Saarloos mixes by "Crying Wolf" kennel (CSV red colored)

[monita]

If everybody just speaks, but nobody does anything against it, nothing will change.

[Shadowlands]

I've just had a quick look on the database and, by my reckoning, Galiba has sired about 17 dogs who have then produced around 200 and then another over 100 in the next generation. This is serious if you are talking of 'blocking' any dog with Galiba's blood, with no concrete proof of a problem.

[yukidomari]

Originally Posted by Shadowlands

I've just had a quick look on the database and, by my reckoning, Galiba has sired about 17 dogs who have then produced around 200 and then another over 100 in the next generation. This is serious if you are talking of 'blocking' any dog with Galiba's blood, with no concrete proof of a problem.

yes, and it'd be nice if galiba's owner would simply give DNA and clear it up! it is they who are really holding all other potentially affected dogs and breeders 'hostage'..

[Shadowlands]

I know it is Yukidomari, but nobody seems able to do anything about the fact. Also, say she does eventually test and is found to have crossed - what does that mean for all the people who have bought, and in some cases bred from, these dogs in good faith believing them to be pure? It is a nightmare

[yukidomari]

Originally Posted by Shadowlands

I know it is Yukidomari, but nobody seems able to do anything about the fact. Also, say she does eventually test and is found to have crossed - what does that mean for all the people who have bought, and in some cases bred from, these dogs in good faith believing them to be pure? It is a nightmare

it is

unfortunately in my opinion if these dogs are proven to be mixes there is no other choice but to petition for the revocation of pedigrees for these dogs and any progeny of these dogs, or at the least, for WD to label them as such if the FCI or national KCs can't be persuaded..

Not doing so makes a mockery of the pedigree system at its very foundation, which is keeping accurate purebreed pedigrees with only outcrossing granted when approved by a committee in charge, not by random individuals who are able to hide their misdeeds for however long.

terrible for all involved, regardless.

[admin]

Originally Posted by Shadowlands

I've just had a quick look on the database and, by my reckoning, Galiba has sired about 17 dogs who have then produced around 200 and then another over 100 in the next generation.

It is a SERIOUS problem. The red Wolfdogs were born two years ago. Nothing was made official - two years were LOST because the French breeder decided to clear it directly with Crying Wolf; because of it it was hidden. It is not a accusation towards the French breeder but a simple conclusion. Nothing was reached since the Hungarian breeder do not want to cooperate. And in that time the Galiba offsprings spread among the Wolfdogs.

So nobody stoped it when there were 17 offsprings. But it is better to stop it when there are 200 offsprings than to stop it later when there will be 400 CsW with Saarloos blood spread all over the world.

And IF Galiba or any other dogs in his line are Saarloos-mixes the whole line will get remark "Mixes" even if there will be 1000 of them. I think exactly the Galiba offspring owners should help to solve the problem. Before is too late and more dogs will be "affected"... I'm worried because the will to clear it seems to be missing not only by Crying Wolf breeder but also by the puppy owners. What make me personally even more "suspicious"....

Originally Posted by Shadowlands

This is serious if you are talking of 'blocking' any dog with Galiba's blood, with no concrete proof of a problem.

Yes, you are right. But there is a proove: red Wolfdogs born in France where two parents come from Crying Wolf. RED - with red nose. This colour DO NOT EXIST by Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs. AND both parents must be "carriers".
So there are some other breeds (according the photos it was the red Saarloos) mixed with CsW by Crying Wolf.
The only "problem" is to localize when it happend.

So there are some problems:
Which Crying Wolfs are "under investigation"? When the Saarloos mixed with CsW? When it happend?
It would be not fair to ban all Crying Wolf dogs and their offsprings because some of them can be really purebreed.

[yukidomari]

Originally Posted by Admin

I think exactly the Galiba offspring owners should help to solve the problem. Before is too late and more dogs will be "affected"... I'm worried because the will to clear it seems to be missing not only by Crying Wolf breeder but also by the puppy owners. What make me personally even more "suspicious"....

Hi, from what generation dogs do you need? those directly born from Galiba, or can it be the generation after, or so?

[admin]

Short time ago I received interesting message saying that the problem can be not Galiba and his litter mates but his offsprings and other dogs born by CW in that time.

One of the east European breeders wrote me that strange things happened with Galiba. AS reported there were more breeders who covered their females with this dog but ALL the females stayed empty. The ONLY litters (with one exclussion) were born by Crying Wolf. Miracle happend because Galiba was announced as sterile.

Maybe it the explanation... Because "affected" would be Sibir (father of the red dogs in FR) and Volos (father of the Saarloos alike dogs from France). It will be also explanation why the Crying Wolf breeder is so much afraid about the DNA tests. Because it can show that Galiba is not the father of Sibir?

[admin]

So short: what should be checked on the beginning is - if the father of Sibir is really Galiba.

If not than: if the reall father is the Saarloos.

Of yes - than how many CW dogs are sired by the Saarloos living by CW.

[Shadowlands]

So, does that mean that Galiba is the only suspect one from his litter? His litter mates are not in question? I had the impression that it was the parents of Galiba that had to be checked. Sorry for the confusion

Surely someone out there can get the owner of Galiba to help sort this out? Maybe even just one of the owners of his 'reported' offspring - if it was my dog, I would be demanding to know...

