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Old 15-03-2002, 17:39   #1
Xhrista
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Quote:
If you need any arguments against "top breeding" in its negative results you only
have to have a closer look at the sarloos wolfdog who is in its origin very
likely to the csw.
That cann't because the Saarlooswolfhond is mixed with another wolve as
the CSW,and the most different thing is that a SWH is sociaal to other
dogs.This story goes because they wanted more a working dog in germany.
There were from the beginning many different types of the SWH,some of
this dogs can be trained,but not all,that dogs go away as housedog or
they were killed.

Quote:
The sarloos has extremly high problems with imbreeding know
because they got PRA in their breed and because it isn´t a dominant gene they
didn´t realise it in time
That's true,but we haven't HD.

Quote:
According to Claudia they now seem to have two
different types of PRA one of them goes together with a Smallbrain-Degeneration
(I hope this is the right english translation).
There are more types,some will be blind at 2 years some at 8,but the
type with the smallbrain-degeneration is only be seeying in germany and
not in the Netherlands and there were a lot of more dogs with PRA,maybe
it's another sickness,they didn't know.

Quote:
When the did some genetic
research on them some years ago the scientist asked them if they had divided the
blood sample of only one dog because he never before saw such a small genetic
base.
It's a very small base,but most of the blood comes from outside the
dutch association,so it's not the total genetic base.And if you take a
look 8 generations back in the line of the CSW,it lookes bad too.

Quote:
I don´t know how they will solve this very bad problem without crossing
them with another breed what isn´t allowed by breeding regulation.
That's why some people don't follow the rules,when you sometimes come to
shows,you need the book to see what's the SWH and the CSW.
I don't mean that it is necessary to cross with another breed.

I'll hope you all can read it,

Christa
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Old 15-03-2002, 19:30   #2
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Dear Christa,
I´m apologizing for writing about all saarloos, but the problems in germany are
horrible and it´s a terrible lot of PRA for so few dogs.And the origin of most
german dogs are the netherlands. Both breeds are as far as I know german shepherd
crossed with wolf, even if the wolf that was used is a different type.
Regards Ina
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Old 15-03-2002, 23:32   #3
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Hello Christa,


Quote:
There are more types,some will be blind at 2 years some at 8,but the
type with the smallbrain-degeneration is only be seeying in germany and
not in the Netherlands
These "german" Saarloos Wolfdogs, who showed these signs, were born in the
Netherlands with 2 exceptions, where the parents are from Netherlands!!!
And there is also a bitch in Netherlands, who also has PRA and this
smallbrain-degeneration, as far as I know! Maybe in the Netherlands they
won't be shown, while in Germany we show our dogs.
And all these dogs were almost blind with ca. 3 years!
The others, who were blind at the age of 8 are "normally" in
body-construction.
So it seems to be two different types, that is what the scientist at the Uni
Bochum told me! and there were a lot of more dogs with PRA,maybe it's another sickness,they didn't know.



Quote:
It's a very small base,but most of the blood comes from outside the
dutch association,
Is there any blood from the dutch association in Bochum? That must be new!

Quote:
so it's not the total genetic base.And if you take a look 8 generations back in the line of the CSW,it lookes bad too.
That is true! "Rep all over!"

Quote:
That's why some people don't follow the rules,when you sometimes come to shows,you need the book to see what's the SWH and the CSW.
Oh yes, also true.

Quote:
I don't mean that it is necessary to cross with another breed.
...
Regards
Claudia
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Old 15-03-2002, 23:40   #4
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Quote:
These "german" Saarloos Wolfdogs, who showed these signs, were born in the
Netherlands with 2 exceptions, where the parents are from Netherlands!!!
====I mean a dog from the Dutch association.

Quote:
And there is also a bitch in Netherlands, who also has PRA and this
smallbrain-degeneration, as far as I know! Maybe in the Netherlands they
won't be shown, while in Germany we show our dogs.
And all these dogs were almost blind with ca. 3 years!
The others, who were blind at the age of 8 are "normally" in
body-construction.
So it seems to be two different types, that is what the scientist at the Uni
Bochum told me!
and there were a lot of more dogs with PRA,maybe
====I know some dogs that have it at 2 years and they look normal.

Quote:
It's a very small base,but most of the blood comes from outside the
dutch association, Is there any blood from the dutch association in Bochum? That must be new! so it's not the total genetic base.
=======There is blood of 9 dutch ass. dogs,and 5 of them have PRA

Gr.Christa
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Old 19-03-2002, 02:04   #5
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Quote:
That cann't because the Saarlooswolfhond is mixed with another wolve as the CSW, and the most different thing is that a SWH is sociaal to other dogs.
???

