my dogs can´t do classic protect training, tracking, obedience. They do it of course, but not on "high level", it is only hobby, "second activity".
I think, you must first think and second write....Your articles are very often attacked somebody. It is not good....I read your articles and I am surprised- somebody answer you.....

I not want to attack you - maybe you dont understand me. Sorry for my english i will try write better....

I see you like you dogs and you are many time witht them. i only want say what you write is not work but fun with dogs. All owners make the same and they dogs are not working lines because it is fun.

Originally Posted by Hanka

And please- don´t write, what are working pups and what no. You don´t know my dogs, you know nothing about working dogs in Czech, about families or lines what are good for work.. If you know character of wolfdogs in your country, write about them.....

I have good friends CLC breeders and they know lot about lines. They also say like me: dogs with no work and sport results are not working lines. dog not working is not working dog because it is no sence.

Originally Posted by mijke

Here you can find all CsW with certificates :http://www.wolfdog.org/php/modules.p...e=certificates

thank you but i know wolfdog very good...

Originally Posted by mijke

And please also read again all the answers in this topic like for example the one of Michael: “I think two things are mixed up.
Firstly working dogs, secondly sports dogs.”

I write: some breeders write they have working lines and their dogs are not work dogs but also not sport dogs. For me it is stupid to write about them working lines. It is all i want to say.

Originally Posted by mijke

And for your info:
Yes, I also train with my dogs and do a lot of things with them. (more info you can find in articles on www.de-ursidae-stee.com )
And no, my dogs did not all kind of exams, I train my dogs just for fun because I like to do a lot of things with them (but I can assure you that is also sometimes heavy training!)

I like your photos and posts very much. For me you and you dogs are really working dogs. you make no stupid advertisment but just work. Breeders like you are for me breeders of real working lines. Maybe not now because for it you need more generations but i hope you know what i write...

Originally Posted by Navarre

Good dogs aren't only in czech repuplic... only good owners are.

..and breeders who write they breed the only working lines... I agree

[SarahAnn]

Hi there! I have been researching the CsW and was wondering what these dogs are capable of. I've read about their need for physical and mental exercise - and their ability to get into trouble!
Right now I'm a college student getting ready to graduate in May and I live in Savannah, GA in the US. I've thought about getting this breed but I would rather know fully what I'm getting into.
I've read that they can be trained for protection or to guard property, however not every dog is a good candidate for this and there are several notes stating that they do not communicate to their people in the usual manner. Does this mean they don't bark much? Do they howl? I understand they have body language that you will learn to interpret and that they can get "bored" with repetitive training techniques.
I have been looking for a dog breed that could go with me just about everywhere but this breed keeps getting confused with the wolf dog in the US where people just breed a wolf to a husky/malamute. This is very annoying. I would love to hear from CsW owners about their dogs and their personalities!
I have a cat that has become a 12 lb bully to my room mate's 25 lb dog! She was fostered as a kitten in a house with both dogs and cats and gets along fine with both. She bugs my room mate's dog because she wants her to play.
I would also like a dog that can travel. I have started with my cat at a young age and she does just fine in my suv. I haven't flown anywhere yet but she's much better than when I first got her. I love dogs but don't have the time for one yet. They are great companions and I miss the family dog we had growing up. He was a Dalmation but we knew the second someone was on the property. I was thinking about getting a dog for personal protection but I'm not sure if the CsW would be good for this. I would hope to be alerted when someone is around. My room mate's dog barked maniacally when someone tried to break into our rental home! The poor thing was so freaked out. She's small but has the bark of a much larger dog (thankfully).
If you have any advice or experiences you would like to share I'm all ears!

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Well I can say about our 5 CSW that all of them guard and protect without being trained for it but they mostly started this behaviour when they were almost grown up. All of them bark though not a lot (what we wouldn´t allow anyway). They come with us to ervery place we go and travel a great lot all over Europe, doing this they sleep in the car. They do a lot of filmdog work under difficult conditions without any problems.

I do a lot of mantrail training with three of them, mainly my youngest one Falin Zlatá Palz. She and her mother Gerda did exams of the Swizz mountain rescue and Falin will be into professional work on this about end of this year if everything works out as planned, our trainers are very satisfied.
In general I think this kind of work and every rescue work is the field they can be really some of the best. But you can use them for every kind of dog sports, they are allrounders.

They need a trainer that is able to adapt his training to the specific dog and doesn´t follow fixed shemes. For me they are very easy to train because I get bored very quickly and I appreciate their very high learning ability, but trainers that want to follow their rules can´t cope with them and their work very often ends not being succesfull because the dog refuses the work.

BUT to be a good companion a wolfdog has do undergo a straight, consitently training, has to be socialised properly, has to learn to stay alone, has to be taken out to many different situations and surroundings and all of this in a higher amount than common breeds.
They are very lively and active, they hate to be left out. In the first two years they can be real pain in the necks and they will stay like this if you don´t fit their needs. They have a lot of very funny ideas and you will need a lot of humor to cope with them.

Ina