[Hanka]

Galiba has normal colour and normal mask. I know him personally and it is normal czech. wolfdog.
His owner is veterinary doctor, she is normal, clever and not blind. If she will have saarlos mix, she will be first, who will ask breeder.....
In time, when Galiba was born, was first saarloses in Evropa very far from breeders of czech. wolfdogs....
So this what you write here about him is nonsens.

[Rona]

Originally Posted by Hanka

Galiba has normal colour and normal mask. I know him personally and it is normal czech. wolfdog.
His owner is veterinary doctor, she is normal, clever and not blind. If she will have saarlos mix, she will be first, who will ask breeder.....
In time, when Galiba was born, was first saarloses in Evropa very far from breeders of czech. wolfdogs....
So this what you write here about him is nonsens.

From what I grasped from the above discussion the problem was connected not with the identity of Galiba, but whether Galiba was the true father of his pups. Should his owner deposit DNA material of Galiba in Laboklin for comparison with the DNA of his offspring (like the owner of Juri ZP did a few months ago) she would solve a lot of problems and show goodwill. Being convinced about the dog's true parenthood and, as you say, being

veterinary doctor, normal, clever and not blind.

she shouldn't have a problem with this. Giving close to 200 owners and many breeders peace of mind is worth a little sample of Galiba's blood! To many people this would be a matter of honour and responsibility.

[Hanka]

Hello Rona,
I will write about my two females, because I don´t want to write about not my dogs. I absolutelly have not reason to distrust, Galiba is grandfather of my females.. Cause I reacted to thread of admin, about "not suspected" Galiba in pedigree of my pups.
But you are right.....From Galiba´s owner can be friendly, if she will give DNA. But I am worry it will not be. I asked her about it for Lorry already....And I was not succesfull.

[Rona]

Originally Posted by Hanka

But you are right.....From Galiba´s owner can be friendly, if she will give DNA. But I am worry it will not be. I asked her about it for Lorry already....And I was not succesfull.

Doesn't such approach worry you at all? It would worry me if I bred on Galiba's descendents... A person who does not want to cooperate in such circumstances apparently has something to hide.

Breeding (unlike puppy making) is not a "private issue" - it's all about responsibility and respect towards dog owners and other breeders.

[Hanka]

But I wrote you, I am sure my females are granddauhters of Galiba.I have not reason to distrust..... I asked owner of Galiba about DNA for my other friends....
I am only one owner of dogs with Galiba in pedigree. I am not his owner, breeder,.... I try to help to my friend, but in real it is not "my work".
I think your question has other adresee. But I see, they don´t react.
Lorry knows, what I did and what I tried to do in this "case".....
But no result.....

[Rona]

Originally Posted by Hanka

But I wrote you, I am sure my females are granddauhters of Galiba.I have not reason to distrust..... I asked owner of Galiba about DNA for my other friends....
But no result.....

I appreciate your attempts and attitude very much.

But my questions was not personal. Doesn't it worry you as member of the Czech Breeding Club that a stud owner in such circumstances may plainly say NO and nothing can be done about it? Even if hunderdes of people were affected and/or the breed put at risk? (Well, I'm sure dogs don't mind )

We're talking about genetic identity, but what if this was a matter of some serious gentic illness spreading in the breed ??? Shouldn't some changes be introduced to the breeding regulations?

[Hanka]

Aaa, Rona, I think, it is question more for Slovak club as guarant of breed....Because we can do nothing in it case by oficial way....
I can´t answer you it....

[Shadowlands]

Originally Posted by Rona

I appreciate your attempts and attitude very much.

But my questions was not personal. Doesn't it worry you as member of the Czech Breeding Club that a stud owner in such circumstances may plainly say NO and nothing can be done about it? Even if hunderdes of people were affected and/or the breed put at risk? (Well, I'm sure dogs don't mind )

We're talking about genetic identity, but what if this was a matter of some serious gentic illness spreading in the breed ??? Shouldn't some changes be introduced to the breeding regulations?

I agree with you Rona, and thank Hanka for her attempts to clear this issue up.

Something needs to change to make it difficult for people to refuse a simple non-invasive test such as DNA sampling when the identities (and as Rona says, it could be lives in the future, who knows...) of so many dogs are at risk. And for the Czech club, of all clubs, to have no power is very worrying for the future of our beloved breed.

[CDaniela]

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Why?

[Rona]

Originally Posted by Hanka

Aaa, Rona, I think, it is question more for Slovak club as guarant of breed....Because we can do nothing in it case by oficial way....
I can´t answer you it....

Seems Solvaks keep waiting for Godot

I think this is a matter of each national Kennel/Breed club. On receiving a document granting breeding rights (or at bonitation), the owner should be asked to sign a document stating he is obliged to provide DNA material of the dog if any doubts appear concerning his/her parenthood (+ a list of reliable labs provided). If he refused, he would be banned from the club and his dog would lose breeding rights, so the pups couldn't be registered. This would also mean the dog would not be able to participate in dog shows.

Tough, but I belive necessary in the light of what has been lately happening