Quote:
That's true,but we haven't HD.
Christa
? http://people.freenet.de/whitefang/pedigree.htm
The only large dogs that are almost "HD-free" are sighthounds.....

Greetings,
Margo
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Old 19-03-2002, 12:13   #6
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Hello Christa,

Quote:
====I know some dogs that have it at 2 years and they look normal.
Uiii, that could mean that there are possibly three types?! I hope not!

Quote:
=======There is blood of 9 dutch ass. dogs,and 5 of them have PRA
Sorry, I forgot them! That is very good that they have "spend" the blood. I
hope that the scientist at the Uni Bochum will be soon successful.
Greeting
Claudia
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Old 19-03-2002, 12:13   #7
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Hello Margo,

Quote:
???
The Saarloos ARE social to other dogs. If you see a meeting with many of
Saarloos (purebreed ), it is very obviously how social they are. We
have had a Saarloos Wolfhond-seminar at Mai 1995. There were about twenty
Saarloos and two other dogs (Rotti-mixed and another). There were for exaple
Günther Bloch and Dr. Hellmuth Wachtel as referees (I think most people know
them) and ALL the referees said that they didn't have EVER seen such a
harmony between dogs and especially during a seminar!!! The only dogs that
tried to make trouble are the two other dogs!

Quote:
? http://people.freenet.de/whitefang/pedigree.htm
The only large dogs that are almost "HD-free" are sighthounds.....
What Christa means is, that there is no HD-D or HD-E by Saarloos. The worst
case is HD-C what also is HD + - . And that are only a few dogs.
So there is really none problem in the Saarloos Wolfhond. I hope it doesn't
chance in future because of the incross of the CSV!
Greetings
Claudia
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Old 19-03-2002, 15:04   #8
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Hi Claudia and everybody,

That's a very interesting issue. I have been wondering also why Saarloos
seems/IS less aggressive towards other dogs than CsV. More social might not be a
correct word , since dominance challenging is a part of the normal social
behavior of the dog. All CsVs I know are very social too, but they also want to
know their place in a hierarchy (pecking order).

I have heard the same thing to bee said in generally of wolf dogs/hybrids: they
are often dominant toward other canines ( here, hybrid isn't actually a correct
word either since it means an animal which is a crossing between two different
species. A wolf and a dog are genetically the same species - and not two
different species like for example a horse and a donkey.).

regards, Minna
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Old 01-08-2002, 11:47   #9
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Quote:
Btw. Saarloos is far from being a DOG, it´s more wolf than our wolfdogs
and it has almost none practical use.
Mirka,
Can You please explain why SWH is far from beiing a DOG, why it is more a
wolf than the CSV and what do You mean bij "none practical use"?
Has every dog in Your opinion to be a working dog?
Did You never heard about compagnion dogs?

Quote:
This all is not problem of the breed, hybrids or wolves. This is all about
silly people making troubles at bad place and moment.
Fully agreed whit this statement .

I'm not saying to change the name but it is a fact that the GSD also has
wolfblood and that his former name was Alsatian wolfdog and that they
changed the name because of the public opinion about wolves during that time

Gr.
Roger.
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Old 01-08-2002, 13:35   #10
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Hello Mirka,

the last wolf into a Saarloos was in the beginning of the sixties,so its
not true that this dog is more wolf.And I am sorry that I most say
it,but there where very agressief TWH's on the WW dogshow in
Amsterdam.That is not good for the name of the breed and is not
exceptable in the europeen countries with a lot of people and dogs in a
small space.

Christa
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Old 01-08-2002, 13:46   #11
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Dear Christa,

it's my personal opinion that Saarloos is more wolf, and i insist on it. But i say it not because of percentage of wolf blood in the breed itself, but of the way it acts - it's more shy, less (if ever) trainable and it's character is really different.

About aggressive CSWs at Amsterdam, i can only repeat what i already said - the dog is visiting card of it's owner, and it's only
on the owner, how he manages to educate and train the dog so it doesn't bother their surroundings. Also, aggressive dog should be kicked out from the show circle and shouldn't be judged at all! If the refferee is willing to accept aggressive dogs in his circle, such one only supports bad character wolfdogs to get into breed and also makes bad image to the breed itself.

I hope you do not think, that we, breeders and keepers of CSWs here in Czech Republic are responsible for dogs in Amsterdam. Every aggressive and not well educated dog makes bad name, but mostly to the owner, not to whole breed. I didn't notice, that all the aggressive poodles and dashhunds (who attack my wolfdog all the time) would be considered bad breed because they do this.

Something "funny" in the end. My friend's wolfdog, a 50 kg male, was attacked by "peacefull" retriever and he lost tip of his ear, before he even managed to react. If i should judge all retrievers according to this one, i'd think they are worse than pitbull.

Mirka
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Old 01-08-2002, 19:59   #12
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Yes Ann,
there are Saarloos wolfdog people here.
I have two of them, and YES, you can train them.
As a matter of fact they are very smart dogs, with a lot of patience You can
learn them almost everything.
Patience, patience, patience is the keyworth.
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Old 01-08-2002, 20:07   #13
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Quote:
I am curious - Are there Saarloos people on here and do they think the
breed has almost no practical uses like you say?
Hoi Ann,

Yes , there are saarloos wolfdog people here.
With a lot of patience, You can learn the saarloos wolfdog almost
everything.
They are not guard dogs, they will not attack buth you can teach them almost
everything if you can understand them.
Patience is the keyword.
He is as much dog as the CSV.
Both are FCI recognized breed, the SWH even longer than the CSV.

Gr.
Roger
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Old 01-08-2002, 20:45   #14
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Ann,

Surely not the old methods of forcefullness like they did 15, 20 years ago
with the Belgian or Germans shepherds in Belgian clubs to train police dogs.
It works the opposite by the SWH.
Reward the good behaviour, (clicker methode is possible)ignore the bad and
patience , patience patience.
I don't know if it says anything to You but we call it here Symbiose method.

Roger.
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Old 01-08-2002, 21:13   #15
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Yes what Roger said is true,you can train them,but the question is of
they follow up the commando's :-)).I must say that he have two dogs from
Germany and I have two of the dutch assosiation and that are different
lines.
I trained my bitch now half a year and there are things she likes to
do(following,stay down,yumping)and things she never do on the
training(apport,searching)but at home very well.
She also never plays at the training.

Christa
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Old 01-08-2002, 21:24   #16
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Hello Ann,

I trained my SWH in the positief way,but sometimes I must use the older
methode.
And I can say my dogs don't let strangers into the house when we are not
at home,we have heared that from people when the tryed to come
in.(sometimes the backdoor is open)

Christa
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Old 05-08-2002, 09:19   #17
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When I was going to the training in the beginning with mij Saarloos,she
doesn't want something to eat,so a lot of things I could not teach
her.When I came home ,she want eat and I try to do the trucks and she
does everthing perfect.So I think my Saarloos is more wolf than I
sometimes think.

Christa
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Old 07-09-2004, 14:15   #18
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I live in (United States) and I own a Saarloos Wolfdog. I had him shipped from Europe when he was a puppy. Anyway, you want more info on Saarloos Wolfdogs? OK!! Saarloos wolfdogs, here in America, are not registered by any Kennel Club, including the AKC! Sucks, doesn't it? They are really rare, but some dog crazy people, like me, know about them and buy Saarloos Wolfdogs from Europe. The Saarloos Wolfdog is a reserved, playful, independent breed. They're not suitable for urban life and are also best suited in a country or suburban home. They bark at strangers, animals, and other dogs. It is a very strong-willed dog, and is best suited to experianced dog owners. Even though I'm 13 Years old, I train, play with, and take care of my Saarloos Wolfdog all by myself. Saarloos Wolfdogs are pretty devoted to their family, so they must not be left alone for long times, they get pretty lonely. They tend to be good with children in the family, as long as they are not hyper little children that play rough with a dog. The Saarloos is easier to train than the Czech Wolfdog, and Saarloos's are friendlier too. I've heard that these two breeds were banned from UK kennel clubs. That sucks for some Europeans, but I bet if we get more Saarloos's in America, the AKC might register them. Anyway, SAARLOOS'S ARE NOT BAD! I own one, as you know, and he is not very mean at all! He barks a lot, growls, and nips, but he isn't a flesh-tearing dog! Pit bulls, Rotties, Dobermans, and German Shepherds can be meaner! Well, in America where I live, the Saarloos is a rare, but unique find. Everytime I walk Spyro (my saarloos wolfdog's name), everyone is astounded to see a beautiful dog.

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Old 08-09-2004, 11:20   #19
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Interesting. Where is this dog from? (Kennel)

-Suski
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Old 08-09-2004, 12:22   #20
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Do you also keep Checkoslovakian wolfdogs? I think your description is very classic of a Saarloos. Go on training him, but dont demand too much.
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